The following was an email I recived from a Atheist Email Newsleter. It was a response to an email, broken down question by question, I thought it was quite interesting and decided to drag it here. The "" are questions asked by the emailer, and below is Blair Scotts response.

-"We can have free will and divine intervention at the same time."

If the divine intervenes in our lives, then our choices are irrelevant. If the divine intervenes then we do not have free will. You cannot have it both ways - either we have free will or we live under divine intervention.

If god has the power to intervene and does not - then he is guilty. If god cannot intervene - then he is impotent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship - even if he exists.

-"Apparently, you only believe in what you can see."

Using the term 'believe' loosely, I believe what can be proven. You?

-"Don't compare earthly parents in every way to an all-knowing God, who is far more powerful than Satan ever will be."

It wasn't a comparison - it was an analogy. Regardless, I will compare your Bible-God to earthly parents. The bottom line is that your Bible-God, as a "parent," is a complete failure. He purposely kills his children. He lets his children die when he has the capability to stop their death. He lets his children become ill and diseased when he has the ability to stop it. The Bible-God would be thrown in jail for child abuse and child negligence if he weren't a pretend character in a fairy tale book.

-"Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan."

Why did Satan need to be defeated by Jesus? Is your Bible-God so impotent that he couldn't beat Satan? Didn't you say that your Bible-God was more powerful than Satan? It sounds to me like Satan is kicking your Bible-God's arse.

But why did Satan need defeating in the first place? I think the only thing you know about Satan is what you hear in church from your mythology teacher, I mean preacher. Let's take a Satan pop quiz.

1. What does satan mean?
2. How many times is Satan mentioned in the OT?
3. How many times in the OT does Satan act without God's permission or guidance?

-"The God in the Old Testament is slightly different than the God in the New Testament."

So God evolved? Or is he a different god altogether?

-"He sent his only begotten Son into the world to save our souls from eternal hell, which is where all humankind belongs."

So everyone that lived before Jesus is in Hell? If Jesus is the only way to Heaven - then everyone that lived before Jesus didn't even have a chance of making it. Abraham, Job, Lott, Solomon, Adam and everyone else all went to Hell because they never knew Jesus. Babies that die before going to church go to Hell because they don't know Jesus. Feral children raised without knowledge of Jesus go to Hell because they don't know Jesus. Mentally retarded children and grown-ups go to Hell because they can't understand the concept and don't know Jesus.

-"However, because of the crucifixion and resurrection, our sin debts have been paid in full."

So basically you've skirted all your responsibilities off on Jesus. You can do whatever you want and it's okay because Jesus died for your sins and you are forgiven. How is that doctrine moral?

-"I find it odd that you seem to believe in the stories of a "so-called evil God" in the Old Testament but then refuse to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed."

Why do you think I believe in the stories? Oh, you mean you don't get sarcasm and reference? Oh, my bad. Allow me to put it in black and white since you don't understand referencing: I don't believe in your Bible-God. I don't believe in your Bible-Satan. I don't believe in your Bible-Jesus. I don't believe in Adam and Eve, the Global Flood, the Burning Bush, the Exodus, the Virgin Birth, the resurrection or the Second Coming. The Bible is a book of allegories, fables and legends, written by men.

I don't refuse to believe that Yeshua existed. There is no evidence to prove that he did, so I don't believe that he did at this time. If evidence were to present itself, then I would rethink that position. You do realize that Christ is a title and not a last name, right? It should be the Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ. It's a shame that atheists know more about Christianity then Christians do. Of course that's why we're atheists - we know more about Christianity.

-"So you believe the bad but not the good? That is ignorance."

No, that would be stupidity - not ignorance. What is stupid is coming away from my last email thinking that I believed in the "bad God." Ignorance is a lack of information - one is ignorant when they do not have all the information - like you when it comes to the information about Christianity and Christian theology.

"God does not or has ever condoned evil."

-Really? Remember what I said about your ignorance? Let's just start with one example: Job. Who do you think sent Satan to mess with Job? Who do you think gave Satan the guidelines in how to mess with Job? Who do you think told Satan to step it up and increase the pain and suffering to Job? I would suggest that you read Job and see who the real evil villain is in that story.

-"Why do you think he sent Jesus to Earth for our salvation if he did not love us?"

Why did it take him so long? If your Bible-God is so powerful, surely he knew what was going to happen. If he did, then why waste all that time? Why the Global Flood where he killed all of mankind (save a family) and all of the animal kingdom (save two of each species)? Why all the torture, killing and mayhem? Was God just getting his evil-doing out of his system?

-"Do you actually believe the complexities of this universe are completely random?"

Yes. You actually believe that an invisible man in the sky created the Earth in six days to include only two humans. You believe that this all-powerful being lacked the foresight to create Eve right away because he should have known that Adam would be bored. You believe that this all-powerful being couldn't find Adam & Even in the garden after they ate from the apple tree; that he had to wander around looking for them? You really believe that?

-"How can life create itself if a house can't even build itself?"

As much as Christians love strawmen, you'd think their God was a Sacred Scarecrow. If you don't know what a strawman argument is, then you shouldn't be debating.

-"So, I guess atheists sit and wait for the trees to chop themselves up and construct a house for them?"

So, I guess Christians sit and wait for their God to do it for them? No? Oh yeah, they have to do it themselves because their God doesn't exist.

Please explain how the analogy between a house and a life works. What aspects of a house are comparable to a life form? What part of a house lives and breathes and reproduces? A house is obviously intelligently designed - by man - we see it built. Have you seen your Bible-God build a life form? Have you witnessed this building so you can positively say that it is intelligently designed? I can prove a house is intelligently designed - can you prove that life is?

-"There has to be a blueprint for everything that is created, and there has to be a creator."

Let me rephrase that sentence for you so that it speaks the truth. "There has to be a creator of everything because I want there to be. I'm too scared of my own mortality so I need a Creator to give me purpose and make death less scary for me."

"Every person has their destiny laid out before they are even born."

Oh... so we don't have Free Will, then. It's good to know that you agree with me that we don't have free will. I don't agree with the whole destiny thing, but at least we agree that free will is a fraud invented by apologists to take the blame of evil off of their god.

"If God did not allow bad things to happen, how could we grow as people? How would we mature?"

We're not talking about minor things here. We're not talking about letting your teenage son learn his lesson about women the hard way. We're talking about the wonton destruction of human lives. We are talking about major catastrophes and disasters. When people are killed by evil acts and they are killed by "acts of God" (AKA natural disasters) then how do they grow? They're dead - they can't grow and mature. The bottom line is that you have now admitted that your Bible-God lets it happen. He knows about it and lets it happen. Your Bible-God has foreknowledge of a crime, a murder, a catastrophe, a disaster and he lets it happen. Your Bible-God is responsible.

"Even earthly parents have to allow their children to make mistakes."

Um... didn't you reprimand me for using that analogy?

As I said above, making mistakes is one thing; killing people is another. The parents that let their children die with full knowledge are guilty under our legal system. Parents that kill their children are guilty under our legal system. If your Bible-God allows death to occur, especially on the scale of natural disasters and events like 9/11, then he is guilty of aiding and abetting known criminals, criminal negligence, accessory to the fact and many other charges - both federal and state criminal charges.

"Face it, you all know deep down inside there is a God."

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? If that's the case then why are you emailing me and going through all this trouble? If we all know deep down inside that there is a God, then we're not really atheists? If that is the case, then we recognize God and we get to go to Heaven. So why are you wasting your time?

"Prayer does work, by the way, for people who love, trust, and give their lives to the Good Lord. I am living proof of that. "

Prove it.

"Atheists are not heard by God. He doesn't know you."

The more and more we talk the more and more we find out that your Bible-God is not all that powerful and not all that knowing. You make your Bible-God sound like an incompetent nincompoop.
"Remember, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of which is "Thou shalt not kill". Doesn't sound like an evil God to me."
Have you ever read the entire Bible? I don't think you have. Soon after the delivery of the Decalogue, God sends Moses on a killing rampage to destroy an entire tribe. God tells Moses to kill everyone except for virgin girls - they are to be taken as wives. They kill men, women and children. What part of "Thou shalt not kill" does your Bible-God not understand?

"If everyone followed these ten simple rules of love and moral behavior, there would be less violence, less disease, less hatred."

And yet in every historical instance of a Christian theocracy, where the Decalogue was followed as you suggest, the society failed and failed miserably. The society ended in bloodshed and destruction. The strict adherence to the Decalogue causes societies to fail. Let's look at the Decalogue and see how they'll work in society if they are adhered to strictly as you suggest.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

It's interesting to note that it doesn't say, "There are no other gods." Yahweh is basically saying that there are other gods out there - he just wants to be the number one god - the Zeus of Judaism. Anyway, what would you have those people of other religions do in your society? Will you force non-Christians to become Christians? This commandment cannot work under our Constitution and is in direct violation of our freedom of religion. What does this commandment have to do with love or moral behavior? Are you suggesting that only Christians are moral people?

2. Thou shalt not worship false idols or make graven images... blah blah blah...

What does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that Buddhists are immoral? Are you prepared to get rid over everything that people worship and to disregard religious freedom?

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Again, what does this have to do with love and moral behavior? Are you suggesting that we get rid of freedom of speech?

4. Remember the Sabbath...

Christians violate this law every Sunday. The Sabbath, as recognized in the OT, starts Friday night and ends Sunday morning. The Sabbath is on Saturday - not Sunday. So every Saturday that you work you are violating the fourth commandments. Every Sunday that you go to church you are violating the fourth commandments. Do you know where the idea of a Sunday Sabbath came from? It wasn't the Bible. The Sunday Sabbath came from a bunch of men in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea. Yep, a bunch of men overrode your Bible and moved the Sabbath to another day - a day not sanctioned by your Bible-God.

Of course we'll have to stop everything on Sunday - no working at all if we are to follow this strictly. Electricity will be shut off because workers can't man the power stations. Hospitals, rescue squads, police stations and other emergency services will be shut down - so if anyone is injured on Sunday - it's in God's hands. But that's okay, because you said above that everything happens for a reason, so if God lets people die on his Sabbath - then so be it. Who are we to question his evil acts?

Of course we'll have to worry about criminals because the corrections officers will be home on Sunday and no one will be guarding the prisoners. We'll have to stay at home and won't be able to go anywhere because nothing will be open - no gas stations, no stores, no supermarkets, no train stations, no airports, no bus terminals, no fast food joints. That means you can't enjoy that Sunday buffet at Sizzler or Golden Corral anymore - the waiters, waitresses and cooks will be at home.

Then there are the economic impacts of not allowing work on Sunday. 8 hours of lost wages each week for those people struggling to make ends meet. 8 hours of lost income for businesses and communities. 8 hours of lost taxes for governments. That's a lot of money (in the billions) each Sunday that we stay home in our dark houses with no TV or radio - no electricity or natural gas - nothing.

What does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

5. Honor thy father and thy mother...

That's okay to live by, but parents aren't always honorable and sometimes they don't deserve honor. Will we force children to honor their parents if their parents abuse them physically, mentally or sexually? Will we force the 13yo girl to stay and honor her father that sneaks into her room every night to molest her? Yeah, I guess we will since we want everyone to obey these commandments. We'll let a few live a life of horror so that the Christians can have their theocratic way.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

Great rule to live by, but it's not original. Long before the Decalogue societies were striving for this. Of course if we adhere to it strictly... We get rid of the death penalty. We get rid of our military because a nation that doesn't kill has no reason for a military - either defensive or offensive. We stop the slaughter of animals and all become vegetarians. Of course God gives us plenty of reasons to kill even with this law, doesn't he? Why bother with this law if God is going to give us a bunch of reasons to kill, anyway? Women that are seduced by men other than their husbands are to be killed. Prostitutes are to be killed. Women who practice black magic are to be killed. Strangers (non-Christians and infidels) that enter the temple are to be killed. Children that disobey are to be killed. People that work, even the simplest task, on the Sabbath are to be killed. Of course there's plenty more, but why continue. With all the reasons to kill people, seems rather silly to have commandments number 6. So we have a contradiction - we can't kill, but we're given reasons to kill.

We don't need this one, anyway - we have laws against murdering. Laws against murdering existed before the Decalogue.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Ok, I can see this for married people - makes sense. This doesn't have much to do about love. Just because one doesn't have an affair doesn't mean one loves their significant other. Many people hate each other but feel too guilty to have an affair. As for moral behavior... are those that have affairs more likely to commit a crime?

How do we reconcile this in our new Ten Commandments following society that you've schemed up? Because of number 4 we can't kill adulterers, even thou the Bible says to (at least the woman, anyway). I guess we'll have to set up house monitors and track everyone so we know if their copulating outside their marital bed. Yep, so much for civil rights - we have to track everyone to know if they are being faithful or not.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

Ok, I can see the morality in this one, but it was a law long before the Decalogue in other societies. What took the Jews and the Bible-God so long to catch up to the rest of civilized society? To make this happen we'll have to really step up either our prisons or our social justice and social action. We'll have to get rid of all the homeless and hungry - we don't want those people stealing apples from the farmer or a bottle of formula for their starving babies living in a cardboard box.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. AKA: Thou shalt not lie.

I guess the love thing works a little bit, and maybe the morality a bit - but not enough to really justify 100% compliance. Sometimes lying is okay, though and sometimes it is even necessary. Compassion leads to a lot of lying - we lie about a medical patient's condition so they feel better. We lie about how someone looks so that we don't insult them. We lie about how precious that really ugly baby looks so the parents don't feel bad. Well, so much for the politicians - I guess we'll lose a representative government... Actually, I think I'm inclined to agree with you on number 9 - I think a brutally honest world would be awesome. Imagine how much fun it will be to finally tell that really ugly kid down the street, "Dude, you are one ugly kid." Or when our wives ask, "Honey, does this make me look fat?" We can say, "Sweetie, everything makes you look fat because you are fat." And we can be brutally honest because God told us not to lie - under any circumstances.

10. Thou shalt not covet... blah blah blah

Well, so much for capitalism. I guess we'll have to move over to socialism or communism. Christian Communism - has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Why would I covet my neighbor's ox, anyway? I have a nice car to drive - he can keep his ox. Of course in a non-coveting society I wouldn't have that car - we'd both have an ox. Um... what does this one have to do with love and moral behavior?

"So, with your frail views and misconceptions about so many things, you have failed to convince me there is no Almighty Creator watching us from afar."

I wasn't trying to convince you that there was no almighty creator. You were the one that contacted me trying to convince me that there was one. I was just responding. I'm still waiting for the proof.

"I will pray for your salvation."

You and a thousand others. It doesn't bother me -so pray away. I don't mind if you waste your time.

Blair Scott, Director
Atheism Awareness

PS: and to really tick some people off, if you are a Christian and you have already been over to the Booty Call thread, GUESS WHAT! your a sinner!!!! lol

Why the FUCK would you do that? Haven't we had enough bullshit and wasted bandwidth over this topic?

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Why here? :rolleyes: Keep that stuff where it belongs - in the Aethist Newsletter.

Would you copy and paste Xterra posts to THIER newsletter and expect them to get all excited about it?

What's the difference between God & Ian?
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God doesn't think he's Ian.

I think it is excellently written. He not once tries to name call or otherwise degrade the guy asking the questions. He simply states his views and backs them with facts. If only our threads could stay that way.

Hey can you send me a PM with a link to that newsletter.

If you knew Ian then you would know he doesn't think he is god just a king of some sort.

"oh snap"

Is that a reference from Legally Blonde?

"Oh snap." Right up there with "Oops I did it again." :rolleyes:

Amen, PNUT! Who needs yet another thread of pissing about God, or a lack thereof.

Oh Snap! predates legally blonde as a slang term.

One listing from the rap dictionary :

snap
(n) a form of verbal jestering. Also French and English speaking Africans especially in Dakar and Paris say 'oh snap' in two contexts. 1) 'oh snap' if you get bagged on (snapped on) and 2) meaning 'oh shit' as in 'I didn't know' or 'I forgot something'.

From nerdslut.org March 2002

"Oh Snap! -- an acknowledgement of something extraordinary, unusual or wickedly cutting.

PM me with that link also....

Would you like me to list every other post in the ALR that is not XTERRA related? Now I could understand that kind of rant if I posted in the general forum or the clubhouse, so how about you

We all know there are plenty of Atheists here on the board. These topics are always a way to stir the pot.

While I applaud your attempt to stir the shit... The post was just too damn long. I kind of lost interest after the first few paragraphs. When I scrolled and saw how long the post actually was, I just said to hell with it. No one wants to read a post that long. Especially if the material is nothing new.

It might be better to just post a link to the site you copied the material from instead of pasting everything here.

If you want to stir up the shit, it's probably better to keep your paragraphs short and to the point. Then include the links. It's easier for other people to quote you and the anger and hatred can flow into a more organized and easy to follow thread.

Just a thought........

I would have copied it if possible but it was from an email. I agree with you on the part that it is long.

Metalicrap, there is no truth in what your atheist friends said in their newsletter. None of those responses made any sense. None of those responses refuted anything in the Bible. For someone who claims we Christians follow blindly, you sure do follow blindly behind all those other atheists leading you by the nose.

Once again, in summary, no truth behind anything they responded to in that newsletter. None, zip, nunca, etc...

Life must smell great for you following behind everyone so often. Have you ever been accused of being a leader, or having leadership potential. I think not.

Someday, you will be faced with the decision. Good luck.

The Bible...you atheists can bend it, twist it, misrepresent it, misinterpret it, whatever....The bottom line is; truth is truth. Whether you believe it or not. Whether you grasp it or not. Enough said by me.

Forgive me Ian for I have wasted bandwith.

The same could be said of those who are not atheists.

True, we do have our fair share of Christians who do those very same things, David Koresch and the Branch Davidians come to mind among others.

Blah, bl....

Wait, if I finish this, it actually means... shit... I DO give a damn.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!

Time to have some real fun now.
Your silly.

-"Metalicrap, there is no truth in what your atheist friends said in their newsletter"

Thanks for the nickname, and well first before accusing like you christians like to do I would like to state some facts. 1. I have never stated that these people are my friends, nor do I know them or have associated with them. 2. What is truth but a lie told by men. 3. Its odd how you spend that first statement stating there is no truth but yet in the entire post you fail to prove that.

-"For someone who claims we Christians follow blindly, you sure do follow blindly behind all those other atheists leading you by the nose."

Are you ready for another FACT! ok, hope you can handle this. I never said I was an Atheist yet you say I follow them. Im more of a "freethinker" (free thought, ever heard of that) I have a tendency to work off of physics and chaos laws. Its odd how I can follow people that I dont even associate with. Your post is getting better by the moment.

-"Life must smell great for you following behind everyone so often. Have you ever been accused of being a leader, or having leadership potential. I think not."

Oh life does smell great. Knowing of my own potential and what I will create for my future, having something that others in america lack today. The ability to think and act on my own. To follow others is sure death, to lead others is to have the followers kill you. By not leading and by not following I am at peace. Ever read the Tao De Jing? Great book.

-"Someday, you will be faced with the decision. Good luck."

What descision? You mean the decision that I will have to make when it comes down to how I want to create the next Nuclear Bomb?

My advice to you, get some balls, state some facts, think before you speak, and realize that there is more to life than kissing your bosses ass. Have a great day.

Prove it....lol

See what I mean he went straight to name calling and has no facts to back his arguement. Just that we are all blind followers.

Sounds familiar

I never said I didn't follow Christ blindly. I do have the balls to admit it, unlike some. Everyone wants proof. There are far more scientists who have proven the events in the Bible did in fact happen than there are scientists who agree that evolution MAY have taken place.

Once again, for those who are not filled with the spirit (meaning believers), you will NEVER get it or understand it.

And since you obviously have proof that there is no God, then please prove it. Why is it us Christians are the ones who need to prove there is a God? Funny how millions of Christians, millions of Jews, and millions of Muslims believe in the same God, and we are wrong. Yet only a handful of you atheists are right. Hmmm?

Why don't you prove there isn't a God? It should be so easy to do according to you all.

I'm waiting.................................

I'd like to see the data that support that.

(Note - if you're talking just events, like Jesus actually living, that's one thing. However, how many of the mysteries/miracles have they proven? i.e. walking on water, the burning bush, rising on the third day)

Quote:

And since you obviously have proof that there is no God, then please prove it.

What was it Reagan said... "Trust, but verify."

No, I don't consider myself atheist in any sense.

So you finally admitted your an idiot who follows blindly, and you even go as far as to prove it with your "Scientist" statement as well. I guess there's a God after all!