Shooting at Virginia Tech

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266374,00.html

Probably not a single kid that doesn't own a Cell Phone and have access to an SMS type service, which maybe could have been used by the University if the technology existed to do a Mass SMS message to the kids.

Sounds like the guy imploded...and decided to kill people...methodically it seems.

If he had two pistols, all he had to do was avoid the movie version (where each is fired alternatively until both are empty)....and merely use one to shoot, and the other as reserve, so one is always ready to fire...most people only shoot one handed accurately anyway...the other is for show.....that would prevent most kids from attemting a rush, etc....and allow alternate reloads, etc.

If the guy described above as a Fox reporter was cuffed because he looked asian......I suppose next there'll be a civil rights case.

:rolleyes:

I feel SO bad for all those kids, and their families...if the gunman took his own life, I hope he screwed it up and it took a long hard time to die.

CNN said it started over a girlfriend. he shot her and the RA who tried to break up the fight. said he used a 9mm and a .22cal pistol in the shootings.

My little sister is a student there - kept me more up to date than CNN. Looks like the Brady Campaign is already spreading bullshit - saying that the VA law allows people to buy AK-47s and Uzis without limit. Hmmm...too bad FEDERAL law has limits. Those are both Class III firearms under the National Firearms Acts. You have to submit finger prints, a form signed by the chief law enforcement officer, anda photo, all in duplicate, plus a $200 tax for each weapon. Then you have to wait for the ATF to get around to approving the transfer - after the FBI checks you out. Yeah, there's no limit at all. Fucking liars.

Yep, the anti-gun liberal wankers will use this to try and push some more bullshit gun laws through. However, I think this incident proves that exactly the opposite should be taking place...less restriction.

I have an answer: No one is allowed to concealed carry on school/university grounds. That leaves everyone defenseless at the mercy of Mr. Psycho Shooter. If you were allowed to carry on school/university property, someone surely could have taken the prick out before he had a chance to kill that many people.

Incidents like this PROVE that the "safety" politicians want you to believe gun control laws offer is nothing more than an illusion. The crazy shooting spree assholes will find a way to kill people, one way or another. There are more sane people than there are crazy people. Having armed citizens everywhere who know how to safely operate firearms is a way of mitigating the damage/casualty factor caused by the crazies. An armed society is a polite society.

X2 and five trucks for you too!!!!!

Tim

PS- The finger pointing has already started, en force!!!!

This is truly tragic. Blacksburg was my home for 4 years and I truly love that place. The scariest thing for me was that I just spent the weekend there with my wife and our best friends. I even went for a run on Saturday and passed right by Norris Hall, running through campus. My heart goes out to all the parents who have lost loved ones. This is a sad day for all Hokies.

Semi Auto AK's are not Class III. Plus they hand them out at the gun show for like $320 a piece. Same as buying a Hand Gun here in AZ at least, if not even easier. Not sure if they do a semi-auto version of the Uzi, if they did it would also not be considered Class III.

Thing is - anyone taking the Class III argument needn't bother - the guy was using hand guns, which can be found at any pawn shop / gun store and in most states (Including AZ) can be purchased and taken away same day after a quick call to the Feds by the dealer.

Disregard...wrong guy.

Sad, really sad.

Yes, but when you see AK-47 or Uzi, most people automatically think fully automatic, angry Muslim guy, or Rambo, etc. The average person doesn't think scary looking, one bullet per trigger squeeze, pretty tame weapon. All I ask for is a little truth in advertising - and the AK-47 and UZI are both full auto in their unmodified forms. The semi-auto ones are either modified after the factory or are made from modified plans for the original. In reality, I could probably do more damage with a bolt action .22LR and a trip to Lowes or Home Depot.

The media in this country is such complete scum.

They wasted no time using this tragedy to push one of their political agendas... gun control.

The bodies of the victims weren't even cold yet, and the cable TV channels already had commercials advertising that political theme and agenda for their shows. No one even knows how the killer acquired the weapons.

I won't be turning in my handguns under any circumstances.

I'm an NRA life member. For you other gun owners, the NRA is our best line of defense. This one is going to become more political than any incident before it, so be ready to write letters to your congressmen. Liberals in this country are ready to eat up what the biased media will tell them.

I really want to know how this idiot obtained his firearms. I'm guessing/hoping that an existing law was violated to point out the ineffectiveness of gun control laws.

That's the part the anti gun scumbags always leave out - very few crimes committed with firearms are done so with legally obtained weapons.

Enforce the laws we have and uphold the 2nd amendment.

And seriously, when the time comes write those letters. I know I will. The day this country disarms its citizens is the day we become a completely socialist republic.

There is word that the killer was here on a student visa from China. It hasn't been officially verified by authorities yet. They still have not released his name.

As far as I know, student visa holders are not allowed to legally purchase firearms.

Let's not forget the eBay people that are going to hell too:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150113282640

So I wonder if Imus will be back in on Tuesday??

But seriously I am all for letting students carry weapons on campus. Our Campus Security do not carry weapons and I doubt they would be able to do anything about an event like this. Even just working in the dorms I know for a fact that our CS would not be able to handle something on this scale they have a hard enough time handling domestic fights. Lets just hope that no one tries to do a copy cat of today.

I agree completely un-called for!

"Item removed." Looks like Ebay agrees with you

What was it? eBay took it down.

It was like "vatechmassacre.com" or similar - there were a bunch of them, some up to $250,000.00.

Here's their response to MY 'Question to Seller": "You are a worthless piece of @#$%, who's capitalizing before the bodies are even cold."

gdsenterprise1 - "Sorry to disapoint you. You do not know me and passing such a judgement speaks volumes as to who
you are. I feel sorry for you. I really do."

Passing judgement? Hmmm...then why'd your listing get removed?

EDIT: here's their profile: http://myworld.ebay.com/gdsenterprise1

Oh, and look at all the losers trying to do the same:
http://search.ebay.com/virginia-tech_W0QQfromZR40QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQsbrsrtZd

It seems like that may be possible. Cho Seung-Hui, resident of the dorm, was the shooter, or possibly one of two, they're not sure if he had help.

(edit) Nope, legal resident from Korea.

Wow - now I work in the domain industry and have snapped up some names before based on news, but that is pretty fricken sick to stoop that low.

According to Fox News the gunman was a 23 year old VA Tech student from South Korea.

I'm still in complete disbelief that this tragic event happened. To think I was a student only 2 years ago... my prayers go out to the families and friends of every student, alum, and supporter of VA Tech!

I'm in complete disbelief at the media coverage (I guess I shouldn't be that surprised).

I've already heard various media scum mention things like "healing" when none of these families who have had people murdered have even had time to come to grips with what has happened... or even grieve.

It also seems the European media is blaming everyone except the lowlife maniac who committed these murders.

Apparently Charlton Heston is also at fault according to these sick, twisted fucks.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,477686,00.html

Do you have a campus police force?

I went to a smallish, agricultural & engineering university. It had its own police force.

My roommate for two years while I lived off campus was a part-time student, part-time campus police officer. He had been trained at a state law-enforcement training facility, and he carried his sidearm and badge with him to class when he was off-duty.

Even though he was in the US legally with a student visa and a residence in VA he can not purchase or posses a weapon. This is just another example of how moronic limiting legal ownership has become. When the police determine how the weapons were obtained they need to incarcerate those responsible for a life sentence just as with columbine....illegal weapons!!!!! So what happens when only criminals and cops have guns???? I have to sit in my own home in fear and wait 5-10 minutes for the cops to finally show up??? Mean time my wife is raped, im dead, and all my stuff is gone!!!! Justice......maybe if the incompetant cops there did their jobs this wouldnt have happened!!!!

Tim

PS- See my quote for further information

What, do you live in Bogota?

The guns used were illegal. They had filed off serial numbers.

They are now saying he was a resident alien.

If that is the case, he is allowed to legally purchase firearms.

Foreigners on student visas are not allowed to buy and own firearms.

But, as Samuel stated, the serial numbers were removed, so the firearms were illegal.

There is still a lot more info that will be coming out.

I'd like to know what was written in the note he left in his dorm room.

*a-hem* Did Jefferson misspell tyrants?

I went to the same college Grayham did, and knew of at least one teacher who carried a small gun on him. I hated sitting in his class knowing it was there. At the time, I'd never seen a gun up close and personal, and was just plain scared of them. However, given the tragic events of yesterday, I wonder how things might've been different if just one of the teachers or students had been trained in using a weapon and had fired back?

I go round and round on this with my husband all the time -- would we really be better off if we all carried weapons on us? Or would we turn into some version of Wild West movies, and just constantly be shooting at each other? I don't know. Situations like this, though, make me want to reconsider carrying.

Either way, whether you're for gun control or not, it doesn't take away from the fact that one person killed 32 others rather easily using firearms. Whose to blame? The person, the campus, the local law enforcement? Who knows, so many things could have gone down differently and there is going to be major fallout all around.

Our world and society is changing at a break neck pace and not for the better.

I truly worry about the world my daughter is growing up in.

As a Legal immigrant I was able to purchase firearms, just needed my Green Card # on the FBI forms. Plus it took like 30 mins before I could walk out of the place with my deadly weapon rather than the 10 or 15 for Citizens!

I see both sides of the gun argument. Coming from the UK where the Police don't even carry guns and gun crime is crazy low, I see that making it impossible for people to own them works. But while everyone here has one, then I'll keep hold of mine too!

Just learned that a freshmen from my town was one of the students killed.

Can someone pull up the domain name information? I think that's available, I just don't know how to get it. Lets turn the heat up on this scumbag.

From VT message board:

That's all I needed to know. The law was broken. Further proof that more gun control laws will be entirely ineffective. Even if every citizen was required to turn in their weapons, do you honestly think the criminals will give up theirs? It'll just become another aspect of organized crime like the drug trades.

It's really too bad this guy shot himself...he deserved the public crucifiction...then again, that's a trial that would have been the only news for months. Maybe it is better after all.

I won't take away the magnitude of the crime. It was a horrible thing that happened. It's just that I already know there are going to be serious 2nd amendment related repercussions stemming from the event.

I blame Cho Seung-Hui. That's it.

As far as gun control, I think the "bad guys" are so far in the vast minority it's not even funny. Police and the rest of the model citizens by far out weigh the "bad guys" (my guess would be like 99%). The "bad guys" have guns so I'd rather see the vast majority have guns as well giving the "bad guys" hardly any chance instead of simply being sitting ducks like we saw yesterday.

Madman, once again I'm with you on youre media take. It's a complete joke. The finger pointing practically started while the whole shooting was still going on. The best was when they continue to blame things like video games and entertainment (i.e. TV, movies, etc.). :rolleyes: Someone has to put out a cartoon with the gunman on one side raising his hand with his guns around him saying "It was me. I did it." and a bunch of politicians and media on the other side blaming everything else but him.

I'll tell you exactly what most likely would have happened. Some lives would have been saved.

There has already been examples of students or teachers stopping maniacs in schools on killing sprees.

In the late 90's a Vice Principal stopped a shooting spree with his gun....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Woodham

A few years back a few students stopped a shooting rampage at the Appalachian School of Law....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

The media refuses to discuss incidents where guns save lives.

The Salt Lake City Mall shooting a couple of months ago was stopped by an off duty cop walking around the mall. A guy who happened to be there and had a gun on him.

Plus all the media vermin had to have their morning shows from the VT Campus.

There is really no need for that.

Someone said something on my sports talk radio yesterday that had us all thinking. If this happened last week, would Imus still have a job? I'd would have to say yes, definitely. Sad media times we live in.

names of victims are being slowly released.... this is a pretty impressive list of accomplishments that will be missed in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-Hui

Seriously disturbed...

The gunman suspected of carrying out the...seling service.

I figured a lot of those kids are on myspace. Right now I can't even get to www.mydeathspace.com to see who had profiles.

I don't think the first girl killed yesterday morning was his girlfriend as the media had reported.

I think he was a creep who was most likely stalking that girl or one of her friends.

Some more info on the killer....

Click for article...

His Creative Writing teacher described him as strange and troubled.

He stalked women and set a fire in his dorm room, yet he was not expelled.

Sounds like he was given too many chances to me.

I was wondering the same thing.

But then again, we are talking about modern college administrators here.

There are hints coming out that he may have been on anti-depressant medication too.

Just read his myspace profile.. Look at his blogs. Some of the comments on there are fucking disgusting. Pathetic.

Why can't people like that be shot? :rolleyes:

You knew this would happen....

Since the killer is not white... the Asian American Journalists Association is telling the rest of the media they can't say "asian" or mention his ethnicity in media reports.

Only they can use the term "asian" and set themselves apart for racial reasons in order to subject themselves to special treatment.



Al Sharpton hasn't chimed in on the issue yet, so it's not clear if he can be called a "nappy headed ho" either.

No comment yet from the White American Journalists Association.

Ok, sorry, that was funny

Yea, he filed the damned things off himself.

Why would he do that though? Has the receipt they found been linked to the actual gun? I am sure it is the receipt and even if the gun was purchased legally (I thought visa holders could only legally purchase long arms?) it doesn't really matter now does it?

Either way there is going to be all kind of finger pointing at guns, at video games, at the school etc.

Basically in the end all the fingers will point to everything except at the one wacked out kid who went nutz and killed 32 people. Because you know that angle can't really be used for any political gain in this country and it can't easily be explained away by all the pundits.

Hell if it really was over a girl, then Shakespeare is our best "correspondant" on the matter.

Just to add. The media really makes me sick.

An excerpt from CNN "Gunman identified as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old English major from South Korea"

So he just got here from South Korea huh? I guess if I kill someone it will read "from Italy" though I've never even been there?

Fuck, he's lived in suburbia legally since he was 8. How the fuck is he from South Korea now?

What a travesty.

Be prepared to get much sicker about the media coverage over the next few days to a week.

No shit, it's going to get much worse, and it'll be spun for every political purpose you can imagine.

Also look for this to be a campaign weapon for Obama and Clinton, among others who don't believe in 2nd amendment rights.

...And they'll get votes for it to from the ignorant masses.

This topic is going on over on N4W as well. One member reported that in a discussion a lady told him that guns should be banned. He countered with Koreans should be banned. It makes about the same amount of sense. I thought that was priceless.

The leftists and their allies in the media were already making this a gun control issue before the police secured the campus yesterday.

The Democrats stand to lose a lot if they make an issue of gun control. It is one of the reasons they lost the Congress in 1994. It is one of the reasons Al Gore didn't win a couple of more states in 2000.

The Democrats only won Congress in 2006 because they ran as moderates and conservatives. They didn't run as liberals and leftists.

The new Democrat Senator from Virginia is very pro 2nd Amendment (his aide was arrested for bringing a gun into the Capital building a couple of weeks ago).

The media will be pushing big time for gun control. It doesn't mean the Democrats will play along. Some will, many will not.

Some Republicans (RINO's) may go along with it.

Quote:

One member reported that in a discussion a lady told him that guns should be banned. He countered with Koreans should be banned. It makes about the same amount of sense. I thought that was priceless.

That's a funny reply.

hind sight is 20/20, mourn for those lost, learn, and move on.

If only it was that easy.

And to get back to the questioned asked before about our campus security. They are not armed, they can take no police action against a person. I had an incident when I was working in a dorm and a resident was accused of hitting a security guard(not the normal Campus Security but a Renta-cop) and she didn't want to press charges. So that left me to voice my concern and we ended up call the housing director to get him temporarily kicked out of the dorms. I wasn't about to have him in the dorm after doing that, what would happen if I had to confront him by myself later that night?? It takes a person willing to stand up for others to make sure things like this( VA Tech Massacre) don't happen and the gunmen prob. fell threw several cracks that should have had him kicked out. I could go on with other instances where campus security and the university it self has failed to keep us safe in the dorms but I have a paper to write.

I just read one of Cho Seung-Hui's plays.

First: He was a twisted little fuck.

Second: He couldn't write for shit.

My baby sister is a VT freshman. Said the media was all over campus. I told her that if interviewed and asked if the school could have done anything better, to tell them yes. They should not have taken away their right to defend themselves and 30 people might still be alive.

Bingo.

Now I'm not anti-gun, I own 2 rifles and 2 pistols myself. But here are the stats and their sources:

UK
In the year ending June 2005, there were 10,979 firearm offences recorded in England and Wales.
From: http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/fact...gory=factsheets

US
Firearm related crime - 2005. Crimes included are murder, robbery, and aggravated assault - 368,178
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

Now we take into account the population difference.

UK Population: 60,609,153 (July 2006 Estimate)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/uk.html

US Population: 298,444,215 (July 2006 Estimate)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/us.html

So the US has 4.92 times the population of the UK
BUT it has 33.5 times more gun related crime. I'd say that says something for the UK gun laws. But alas it wouldn't even be possible here. So I'm keeping my guns - because everyone is sure as hell is too

Why aren't things like tazers more mainstream for personal protection?

Hell - they oughta issue one of those to every citizen... they'd give you a way to defend yourself without as much fear over what might happen if you're shown to have used it incorrectly.

I have a concealed handgun license and am very pro-gun... but I generally don't carry for fear of doing more harm than good.

Because you can get your ass sued to oblivion for tasering someone as opposed to just killing them outright.

Too bad we didn't have a US Society sandbox to play in and ban handguns in that environment to see how it would actually play out. We don't really know if a ban on guns would have any affect at all, and once we go down that slope it would be extremely difficult to climb back up.

I'm keeping mine no doubt about it.

I read two of his plays (10 pages each) and I totally concur with your two points.

Anyone even close to a normal range of sanity who read those plays could see that Cho was really disturbed. Talk about ticking time bomb.

The two pieces posted looked like they came from an abused/angry 9-yr old who thinks its cool to swear. Not like a SENIOR English Major at Virgina Tech!!

It will be interesting to see how this affects Campus Security across the country in the future. I mean 2 hours, I would like to know exactly what students were still doing walking around campus or in classes for that matter.

I read the play he wrote that is posted on The Smoking Gun.

You have to remember, he handed that in as part of his class work. I'd bet he got a good grade on that play.

The lawyers for the college are telling the faculty not to say a word about any of this or to give out his grades.

There is an awful lot of potential embarrassment on the part of the college faculty regarding the issues with this killer. I'm willing to bet he got an A or B for those plays he wrote.

College campuses are places of political correctness, moral relativism and the religion of diversity - regardless of how perverted or twisted his writing may have been.

The teacher was probably told to say she was concerned about his writings, but I would bet serious money he got good grades for those plays.

There was without a doubt bad decisions made and/or outright incompetence regarding the handling of the aftermath of the initial shooting.

They claim they "assumed" the shooter had left the campus. WTF would give them that idea? You don't assume in police work. There is procedure and protocol. There was failure here.

Either the college president or this police chief fucked up big time. I have a feeling regardless of who it was that made the decisions that morning, the police chief will be the fall guy.

It's too late and now is not the time for the authorities to be openly discussing the decisions made. It will come out with the official investigation ordered by the governor.

There is a lot that can be learned from this massacre as far as future security procedures. Let's hope the coverup doesn't hamper everything too much.

Exactly, once again the focus will be on gun control, and probably on Cho Seung-Hui and his "twisted plays".

Article

There is no way around the gun control and that will be dominant, and well the media is already eating up the whole "distrubed", "loner" aspect; however the primary concerns should be with the security measures in my opnion. Attending a university, well that becomes your home, and you should feel safe within the campus. Just appalling at this moment how all of this was handled.

It also says something for the effectiveness of Britain's ban. If you have almost 11000 crimes using an object that isn't even supposed to be in the country, perhaps your enforcement techniques need a little examination. Also, where are the stats on other weapons used? I'm willing to bet that more knife-related crimes per capita were commited in the UK than the US, or at least much less of a gap. A guy in Oxford threatened to stab me because I accidentally cut him off while walking in a crowd an suddenly coming upon a pole sticking out of the ground. Just trying to cut down on the spin.

Interesting. At my college, the seekies had full state police authority.

As far as guns allowed on a campus...I would *never* want that. Should that include high schools? I was 18 my senior year in high school. There were a few of us that were 18 (or turned 18 during the school year).

From the perspective of a current college student, I really would not want guns on campus. One reason being that there are multiple fights every single night that I go out. That is just the nature of a high concentration of testosterone and alcohol. Adding guns to that mix would be bad news.

I agree. for guns in school.

Strange timing but I got a NRA sign up in the mail yesterday. I have been meaning to join, but havent out of lazyness. Since the media is bound and determined to turn this event in to an anti gun rally point, I decided to sign up now.

Go to www.nra.org\jointhefight
Enter offer code Y7CVWEBM and get a free NRA duffel bag and a discount on your membership.

Next step is to buy the guns I want before they can change all the laws.

You know - I joined the NRA one year beacause I supported their cause... but I got so pissed at the constant stream of renewal "send us more money" letters that started showing up about a month after I joined and continued en masse for a couple years that I never renewed.

Have you notice how these events always bring out the 'I was there' syndrome?
"I was in that hall last week" or
"My brother's roomate's cousin's studies there" or
"Oh my god I was in that State last year" or
"phew, it was a close call, I was in Baltimore that day,I'm glad to be alive".

Maybe the paranoia created by the media it is contagious.

Something is happening on campus right now. Apparently swat has a building surrounded

Is it because Bush showed up?

Yeah the media is vermin for playing it up so the POTUS showed to make sure it was all above board.

I keep reading about this "Ismale Ax" phrase he had tatooed on his arm and that there are "theories" as to what it means but I can't find what these theoris are...Anyone??

Here is some interesting information for you all to chew on:

In 1997 Britain banned handguns, and between 1998 and 2003 gun crimes doubled.

According the British Home Office, between 1997 and 2001 homicides increased by 19 percent and violent crime increased by 26 percent; meanwhile, in the United States, those same crimes fell by 12 percent.

Between 2000 and 2001, robbery increased by 28 percent in Britain but only 4 percent in the United States. Domestic burglary increased by 7 percent in Britain, but only 3 percent in the United States.

In 1996 Australia enacted sweeping gun control laws. In the six years following, violent crime rates rose by 32 percent.

Canada isn't faring well under its stringent gun control laws. Today Canada's violent crime rate is more than double the rate in the United States.

Despite more than 20,000 gun-control laws nationwide, "firearms are present in about the same percentage of households today as in the 1960s." Furthermore, "these households must be much better armed, particularly with handguns, than they were a generation ago." Yet since 1976 the murder rate of those 25 years old and older has fallen from 7.5 per 100,000 to 5 per 100,000.

From the Jews for the Preservation of Firerams Ownership:

Until 1943-44, the German government published its laws and regulations in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt,' roughly the equivalent of the U.S. Federal Register. Carefully shelved by law librarians, the 1938 issues of this German government publication had gathered a lot of dust. In the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' issue for the week of March 21, 1938, was the official text of the Weapons Law (March 18, 1938). It gave Hitler's Nazi party a stranglehold on the Germans, many of whom did not support the Nazis. We found that the Nazis did not invent "gun control" in Germany. The Nazis inherited gun control and then perfected it: they invented handgun control.

The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced a Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. The 1928 law was enacted by a center-right, freely elected German government that wanted to curb "gang activity," violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearm owners and their firearms had to be registered. Sound familiar? "Gun control" did not save democracy in Germany. It helped to make sure that the toughest criminals, the Nazis, prevailed.

The Nazis inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they 'lawfully' took over in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them.

In 1938, five years after taking power, the Nazis enhanced the 1928 law. The Nazi Weapons Law introduced handgun control. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people.

The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. On November 10. 1938 -- one day after the Nazi party terror squads (the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues and Jewish businesses throughout Germany -- new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, even clubs or knives.

If some nut is hell bent on killing people then only a cop or soldier at every door is the answer.....then we become a two bit police state like North Korea. Granted a non citizen should not be permitted to own a weapon but he still would have found a way to carry out his ideas.

If any group of people know the ramifications of gun control talk to some people who lived in WWII Europe

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

NEXT ISSUE:

About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. Three fourths are under 5 years of age.

In Darfur, Sudan, at least 400,000 people have died through violence, hunger and disease since rebels took up arms against the government in February 2003.

Cardiovascular diseases claimed 871,500 lives in 2004 (36.3 percent of all deaths or 1 of every 2.8 deaths).

About 40,910 breast cancer deaths are expected in 2007.

Sounds like we have bigger problems to solve in this country and around the world??????.......

Tim

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570

It's a 4 year old study, but it backs what Xterra3202 just said.

Oh wait heres another story that we should all be so upset about!!!!

150 Killed

My math aint too good but isnt that 117 more dead than in VA?????

Heres another one....and Japan says that since they banned guns they are safe!!!!

Nagasaki Mayor Gunned Down

[END RANT] (For a little while anyway)

Tim

That's a different country. 33 is greater than 150 when it occurs on our own turf.

There's no point even talking about banning guns in the US like they have in some other countries. Before they even banned guns in the UK it was very difficult to obtain a permit to own one, you had to be a member of a gun club (Which there are very few of) with no legal record etc. Pass a background check - Wait a few weeks. Not like it was possible just to walk down the street and buy one, or walk to your local Supermarket and buy a shotgun. Guns are to prolific here for it to be feasible to ban them.

That's a different country. 33 is greater than 150 when it occurs on our own turf.

So by your fucked up logic the 400,000 dead in Sudan since 2003 are insignificant because they are Africans/Muslims/Not on our turf. You and people like you make me sick. You rationalize the death of some but totally discount the suffering of others.

Tim

Nice attitude. Grow up. Nice to see that you went from 150 in Iraq to a completely different story of 400,000 in Sudan to pass your agenda. But that's besides the point. All I said was our priority is where we live as it is for all those in other countries. I never said I didn't care about what happens in other countries. Nice try. What I'm saying is I care more about my country first and foremost. The US does plenty good for the rest of the world despite what the media trys to tell you.

x2, completely agree with you.

My heart goes out to all the victims and their families, to many lives were cut short.

I have no agenda it simply illustrates a point that americans are very turned off by the suffering of others but seem to suddenly care when it happens here. 150 vs 33....last time I checked they are all humans as are the 400k in Sudan. Is one life worth more than another simply because they happen to be an american??? Or does that person suddenly take a step down the humanity scale???? Im not pissed at you for your "own turf" comment and actually I apologize for the crude comment but the facts can not be ignored. There is a reason the US is seen as a negative influence in many parts of the world. Yes this is the greatest nation on earth and I am proud to be a soldier for that nation. However, with that status comes an awesome responsibility to stand up for those who cant not just the ones with the most oil.

Somalia 1993 thousands are dead and dying because warlords are controlling food shipments. 19 Americans are killed trying to capture key faction leaders. I can guarantee you that the comrades of those killed are more upset that they were removed from the theater than if they had been allowed to stay and finish their mission.

Americans perpetually have their heads burried in the sand. "As long as it doesnt happen to me" theory abounds in this nation. I suggest you re-read my quote from Martin Niemoller and then you might understand why I am so upset with all this sentiment.

Tim

I don't think that's true. America does more to provide humanitarian aid to the 3rd world than the rest of the world combined. By FAR.

America's main problem is it's own media. Gone are the days of unbiased news reporting without an agenda. The media will keep events like this out of the spotlight and focus on scandals like the Imus guy instead. Scandals give news companies ratings, and ratings earn top advertising dollars.

Not that I'm a disbeliever in capitalism, but it does foster irresponsible news reporting.

If I may....I think what Xterra3202 and Nismo are saying is true. I think emotions are running high. We all care for our country as does anyone about their respective nation. The higher duty is to help those who cant regardless of nationality. What happened in VA is horrific but we must do as Americans have always done...roll up the sleeves and use this as part of our collective good.

While I don't disagree with you, I believe the media and others will roll up the sleeves and use this to promote their specific anti-gun agendas.

Unfortunate but true. Only time will tell. Hopefully now we can all get along on the boards!!!!

I'm not saying their aren't people that feel that way, but it still doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of people tend to care more about what happens in their country first. Let's just say we're talking about two different things and call it a day.

Agree to disagree....sounds like a plan to me!!!!!

Take care have a good day and again Mea Culpa!!!

Tim

Well after killing the first 2 people he sent a movie to MSNBC it seems: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

and to think those pictures were taken after the fact that he did kill two people. what a F-ing dumb ass!

From boingboing:

Why the shootings mean that we must support my politics
The classic article "Why the Bombings Mean That We Must Support My Politics" was written for 9/11, but it deserves repeating now, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings:

Many people will use this terrible tragedy as an excuse to put through a political agenda other than my own. This tawdry abuse of human suffering for political gain sickens me to the core of my being. Those people who have different political views from me ought to be ashamed of themselves for thinking of cheap partisan point-scoring at a time like this. In any case, what this tragedy really shows us is that, so far from putting into practice political views other than my own, it is precisely my political agenda which ought to be advanced.

Not only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.

sick phuck...I hope he rots in hell.

As if it couln't get any worse

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/218179/wbc_to_protest_the_funerals_of_virginia.html

"WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants."

I am sickened by this. I feel so sorry for the victims and their families.

When will the media stop celebrating these idiots and stop showing pictures of them, etc. It only gives the sick phux what they want. Attention, notoriety and their 15 secs of fame. How 'bout show the victims???? Celebrate their lives and show the nation what their families lost. That bastard's face is everywhere.... I can only imagine how many sickos are inspired by this and want the same attention.

i have to agree with you in that the media is showing the wrong face and is giving the attention to the WRONG PERSON. i think that they should show the faces of the victims and their families.

I gotta question. I will first say I am not anti-gun but I am not an NRA guy either but...

I have heard a few on here say...we should all be carrying because we could have stopped the guy...and there were a couple references to times with a person sucessfully stopped a guy. I think NYMM sited a couple one being an off duty police officer...COPS SUCK...had to put that in there to fire some people up.

I was thinking I am a SWAT guy heading to a campus, office building what ever...I am HYPED beyond belief...The shooter is there and now we hear that civillians are returning fire but it isn't know who, what, when or where they are in the building or how many. I was thinking back to my MOUT training how freaking hard it is to keep track of your own guys to keep from firing them up.

So I guess my questions is would having several civillians in the fight make it harder SWAT to do their job? Will it turn into a bunch of wanna be cops running into a place where the fight is going on to "help".

I think I am a pretty sane/rational person and if I was carrying and heard shots I would head into the fight possibly fucking up the situation worse.

I agree 100%.
There's still hope out there:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/vatech_victims/article/0,28804,1612143_1611967,00.html

That's nice, but did they really have to put the GE Ecomagination CLose button right on all the pictures? It's all about the advertising I guess!

Has anyone noticed this huge piece of irony?

At Virginia Tech.... April is "Asian Pacific American Heritage Month."

http://www.aasu.org.vt.edu/

(Click for larger image...)



It also looks like they removed the web site for their Korean American Student Association (KASA).

http://www.kasa.org.vt.edu/

The situation is phucked up enough already without having to bring race into it...

:rolleyes:

Here's something I bet you DIDN'T hear in the news this week.

Last year, a bill was pushed that would have allowed folks to protect themselves on Virginia college campuses. It didn't make it out of committee.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Quoting the article:

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

This was no mere PR hack (he's quite well known in his field). He felt so strongly that he penned an op-ed in the same paper...

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/81277

The last sentence is probably most striking:

"Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same."

oh OH OH!!!! PLEEEEEASE someone photoshop one of the pics of the guy with the gun subtly into that picture somewhere!!!

The point is not to have 1 in 10 citizens be able to square off with the bad guy. The point is that when a bad guy starts pointing a weapon at you, you are able to defend yourself. If you are able to get away safely, then that is your only goal. This is taught in every concealed handgun training class.

A license to carry is not a license to protect and serve the public. However if you are in a situation where you can save someone's life, what is that a problem? And when the police arrive, they take over, and you would surrender your weapon when asked. That's how it should work.

But in life, there are no perfect scenarios. There is no law that can cover all possible situations. The main thing the general public/media/etc forget is that the bad guys do not play by the rules.

It is also a national right to keep and bear arms. This appears second to our right to free speech. This is a condition to the establishment of the government, not a government privilege.
People forget this.

Well the fundies have already blamed this one on science.

How teaching evolution has caused the massacre

Good times...good times

Keep in mind the primary job of the police is to fill out paperwork after a crime. You'll always hear thet they prevent crime, but lets be honest, how often do they show up before a crime?

Ask a police officer what his #1 priority is & I'll bet he'll say something along the lines of "go home to my family at the end of the day" or something similar. Protect & serve? Himself yes, but society, no.

It has been long established (see Warren v. D.C., et al) that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." Unless of course you're arrested or incarcerated, then they are fully responsible for you. I guess Chuck D was right, 911 is a joke.

In an incredible act of "feel-good" ignorance, "Policy 5616 - Campus and Workplace Violence Prevention Policy" prohibited all firearms for self-defense from the Virginia Tech campus.

As usual, the bad guy didn't follow the rules. This could've ended very differently. On January 16, 2002 armed students at the Appalachian Law School in Grundy, Virginia (about 2 hours from VT) intervened to stop a rampaging student:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

When Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms.

At the first sound of gunfire, fellow students Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personally-owned firearms. Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a bulletproof vest and a 9 mm pistol. Bridges pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevy Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.

Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun. Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.

The media is biased & went out of their way to hide the truth:

http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html

Unfortunately, the media did not point out that the "intervening" students were armed. A Lexis-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross were armed. A Westnews search exposed worse results. It revealed 112 stories, of which only two mentioned the armed students.


An example is CNN, the epitome of mainstream big media:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/

Students apparently tackled the gunman, said Ellen Qualls, press secretary for Virginia Gov. Mark Warner.

-and-

Police said as Odighizuwa exited the building three other students grabbed and subdued him.

Heaven forbid you tell people the truth & let them decide for themselves. How on Earth are you supposed to control independent thinkers?

So, apparently, this guy loved the band Collective Soul and their song "Shine".

Clicky Linky

Not to make light of the situation, but sweet merciful crap, that's enough to drive anyone to go on a rampage...and his roommates never saw it coming? "Shine"? Are you fricken kiddin me??

I caught 2 burglars last night. They got one car I caught them doing the second. Man I hate the fact I didn't prevent crime. Your post is so full of shit it isn't funny. Part of the reason we show up after the fact is we are so overworked with little staff. We take detail after detail then have to do reports the rest of the night. Some nights I have no time to be proactive it is just reactive. I am not complaining I love my job just saying it isn't our fault.

And if you think I am not required to provide police protection you are just plain wrong. There are many laws in Illinois which say I will do something such as domestic violence situations. Not if I want to I will or face criminal and civil liability. Not only that if I refused to show up to stuff or my chief told us we didn't have to one of two things would happen. Either he or I or both would be looking for new work. There is no way citizens would (nor should they) put up with that.

Yes I have a family and yes going home is my number 1 priority but not at the sacrifice to my job. If I have to get down and dirty I will. I can just train and do things as safe as I can to go home. But sometimes it goes to shit quick. I have a scar from a drunk hitting me over the head with a bottle. Sometimes it ain't pretty but it happens. Do I think that is part of it? I wish it wasn't but I knew what job I was getting into before I got hired.

Ugh.

So it begins. Leave it to CNN to start the anti gun rhetoric.

everybody turn in the guns editorial

It is going to happen many more times.

The Americans with Disabilities Act opened up college campuses and universities to tens of thousands of mentally ill nutcases. That law made mental illness a disability that cannot be discriminated against.

There are also numerous other laws protecting the privacy of the mentally ill. These laws keep the rest of the population from knowing the number and the extent of the mental illness of those in places such as college campuses. Laws such as the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act.

People with mental illness have been granted all kinds of so-called "rights" by the government. That means society in recent years has less legal ability to protect itself from and against those among us with mental illness.

In places like college campuses, the college administrators have no legal authority to keep those with mental illness out of the student body. They even have further legal mandates to protect the privacy of those with mental illness and to also provide them with mental health services.

Virginia Tech for example had 2000 students last year seek mental health services. That is an awful lot of students considering the total student population is 25,000.

I've seen figures as high as 25% of students at some liberal arts colleges seeking mental health services.

Believe it or not, the law says we have no right to know what type of mental illness these people have and what type of treatment these people are seeking.

Even though Cho is dead and after murdering 32 other students and wounding a number of others, Virginia Tech is still protecting his privacy. They will not release his records.

Quote:

Since it's been established that had the law been followed Cho would never have been allowed to purchase his weapons, where are the NRA types who were posting in this thread? I'm not provoking you, I'm genuinely interested in your perspective on a documented nut like Cho being able, through inconsistent application of the law, miscommunication, or whatever it was, to "legally" buy guns.

The NRA doesn't have any problem with anyone being kept from purchasing a firearm because of mental illness or mental health issues as far as I know.

Regarding Cho's purchases, there isn't a clear cut definitive resolution regarding his purchases.

The gun shop certainly didn't break the law.

Cho was also ordered to attend outpatient mental health treatment. The doctors also just asked him if he had suicidal tendencies and he said "No". They basically just asked him a bunch of questions. How many nutcases answer "yes" to being asked if they are a nut? That's basically what happened in Cho's case. What good did any of that do? Those doctors sent him right back out the door as fast as he came in.

No mental health flags came up on his background check. I'm sure the State of Virginia will be looking into the technicalities of the law. Something should have come up regarding the judge sending him to outpatient services.

It may seem odd, but the privacy advocates of the mental health industry may have objections to what information is forwarded to the government regarding mental health services.

We'll have to wait and see how all this plays out with the the advocates for those with mental illness and their privacy rights and what information shows up on background checks.

The privacy advocates always claim if something negative shows up on a background check... such as one for a firearms purchase, it can also show up on a background check for employment.

This is what I find interesting. Does the law specifically protect the records of the deceased?

If so, who leaked his "plays?"

I thought it was his former classmate, who posted them in his blog?

What was that guy's name . . .

Paul H & Bluesky,

I never intended to insult anyone or come across as a cop hater. The simple fact is that nobody can see the future & the very nature of police work means showing up after a crime has been committed. Even in your example you didn't show up until after the first car.

Police work is a dangerous yet vital part of society, but they don't prevent crime any more that firemen prevent fires. They show up & save lives & property, but not until trouble has already started.

The individual is the real first line of defense. The same folks that discourage self defense are the same folks that encourage smoke detectors & fire extinguishers.

As for 911 being a joke, that was harsh, but not exactly wrong. We have people calling 911 for stupid shit all the time. A year or so ago there was some local councilwoman or something who was notorious for calling 911 for all sorts of mundane stuff like directions & crap. The idea that calling 911 is going to somehow magically save you is dangerous & misleading. How many 911 calss are made before a crime has happened?

The bulk of my post seems to have been missed. My major point is that is a similar situation in the same area, it was armed citizens that prevented more deaths. I agree, the police can't be everywhere, thet are overworked & under-staffed.

The administration of VT are directly responisible for tanking legislation that would've allowed concealed carry on campus & were so proud of the fact that they had the PR guy write an op-ed piece for the paper. Now, a year later, that same administration is at least indirectly responisble for these dead students. By preventing students from protecting themselves, they have assumed that responsibilty.

your kidding me right

those "Facts" you posted are nothing more than lies printed by the bozo's who want the NRA shut down.

What they don't tell you is this.
for every country besides the USA a gun has been used to shoot and murder a person.

in the USA those gun numbers include but are not limited too

robberies ending in death involving a gun
car accidents where a firearm was present
home invasions ending in death where a gun was present
defensive firearm actions ending in a death
home accidents ending in a death where a firearm was present

and again I dont have all the numbers cause im at work but those numbers are a joke.

Blue Sky
I'm not attacking you

But England had a school shooting and outlawed all guns
crime jumped so high they had to increase their police force.

holland has a policy that every homeowner has a gun in their home as part of their homeowner policy.

crime dropped drastically

Not to draw this out any further, but don't you think in a small tightly packed classroom, two people shooting each other would have killed MORE people than were already killed?

I'm just throwing that out there...

Maybe.

But I gotta think a homicidal shit walking unmolested with all the time in the world to aim, fire, aim again, fire again, aim again, fire again . . . that's just not that much to make him think twice.

Targets lying on the floor, covering their heads and screaming don't cause a gunman as much of a problem as return fire.

I read that Cho fired up to 200 rounds. How many rounds does a Glock magazine hold? Do they have the capacity to hold 20 rounds?
That means he had enough time to wander through classrooms, reloading up to ten times.

Anyone know if that figure is accurate?

Ok, to play your game, that would have been one classroom full of students...instead of four. Not to mention how different the whole thing would have played out if someone got that prick in the dorm at 7:30am, before he could mail his package and shoot up Norris Hall.

It is an interesting point, and I think its something worth considering for a hostage situation. However, in the case of VT, where a killer was free to do his work over a period of three hours, it doesn't really apply.

Here's another question...and again, I'm just looking for thoughts...

ok, everyone that wants a concealed weapon on campus has one...what if one of those that has a concealed weapon goes nuts? Isn't it better that a student would have to go to all the trouble of having to figure out how to carry something like this out, as opposed to just carrying a gun to class, snapping one day, and tearing the place up, because he has immediate access to the gun on his hip?

But if everyone else is also carrying, then the one that goes scooters doesn't get very far when 15 other people are shooting back.

Mind you, I'd hate to be the one sitting behind him...

People can go "nuts" and drive a car through a crowd at a bus stop (didn't someone do that recently at UNC? Sounds familiar).

Remove all students' rights to own cars?

To go along with the above regarding cars the internet should be banned too. Go to google and just type in stuff like "ammonia nitrate", "bomb recipe", or "how to make an IED." Pretty damn easy to do. If that madman hadnt had his medical records opened and part of his background and been denied the weapons he did use he just would have found some other reason to do this. Its not PC at all but we should lock up freaks like him in mental wards (very different from a prison) so that help and 24/7 attention can be had.

Tim

think the real issue here is he fact that this nut job could buy 2 hand guns with so little effort. If a back ground check had shown that he had problems and had been reported for stalking etc. might have been a factor..

On the news they talked about that... Pretty much it comes down to he was a self admitted patient and therefore the fact that he was self admited, it would only show up on his medical records and not show up on any systems radar as being a danger. If someone is forcefully admitted, i think that goes in a system that is accessible by the background check. As far as I know, medical records have Hippa protecting them and not available to the general public?

It's not a bad gun control law that enabled him to purchase the handguns, it's bad privacy laws that don't give anyone any inclination to know this guy was a nutjob.

We don't need more laws. We do need consistent laws. Passing one law that degrades the effectiveness of another doesn't make sense.

It's like wiping before you poop.

Exactly. All the laws do is prevent the model citizens from protecting themselves. Criminals are going to get their guns one way or another. The rest of us are just sitting ducks until the police arrive. :rolleyes: It's funny to see everyone (mainly the media) care how he got them like that matters.

First let me say I don't pretend to know the solution to all this, but here's my problem with the "arm everybody" argument. Leave your home and go to any crowded area, or just drive down the freeway. Look around at the people you see. Hell, just think about some of the flame wars you've read on this very site. Do you relish the thought of those people walking around carrying concealed weapons?

People routinely have fistfights over parking spaces, the umpiring at their kid's Little League game, whether Roethlisberger scored in the Super Bowl, and fender benders. Right, let's put them in those same situations, but armed.

If there was a "reasonable person" screening test, that would be great, but there isn't. Many people shouldn't be licensed to drive cars. Many clearly aren't quailifed to be parents. Many can't properly fill out an employment application. But let's give them guns?

I've never purchased a weapon so if there's some enlightenment one of you gun enthusiasts can offer about the process that addresses this, please do.

Yeah, but will the guy carrying concealed have multiple magazines and a backpack full of ammo? I'd rather a guy with maybe two clips go off the deep end, than a guy with over 200 rounds on him etc.

This dude got to much press. The next Psycho now knows what to do so they get as much attention from the Media and will be trying to beat the number of kills this idiot had.

Just because students are allowed to carry concealed weapons, doesn't mean they all would. I'd bet that the vast majority wouldn't.

I think the point that the pro-CCW (concealed carry weapon) people (including myself)are making, is that all it would have taken would be one trained, proficient CCW carrying student to end it all.

And to add what Showtime said, it's not like the consequences would change either. Gun carriers know that if they heartlessly kill someone, their life is over too. Well, first their life is with Bubba and then it's over.

Anybody SHOULD know that, but it doesn't stop them. People do rash things in the heat of the moment.

Well, no one is saying that it will eliminate senseless murders altogether. I'm sure there will be some of that. As the evidence that people have already posted, it will lower it which is obviously a good thing and all we can hope for. Hell, for all we know is that it might make people be more nicer to others (in the examples you posted) knowing that there's a chance the other dude is packing (even if you are too).

BTW, "internet tough guy" is a whole different animal. There is no solution to that growing epidemic yet.

An example of someone not interested in being a victim.....

Picked the wrong clerk to stick-up.

Interesting reading.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html#

29,569 people in the US were killed in 2004 by firearms (Including Suicides). Which boils down to about 81 people per day. Don't hear much about those folks all over the TV for weeks on end.

So your hero is a guy who initiates a gunfight with a woman and her child in the line of fire?

If the woman and child weren't there, I'd be cheering along with you, but with them that could too easily have unnecessarily turned out as a tragedy. Best case there would be give the s***head the money and he leaves. Use your concealed weapon as a last resort. That's my opinion, let's hear some others please.

Very interesting. Same thing with car accidents. Tens of thousands die every year but people go bananas when 100 people die in the only commercial plane crash of the year. It's amusing; people who are obese, smoke like chimneys and never wear a seatbelt but they're not gettin' on no airplane, that ain't safe. :rolleyes:

I never said he was my hero, and I'm also a little taken back by the fact that the woman was there with her baby. However, not all of those situations end with the "s***head" taking the money and going about his merry way. In a lot of cases, they shoot regardless. Did you read the news article, where it said the robber already had his gun drawn? So do you give him the money, and hope he doesn't shoot you and everyone else in the room, or do you act?

Shoot the woman and her kid.

It'll distract the gunman, giving you time to drop him.

Hmmm...you didn't say he was your hero in so many words but that was the impression left by your post.

I didn't see the article but have read it now. You're right in that we don't know how it would have ended otherwise, and any of us who weren't there are bitching from the cheap seats, including me.

Let's say the robber had pulled off several previous jobs and had shot the victims. Then this guy's actions look very good, even with the woman and child there. If the clerk actually knew that information, say through media reports, any reasonable person would see his actions as justified even with the woman and child present.

I think he made a mistake to come out shooting with the woman and child there, but all's well that ends well, and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing myself in that situation.

There's just no clear-cut solution.

I thought it was a joke that time I posted a pic of the devil and said it was you.

Just so you are aware I am serious and not at all making a silly comment . . .

Actually No... It really wasn't interesting reading. It was just the NY Slimes pushing an agenda.

If the NY Slimes was really concerned about people needlessly dying, looking at guns and gun deaths would be lower on their list of priorities.

In this country alone between 90,000 and 190,000 people die needlessly every year because of medical mistakes. These are all types of mistakes. Everything from emergency room screw ups to being prescribed the wrong medication by a doctor not paying attention to their job.

Medical mistakes are one of the biggest killers in this country. We have thousands of people dying every week who should not die. Where is the outrage? What is anyone proposing we do about that dire situation? I don't see the media interested in making a big deal out of the situation either. Where is the NY Slimes regarding the issue?

Every year around 40,000 people die in motor vehicle accidents. Some years even more. What do you propose we do about that situation? Is anyone calling for a ban on motor vehicles?

Let's also not forget, motor vehicles are also sometimes used as instruments of mass murder. In the recent past we have had some Muslims come down with "sudden jihad syndrome" and decided to use their vehicles to kill infidels for Allah. Graham mentioned the incident at the University of North Carolina and last summer some jihadi went nuts with his vehicle in San Francisco.

Almost any nut could use their vehicle as an instrument of mass murder. It does happen and it is certainly not what can be considered a rare occurrence. There are a lot of bus stops and college courtyards in this country. Some nutcase is going to be doing it again.

I think many people also need to be reminded that the largest school mass murder in the US didn't even involve a gun. It happened in Bath, Michigan in 1927. A member of the local school board who was a complete nutcase planted explosives in a school building. Not only did he blow up the school and kill and maim scores of children, he loaded his vehicle with explosives and lots of metal shrapnel. After the school building explosion he arrived at the scene and detonated his explosive and shrapnel packed vehicle killing himself and at least one other person and wounding many more others.

It is almost impossible to protect society from every crazed, resourceful lunatic bent on murder.

The situation is even worse in recent years because as I previously mentioned, the most crazed and deranged people among us now have all kinds of rights afforded to them by our own government.

Government alone is responsible for more complete lunatics lurking freely in today's society and among our midst. Where is the NY Slimes and the media's outrage regarding that fact?

Another thing that needs far more attention....

Almost all of these shooting mass murders are committed by people on some type of psychotropic medication. We have become a society over-reliant on therapy and medication for all types of psychological problems.

Where is the outrage against the psychological industry?

We have a large percentage of children in this country already on psychotropic drugs like Ritalin. Many of them at the initial request of educators who have no business making these recommendations. Many previous mass murder shooters have been linked to the drug Ritalin that is all too often prescribed for too many children in our society today.

Going by the numbers, the future looks extremely bleak as far as school and workplace mass murderers are concerned. We are creating a steady supply of future psychotropic lunatics.

Where is the media outrage on this matter?

Maybe a lot of these media people themselves are hopped up on anti-depressants and other psychotropic drugs.

I hope you're kidding, 'cause it's either that or you're out of your mind. The legal implications for the clerk are enough not to mention the moral ones. Good God.

And well, well, well...seems the CCW students maybe didn't have as much to do with one of the incidents cited earlier in this thread as some claimed.

"Blacksburg, Va. —- Ted Besen bristles when politicians suggest that armed classmates could have stopped Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho.

Five years ago, while a student at the Appalachian School of Law in southwestern Virginia, he tackled and subdued a mentally unstable student named Peter Odighizuwa who had fatally shot the dean, a professor and another student.

In the days that followed, many applauded two other students who followed Besen with guns in hand.

"Their guns had no effect on Peter," Besen said Tuesday. "I already had Peter on the ground before they got out their guns."

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" Sunday that armed students have successfully stopped killers in the classroom. Gingrich spokesman Rick Tyler said the Republican was referring to the shootings at Appalachian.

Besen, a former Marine and police officer, said Gingrich is flat wrong: "The facts were so distorted."

After Odighizuwa finished shooting, he walked onto a lawn, put his gun down and started yelling at students as they fled, Besen said. It was then, Besen said, that he charged Odighizuwa, knocking him to the ground."

Full story

Link doesn't work for me unless I fill out crap, but it sounds like thankfully the dude put his gun down or I doubt Besen would have been able to do what he did.

Hmmmm . . . .

So can you post the Devil-GrayHam pic again? I couldn't find it.

Why are we still talking about this.

We're waiting for a usless post by you to respond to in the interm.

Yes, you're right. My point was that spin obviously goes both ways. This story is being trotted out by the gun enthusiasts to support CCW even though it clearly doesn't support their case.