HD-DVD vs. Blue-ray

Hey Everyone,

It's been a while since we last discussed this, so I thought I would ask those that are following this format war the million dollar question:

Who's winning??

I know it isn't settled yet, but with the release of the PS3 now solidly in the rear view mirror, there has to be some advancement in the battle lines one way or the other.

Well, other than a few days over the past month and a half, Blue-Ray sales have been kicking HD-DVD's arse in every category.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

BUT, it looks like both format sales are pretty dissappointing, overall. There's a chance that they'll both fail to ever become mainstream...

Also, here's a good source of information if you're really interested:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Disc_Sales

I'm doing my part, though. I've got 10 Blue-Ray movies, so far. Probably will pick up Rocky this weekend to make it 11.

Also important to note, is Sony has just released their cheapest Blue-Ray player. I know, it's still got a ways to go before it's as cheap as the $250 Toshiba HD-DVD, but a $500 stand-alone Blue-Ray player is a step in the right direction for the format. Plus, the PS3 will have a price cut this Fall as Sony's getting their blue-ray parts cheaper, now. I'd be surprised if there isn't a sub-$300 Blue-Ray player on the market this Christmas.

If Sony keeps by their policy - watch HD-DVD start to pull ahead.

Porn sells. Porn could well determine who wins. Porn will go to HD-DVD if Sony won't duplicate for them.

Wishful thinking by the HD-DVD camp.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/B...Def_Release/437

http://www.e-gear.com/story/story.bsp?var=story&sid=49178

But do you really need to see porno in 1080p? Do you really need to see every pimple or hair on that starlet's ass?

It will be interesting to see if Sony can indeed make this happen.

This was Toshiba's and the HD-DVD camp's argument all along - pricing is key (hello - Betamax/VHS???)

You can see the same thing with the PS3/Wii - the Wii is kicking the snot out of the PS3. Price matters to the mass market.

Walmart is talking a sub-$200 HD-DVD player. If they do that, and it's decent (doesn't have to be good, just decent), then it's over... As you point out, neither format is selling in anything close to mainstream numbers - so that means it's just crazy videophiles like you and me venturing in. If Wal-mart gets the prices down to mass market levels (under $200) Sony is screwed.

And those Blueray exclusives? That will change if there's a significant shift in sales volume. Same for the HD-DVD exclusives if it shifts to blue-ray. Follow the money...

Pricing was key during the Betamax vs VHS days because there was no alternative for home recording or on-demand movies. With DVR/Tivo/DVD-R/DVD/FIOS/Satelite/Home computer setups, consumer's are not rushing to what only adds higher clarity. And the leap from 480p to 1080p is not as profound as going from whatever was on HBO that night to Blockbuster DVD's. That's the real reason people aren't jumping onto either HD DVD or blu-ray bandwagon.

If I had to choose, blu-ray for it's capacity. But not for it's price cuz I'm not a trend setter or a bleeding edge technocrat. Give it another year or two, then the units should be pretty cheap.

This time last year, HD-DVD was in the lead. Now it's basically reversed.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Which one is utlimately better? The tidbits I've heard seem to indicate that blu ray is better in theory, but in practice hd-dvd is just as good. One issue for me is that I do have a 1080p TV. I didn't really go that route for the resolution as much as I did for the technology I wanted and the better black performance, video processing, etc. that goes along with those sets over their 720p brothers, but now that I've got it I'd like to take advantage of that and get full 1080p fed through HDMI. That basically means blu ray, right?

If I get a quality player (not a cheap ass loss leader) for under $300 by this fall, I'm doing it. I'd buy now but I've already sunk enough into the TV and component theater system that I'm not sure my wife would be down with me dropping another $500-800. The problem is I hate being in this limbo of not being able to buy any new DVDs because I'll be upgrading to a new technology soon.

Bah...just plunk down the $1300 or so for the LG BH-100 and be done with it.

Good idea.

Do you want to send me the cash directly or would you rather send it via paypal?

I don't buy into that whole "adult movies will determine the winner" model.

It was certainly the case back when the format war was VHS vs. Beta, but that's because it was allowed an entire industry to enter the home for the first time. THAT was the draw.

Nowadays, between $10 DVDs, On Demand, free stuff on the internet, pay stuff on the internet, good old fashioned VHS - the market is already saturated for ways to get your rocks off at home.

Adding one more to the pile isn't going to swing things one way or the other.

People that think adult movies will determine the winner here are missing the real reason why it was a selling point for VHS.

Yeah, adult movies won't determine a winner. I think the only people that pay for that stuff anymore are a pretty small group of "hardcore" fans (no pun intended), and that's not a big enough market to sway the format wars.

Once the winds start to blow one way or the other, the adult market will follow. It won't be the other way around.

You're right. It won't matter, because Porn is on BOTH formats.

Vivid Video (they put out somewhere around 40% of all porn home videos) have selected Blue-Ray as their format of choice.

All the talk of Blue Ray not having porn came from the HD-DVD camp, and from 1 studio exec. that made the claim (incidently, HIS studio backs HD-DVD)...

In other words, it's all a bunch of BS crap.

So, no, porn isn't going to "win" the format war for either format, because it'll be available on BOTH.

As to which format is "better"? Here's the reasons why I think Blue-Ray will win the format war, over time:

1) PS3 gives it a sales edge.

2) ALL hollywood studios are putting out Blue-Ray movies, except Warner Bros. That's the only studio that's HD-DVD exclusive. Everybody else is either Blue-Ray exclusive, or dual format.

3) storage capacity for computers. Blue-Ray holds over 60% more than HD-DVD. If you're doing big backups, more storage space almost always wins. Look at the progression; data tapes to zip drives to CDs to DVDs. I know, there are others, but as far as removeable media goes, the one that gets used the most is almost always the one that has the most capacity. (Exception: DAMN YOU LS-120...!!!)

4) The major hardware & computer manufacturers, except Toshiba, back Blue-Ray or combo drives. Only Toshiba is putting out HD-DVD only. In that regard, it's like Sony of the 1970s. They refused to get on the VHS train, and push their own format alone. Good luck...

5) HD-DVD's ONLY real advantage is price. It's cheaper to produce a HD-DVD than a Blue-Ray. But here's the kicker: go to your local store, and look at the prices of the two. HD-DVD may be cheaper, but it's not the consumer that saves the money. Blue-Ray's and HD-DVD's cost the same at the retail store. So where's the motivation for HD-DVD, after you buy the player? None.

HD DVD is cheaper NOW.

You can get DVD/HD DVD combo disks NOW - no extra charge for HD DVD, and even if you don't have an HD DVD player, the disk will work with your current DVD player (I've gotten several of those from Netflix already - they are out there).

HD DVD disks are also reported to be more durable - that's minor in my mind.

Here's the deal - if Walmart floods the market with an under $200 market HD DVD player and DVD/HD DVD hybrid disks (i.e. all their DVD's become DVD/HD DVD hybrids) the PS3 "advantage" aint gonna mean shit.

Again, this is speculation and moot since neither format is shipping in anywhere close to mainstream volume. At $250, I don't mind rolling the dice with HD DVD. Netflix has more movies than I'll be able to keep up with for some time in HD DVD.

Even if Toshiba folds up the HD DVD tent tomorrow, my HD DVD player will work just fine tomorrow and into the future. Heck, the original star wars laserdisks work just fine - if you can find them and a working player

If it hadn't been for the 360, I wouldn't have an HDTV or an HD DVD - damn HD trojan horse

HD players may be cheaper, but their disks aren't. The average price on amazon is $40.60 on HD-DVD and $27.20 on blu-ray.

Doc, my point is, it's CHEAPER to make a HD-DVD. But if you look at a retail store, the HD-DVD prices are the SAME as Blue-Ray. The consumer won't see that the HD-DVD disk is any cheaper. So there's no draw to that at the store. Either format costs between $25 and $30 for a movie, though there are some bargains out there already; I just picked up King Arthur on Blue-Ray for $17.99 at Wally World.

Not to mention, the Blue-Ray camp has been advertising on TV like mad the past few months; I've never seen an advert. for HD-DVD.

That's not a bargain, dude - that's just a really shitty movie.

You're paying too much...

You can get 25GB Blu-Rays for $16.99 and 15GB HD-DVDs for $11.99 at Meritline.

Not the best ever, but I can sit and watch Kiera all day long...

Which player is cheaper?

HD-DVD players are.

Which digital music player is cheapest? An ipod or other?

Cheapness of the player doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it... If the media costs the same, the "cheaper" of the players only has that going for it. That's not enough to make it mainstream.

People that spend thousands on a TV & home stereo system don't give a rats difference between $250 for a bottom-of-the-line HD-DVD player vs. $500 for a Blue-Ray player. Price isn't going to be the driving factor for which one wins. But it could be a driving factor for which one doesn't win, as in, if price is the only thing going for HD-DVD (it is), good luck to 'em.

Let me give you an example:

I can buy a Yugo, or I can buy a Nissan. Both will get me to my location. Yugo is cheaper.

Guess which company doesn't exist anymore...

If cost is the driving factor, both formats will fail, because DVD's are cheaper than either.

*Stewie*

Hi five! anyone? anyone?

not her best movie though.

but oh so very hot

Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD high-definition player for $199

Out of stock! But not a bad price for an entry level HD-DVD. If it was me, I'd look for somthing that supports 1080p or HDMI 1.3.

Only 720p/1080i output...

Not a huge deal. Most people w/ HDTV's don't have 1080p, anyways. Jackarse floor salesmen have been selling HD TV's for years, now, telling everyone there's no reason to get 1080p, 'cause nothing supports it... Oops...

I thought you were one of the people telling me not to worry about 1080p when I was looking? I ignored you, of course.

I was. With the exception that IF you were planning on going HD DVD or Blue Ray, then get the 1080p. If not, then it's a waste of your $$, as no TV is broadcasted in 1080p, and most likely won't be.

:p

It still depends on your use (movies/games or just HDTV) and your eyes. Some people just cannot see the difference between 1080i and 1080p. It's a personal preference as far as I'm concerned and I don't think that's changed.

I sort of agree as far as resolution itself goes. However, another factor to consider is that most of the 1080p sets are better for reasons other than resolution. Ie, better contrast ratios, video processing, etc. The TV I got (Sony SXRD) isn't even available in 720p/1080i.

Or you could be two stand alone players to less money, and better performance.

Completely false – they are both priced about the same.

Your Yugo/Nissan is not a valid comparison. Yugo failed because it was a bad car, and it was not in direct competition with Nissan. By all reports, the Toshibas are excellent players.

Click true (@ Amazon.com) Click here:

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm#10

Regardless of the link, you are still wrong. I know because I have purchased 30+ HD DVDs from Amazon, and have never paid close to $40 (except for boxed sets). Now please, don't take my word for it - go to Amazon HD-DVD category, and then sort by highest priced to lowest price. You will then notice that (again, excluding boxed sets) the highest MSRP is $39.99. The highest sales price is $27.95. This is about the same as Bluray.

Just noticed my rating lost two trucks - why all the hate?

Fine.

Replace "Yugo" with "Delorean", and the comparison is valid.

My point is, cost rarely has anything to do with whether a new format will replace an old. CD's cost less to make than a cassette tape, but cost more for the consumer. Not too many cassette tapes being sold anymore.

DVD's cost less than a VHS to make, but cost more to the consumer. Not too many VHS being sold anymore, either.

Quality very rarely determines whether either format will win, either. Beta was better quality than VHS. Laserdisk was better than VHS. JVC's High Definition VHS has equivalent quality to HD DVD and BlueRay (up to 1080i), and it's not going to win.

The only thing that matters is perception. I think HD DVD will fail, because by putting out their "dual format" disks, they only give an impression that it's an "upgraded" DVD version. Whereas Blue Ray, with its name, implies it's something completely different (even though, really, it's still just HD quality video).

The only benefit that HD DVD has over Blue Ray is cost of manufacturing the disk, and cheaper video players. The consumer doesn't see any difference in cost when buying a movie. And the difference in cost of players is a negligable difference, when you're looking at who will actually be buying EITHER format over the next couple years or so.

The average, cost conscious buyer isn't buying HD anything, right now. They're happy to watch their DVD player on their "HD TV", and don't realize they aren't watching HD anything. Look at the different consumer polls that come through every few months; the "average" person bought a HD TV, and has never bought any HD television channels, receivers, etc. And they ALL think they're watching HD, just 'cause their spiffy new TV has a sticker on the front of it that says HDTV.

My father in law did that - I never understood it. He got a cheapo brand 42" plasma from Costco and raved about the image quality of standard def Dish Network programing on the new TV. Of course, it looked like complete crap. To make matters worse, he lives in a rural area where he can't get any OTA HD channels. In his case he'd clearly be better off with a quality standard def tube TV, but he loves that plasma.

I agree with most of what you have said, but I do think cost is still a factor. Remember, DVD didn't take off until the price of the players came down. And I agree that $500+ is more than most are willing to spend to watch HD movies, but the price of HD players are now close to the same price of regular DVD players. The movies cost about 20-25% more, but they are available to rent for no additional cost.

And for the record, I own both a HD DVD and Bluray player, and am not biased to either. My only bias is that HD takes hold - regardless of format.

porsche996 - just realized we also had some fun discussions in the HD TV thread a few months back.

I can't believe ya'll are still arguing this. Porsche nailed it in the 2nd post of the whole thread:
Both are just a stepping stones to the next popular item (solid state?) and both will follow the laser disk route. Everyone's basically waiting to see who will "win" and by then we'll already be on the next "for sure" thing.

I believe that at least one of the HD formats will be a success.

ok, after reading it enough it finally annoyed me. It is Blu-ray , not blueray or blue ray.

with that said, Blu-ray will win out, especially with a price drop coming for the PS3.

I know I know...nazi...

Hey spelling nazi...

It's technically:

Blu-ray Disc®

So if you're gonna' get on a rage, could you at least rage accurately?

fine...its a fucking Blu-ray Disc.
:p

either way, there's no e.

You left out the ® symbol...

BluRot?

Yeah... I wouldn't put much stock in that.

I like this line from the article you posted:

Blockbuster favors blueray

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eric P.:
[QB] Blockbuster favors blueray

WOOHOO!!! I've been waiting a while for them to roll out the HD movies in my area. Looks like they're rolling them out nationwide, soon. Schweet!!!

My walmart seems to stock more blu-ray than HD-DVD too.

Also, Best Buy has a really tempting HDTV+PS3+1 Game and 1 movie deals. They are offering a 40+ sony lcd package for about 100 bucks more than my Father paid for the Sony LCD alone (about 2 months ago).

Hopefully this link works:
http://bestbuy.shoplocal.com/bestbuy/new_user_entry.aspx?adref=header

If you like movies and/or sports, don't get an LCD TV.

The most interesting part of that article was learning that people still go to Blockbuster.

Yeah - Netflix is way better, if nothing else due to the extremely robust ratings/recomendations database. I've seen lots of great movies that I never even would have heard of without Netflix.

BB also supported VHS over DVD - anyone remember how long it took them to start carrying DVDs?

Why?

Blockbuster vs netflix? That's worthy of it's own thread.

And LCD's aren't generally recommended for movies or sports because they don't always have fast refresh rates. (i.e. "ghosting"). But I believe newer LCD offerings don't have this problem...

But my next purchase will probably be DLP or LCoS/SXRD because I want something affordable in the 60-70" range.

I haven't seen one that can handle the speed yet, but I haven't looked for a couple of months. The issue in terms of movies is lousy black performance.

My parents picked up a sharp aqueous (SP?) that has an 8ms refresh rate - finally ghosting is a thing of the past with LCD.

That's true of any technology other than CRT, but people are still buying flat screens by the drove's

This is an interesting compilation of the differences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats

I've been watching the CWS in HD on my new LG 42" LCD, and have to say I've been very impressed. It has a 5ms response time, and so far has been great for watching sports. Between baseball and some football I had in HD on my DVR, I am very impressed at the way sports look on the TV. I don't have a 1080p source yet, but 720p, 1080i and even 480p all look great on it. SDTV looks pretty nasty, but it does better than my 52" RPTV, probably mostly because of the smaller size.

In the past I've put down LCD's but they have come a very long way. I wanted a large screen in my living room, and because it has a lot of natural light, projection and plasma just won't work well. This screen is very bright, color is excellent and it has acceptable black levels.

If I was looking for more of a HT setup, I'd probably still go with LCoS/SXRD but Plasma has come a long way too, they're a valid option today if space is a big consideration.

It's definitely time to re-evaluate these flat panels. A couple years ago they just weren't anywhere near projection sets in terms of quality, but now they're right there, and the price has dropped so dramatically they've become a much better option than they used to be.

Does anyone with a 360 know if the HD movies on the marketplace are 1080p? I'm really hoping that VoD squashes both HD-DVD and BD. I don't have a huge collection of DVD's and those that I do have I don't really go back to all that often. If XBL is already doing 1080p, I'm going to get myself a 360 and be done with it.

Problem with the HD VOD I have watched is the compression (both audio and video)- something you don't have to worry about with HD-DVD or BR. I personally would rather spend the money and own a movie, than spend $ on a VOD service.

And I have LCD, Plasma and LCoS - and I have been very happy with the LCD, and would recommend it to others. In my experience, the quality of the TV is more important than the tech type.

A few are, now.

There's degrees, however. High end consumer RPTV's (most 1080p DLP/LCoS) have a 10,000:1 contrast ratio. I've got a Sony LCoS set and the blacks are very good, and the shadow detail is exceptional. A properly tuned CRT may slightly exceed it in the former and may come close in the latter, but not by much on either count. In other respects I've never seen a RPCRT TV come close in overall PQ, and I've not just seen the uncalibrated stuff in the stores (most of which looks like crap). Of course, the the CRT's cost half as much so there's a cost-benefit analysis everybody needs to undertake. I came to the conclusion that I'd rather spend a little extra and get what I think it the superior set (no color uniformity issues whatsoever on my set, btw).

Plasmas are also good in contrast ratio and black performance. As far as I'm aware, most LCD flat panels still fall into the 2,000:1 - 3,000:1 contrast ratio range, and I've personally never seen one that can make a black look any better than a dark grey.

My comment about response time could have been off base with today's TV's.

A properly calibrated CRT will blow away any other technology out there. A home tuned CRT (throw a DVD in and run through the calibration screens) will easily match any other technology out there.

Don\'t just take my word for it...

Stores love to fuck with the settings on sets, and they really like to make CRT RPTV's look like crap - the profit margin on them is much less. I spent five minutes tweaking the picture quality of the set I eventually bought and people walking by were amazed at the picture - someone intentionally screwed up the settings and hosed the convergence from inside the service menu - luckily I knew how to go in there and reset everything to factory defaults. That's why it's critical to get a set from a store with a liberal return policy, and if you don't like the way it looks in your house, take it back!

Well, it was four times more expensive to get an LCOS set the same size as my CRT (56"). I hope your color stays uniform - Sony has had a hell of a time with their light engines - I saw enough green blob reports that I decided it wasn't worth it, that I would just hang out for a couple more years with CRT and let the price of everything else come down some more.

I'm sure quite a bit of the fuss was the usual negativity amplification that happens on the Internet, but at $800 vs. over $3400, it was a super easy decision to make

Now that I have a series three Tivo, I'm really enjoying my set even more - I may never leave the house

I'm aware of the thread at AVS, but I've also seen calibrated CRT sets with my own eyes and overall they don't compare favorably to my SXRD set, imo. I understand that CRT's have superior black performance, but my SXRD is very close to as good in that regard and is superior in other ways (resolution, viewing angle, brightness, inputs, etc.) I expect my set will continue to perform well, though I'll report here if it doesn't. It has an early '07 build date, and those sets are widely reputed to be fine in terms of their color uniformity performance. I've done the acid tests on mine to see if the flaw exists and it doesn't (often it isn't very apparent with normal viewing).

Netflix, Best Buy feeling “Blu”
Posted: 04:23 PM ET

Call it the final battle in the so-called “format wars.”

Two major outlets for high-definition movies, Netflix and Best Buy have both announced they’re going the way of Sony’s Blu-Ray… leaving Toshiba’s rival HD-DVD format to go the way of the dinosaur.

Netflix, the online movie rental service, cited the overwhelming number of studios publishing films in the Blu-Ray format as the reason for abandoning their current approach of stocking both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs. The California based Netflix says it will continue to rent HD-DVD discs to customers using what stock it has on hand, but going forward will only purchase new discs in the BD format.

Blu-Ray also enjoyed a boost from retailer Best Buy who also announced they will be going Blu, showcasing both Blu-Ray hardware and software in their retail and online stores beginning in March. Like Netflix, Best Buy will continue to offer HD-DVD products to those customers who had chosen to go with that format.

The difference here is that the retail giant, the largest electronics dealer in the U.S., is actively recommending the Blu-Ray over HD-DVD to customers.

In a statement, Mike Vitelli, Best Buy’s senior vice president, said “We are excited about helping customers find the right mix of products and services to make the next generation of high definition entertainment technology come alive for them,” adding, “We believe that Blu-ray is the right solution for consumers.”

Need more proof that it’s all but over for HD-DVD? Check the prices on HD-DVD products.

Last week, Microsoft announced it was slashing the price on it’s HD-DVD player add-on for the Xbox 360 by $50 to $129.99. Visitors to Amazon.com today will find the price of HD-DVD’s cut by 50%.

With more studios announcing their support of Blu, it would appear that HD-DVD’s future is beginning to fade to black.

Read more: UPDATE: Netflix Joins Blu-ray Camp In High-def Format War

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSL1627196120080216 since this was the original topic.

The war is over.