Self-righteous folks.......

...who believe whatever the media spoon-feeds them.

My perspective:

First off, I grew up in NJ, not far from the "House that Ruth built". Nothing that Maris, Aaron or bonds ever do will take away from what the Babe accomplished.

Nobody has ever proven that steroids make a player a better hitter. Historically, musclebound players have had more trouble hitting than those who were strong and agile. Despite the fact that steroids have been around for over 60 years and used by professional athletes for at least 30, Bonds is to blame, right?

Or, could it be that all of the local Klan members just don't like the idea of another black guy passing the white guy in the record books?

Barry Bonds already has 1000 more at-bats (more chances for HRs) than Ruth. As far as I'm concerned, that makes his career total a different record anyway. Ruth's .690 career slugging percentage is still unmatched and his .342 lifetime batting average is unheard in such a powerful hitter.

However, Bonds is an impressive and prodigious hitter, too. Despite all of the juiced-up athletes these days, they simply cannot match his ability to hit home runs. How do you hit a home run? You hit it with the sweet spot of the bat and a strong swing. Bonds has ALWAYS been strong, but in certain years, he was able to hit better. Why is that? Did the drugstore run out of steroids in the bad years? Hell no, he hit better/worse because he was getting more/less balls to hit the right part of the bat. But I guess I can't expect a bunch of armchair qurterbacks who have never plaed to understand that.....

The bottom line is that if rules were broken, penalties should be enforced. But to profess to say that wrongdoing nullifies one of the greatest hitters of all time is ludicrous.

I challenge any person on this board to go and take some steroids and see if it helps them make the Majors. It won't.

I don't hear anybody b!tchin about how Tiger has much better clubs than golfers did 30 years ago. I also don't hear people complaining about the numerous other advantages that modern athletes enjoy. Is it because the media forgot to tell you to?

As far as I'm concerned, athletic records must be evaluated with consideration to the time period of when they happened.

Babe Ruth revolutionized baseball. Nobody can take away the fact that he is one of few figures in the history of sports who transcends the game.



The Babe ain't cryin'. He never did. I invite all of the self-righteous complainers to stop cryin', too.

Jeff,

Steroids do make you a better hitter. Not a more skillful hitter but a better hitter none the same. I would recommend that you read the biography of Jose Canseco and his account of how steroid use has affected his life and his on field performance.

Steroids will not make you a better hitter in terms of bat on ball contact or hand eye coordination but it will give you a faster bat swing and more distance. Canseco outlined how after he started steroid use the routine fly outs he had a year earlier were now home runs. I think that says something.

Canseco also outlines how he started McGuire on the 'roids and how Bonds was a skinny kid and then within one off season came back a monster. You had stated that Bonds had a thousand more at bats then Ruth did, but you didn't take into account how steroid use allowed Bonds to reach that number.

Canseco specifically outlines the benefits of recovery when he was using steroids. In his opinion, he believes that steroids gave him the opportunity to heal faster from serious injury resulting in more playing time. He also believes that his steroid use allowed him to avoid the nagging injuries that can slow down a player throughout the course of a 160 game season.

Seriously, read the book.

Vince, I appreciate the suggestion, but Jose Canseco has been nothing but a "media whore" since the day he entered the spotlight. I have read some of his accounts and many of the things he talks about can simply be attributed to being a more experienced and conditioned hitter and player. How he feels about the effects does not constitute scientific fact.

It's ironic that the 30/30 king he was trying to vanquish when he made his 40/40 boast was none other than Bobby Bonds, Barry's father.

Canseco had his 15 minutes of fame. It's a shame he feels the need to cast aspersions in an attempt to gain another 2 minutes......

I was pissed when he got 40/40, I always hated that prick. My favorite player in the 80's would have got to 40/40 before Jose if it wasn't for all of his injuries........Eric Davis.

OMG, and actual Bonds apologist on XOC? What is the world coming to? I choose to think you're just stirring the pot and don't actually believe half of that crap. I see you pulled out the race card, what else is new? Steroids have already proven to make you a better hitter because you put more power into the ball than you normally would. That's a fact. Not only that, but you have the stats to prove the difference. Steroids do not help you put the bat on the ball. It's what happens after you make contact that's rigged. Warning track power are now homeruns, etc. What's a shame is Bonds was a badass before the juice and the juice really sent him into a new level. He's now even been able to play longer, heal faster, etc. because of it. I guess that doesn't matter though. And put the race card back in your pocket. Everyone's after Bonds because he's the best of the cheaters. No one goes after those who don't matter. That's why Lance Armstrong keeps getting so much crap. He's the best. Oh yeah, he's white so it must be the black media trying to bring him down. And finally, Ken Caminiti said that steroids got him his MVP. Something tells me you'll hear the same thing from Giambi before he's done and maybe a few others if they man up.

They all have no one else to blame but themselves. I'm talking about the players, owners... baseball in general.
Worst argument ever!

He is a great hitter, I can't argue with that but your stats don't improve at the age of 35 in any sport. No, he's never tested positive but anyone can tell he is/was taking steroids just by looking at him. It's really too bad to see this happen, to watch an athelete surpass one of the game's best players ever but have it overshadowed by controversy. I kinda feel bad for him but his attitude towards fans, teammates(seperate locker room? c'mon now) the game and himself(how can you put a substance in your body that has so many side affects that easily outweighs the upside? How can you use an illegal substance and walk all over the game you love, the history of that game, the legends of that game-including your own godfather??)that makes it hard for people to support him. It's not the color of his skin that makes him so easy to hate, it's the fact that he is disrespecting this country's favorite pasttime and the great players that made it such a loved sport. If there was a white guy who was suspected of cheating and being a total asshole in the process it would be the same story.

Right on with that one BigE! If Bonds wasn't a collosal prick and was a class act he might have been veiwed and treated different (i.e., Raffy) but he brings it on himself...

Oh no he didn't :rolleyes:

Canseco has about as much credibility as George Bush when it comes to being truthful...

There is a big reason why Barry hasn't tested positive for Steroids and won't test positive for Steroids.

Steroids is a Kindergarten term, and only a total idiot would fail a Steroid test today - especially one who has enough money to buy HGH.

There is no test for Human Growth Hormone (HGH) to detect if it has been injected into a person, and Barry was using HGH not Steroids.

Other than that -

Jeff, I have a little problem with you arguing for Bonds when you post -
You contradict yourself - stating Steroids do not make you a better hitter, but that you have a strong swing to hit home runs. Well, stronger muscles allow you to have a stronger swing and Steroid (and more appropriately HGH) use gives you stronger muscles resulting in a stronger swing.

as for the Bonds being better in certain years...and HGH not having an effect on a players ability to hit a Ball...

From 1986 through 1998
Bonds Batting Ave is .290 over 6621 At Bats with 411 Homeruns -averaging 1 HR every 16.11 ABs- with a slugging percentage of .556.
From 1999 through 2006 (when we know he became involved with his personal "trainer")
Bonds Batting ave is .324 over 2367 AB's with 304 HRs - averaging 1 HR every 8.67 AB's) with a SLG of .744

But a stat I find really telling is his rate of SB from first base (assuming all stolen bases are second base - the easiest of the bases to steal) and the number of Ab per stoeln bases. To figure the SB from 1b (which ignores fielders Choices and reaching by error) you take the number of walks plus the number of hits minus the number of extra base hits and divde that by the number of Stolen bases (similar to taking the number of Ab's and Dividing by the number of HR's)
From 86-98 Bonds stole a base once every 5.39 times he reached first base or once every 14.87 AB - that number goes to once every 17.93 if you take plate appearances (BB, SH +SF) into account
From 99-06 Bonds has stolen a base once every 22.48 times on base or once every 43.23 AB. That number jumps to once per 59.64 AB if you take plate appearances into account.

So how does a speedy all around hitter double the amount of homeruns he hits while reducing his Stolen base rate drastically as he ages?

Don't tell me there's something about the mechanics of running and the sweet spot of the cleats he was getting early in his carrer and then couldn't find at the end of his career.
Hell, Rickey Henderson's SB rate per PA went from once per 5.76 PA to once per 11.79 over that same time span in his career not even double...oh, and he hit half as many HR's, not Twice as many as later in his career.

Hell, to think of it, Historically, players tend to have reduced HR rates towards the ends of their careers...not increased rates. It's only been the last 20 years or so when that's happened - you know, that same time period when these athletes were using Steroids and HGH and other performance enhancing drugs.

BTW - Barry Passing Babe in Hr's doesn't mean much. If he was threating to pass Aaron, that would be a different matter. I doubt that will happen now.

Bonds is still just the second highest career Homerun Hitter behind Aaron.

Ruth still has the most Home runs hit in a career by a pitcher.

Hoppy,

Why is Canseco a liar? Is it because he speaks his mind and tells it like it is? I READ his book and not once did I get the impression that he was grand standing, lying or embellishing just to make a buck or get another player in trouble.

From what I read I get the impression that he came out of the steroid closet to get back at the owners who overlooked/encouraged him to take steroids when he was playing. He felt he was black balled from MLB at the end of his career and this was his way of getting back at the man. Unfortunately, he exposed several players in the process in his quest to incriminate the owners. Was this a stand up move on his part? No, I don't think so, but in his mind it was.

He makes very valid points about steroid usage and the benefits and side effects of the drug. He tells how he and McGuire would go to the the men's room and shoot each other up then joke about taking their Vitamin B-12 shots. All of this in front of the team management and staff. He also jokes about how he was referred to as the man that revolutionized steroid use in Major League Baseball.

I would suggest you read his biography before you formulate any opinions on the matter. Don't you think it's funny how people will form an opinion without doing their research on the subject? I do, that's why I chose to read the first hand account of Mr. Steroids himself before deciding if he was a credible source.

The major league season is a grind. 162 games day in and day out. Over the course of this grind, the body goes through peaks and valleys. During the peaks are when you are at your best, when you are hitting well, feeling good, muscles not sore, bat speed at its peak, legs feeling strong etc etc etc.

When you are in your valleys you might not be hitting so well. Your arms are sore, your legs feeling a bit heavy, you are feeling a bit tired, bat speed a little slower, not up to your peak so to speak.

You may feel strong in April and May, not so good in June, maybe a little better in July, not so much in August, better in September etc etc etc.

What steroids do is keep you at that peak for a substantially longer period of time. The grind of the season does not affect you LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO because you are juicing up on illegal roids to keep that from happening.

Steroids are not going to make a guy like you or I all of the sudden be able to hit major league pitching. Bonds is a great hitter already, no doubt about that. But the steroids keep him great day in and day out, almost immune to the rigors of a long season. He does this artificially. Its no different than using a corked bat.....You still have to make contact, but when you do....you get the picture.

Dont look at it from the standpoint steroids INCREASING his skill level. Look at it from the standpoint that the roids help him MAINTAIN his skill level for longer periods of time.

Using Tiger as a comparison is wrong because the equipment he uses is available to his competitors and are within the rules of the PGA. As far as it being better than clubs 30 years ago, it's "evolution" of the game, just like baseball gloves now being better than Ruth's era. Steroids,HGH, etc. is not evolution of the game it's cheating.

Finally, somebody that gets it.

Somewhat related:

My brother was a Division III All-American in college. At the urging of his coaches he bulked up and added another 15 pounds of muscle for his senior year (without steroids). Guess what? His production went down because he lost flexibility and bat speed because of the extra muscle. That's another thing the typical armchair moron doesn't understand. Extra muscle does not translate into more power.
Roids, on the other hand, allow you to recover faster from workouts, fatigue, and minor ailments. It's not the muscle, but the recovery ability that's paramount, just as MBFlyerfan points out. It keeps you at peak performance more consistently. This is especially important in baseball because of the "grind" these guys go through with a 162-game schedule (plus Spring Training and maybe the playoffs).

Finally? I said that in the first reply to this thread. Did you read it?

That statement is somewhat misleading.
Stronger, larger (and therefore "more muscle") in the proper places will improve performance, while added muscle mass in the wrong places will inhibit performance. And there is always too much mass gain which will inhibit performance.

Think of it this way

Look at pitchers for examples - pitchers who throw harder typically have larger leg muscles providing for more leverage and force behind their pitches. So a pitcher that adds 5 pounds of leg muscle will have better results than a pitcher who adds 5 pounds of arm muscle.

As for the too much mass gain being a problem, think of it this way - a catcher wear a chest protector is better protected than a catcher not wearing a chest protector - but if the chest protector is too thick or large, it inhibits the catchers ability to throw down to second base decreasing his ability to throw out baserunners.

Yes, Steroids and HGH are more useful as a battler of fatigue during the course of a season...
but let's compare here.


I'd say Barry looks bigger now than he did earlier in his career.

I stopped reading as soon as I saw "Jose Canseco."

Well, that just shows you that you should read the entire post before being to quick to write your own ideas down. This just proves my point that most people don't fully research the subject that they are so passionate about.

No hard feelings.

That's got to be the most bulshit thing I've heard on the subject. It's 2006 not 1965. No one cares if he's black, white or purple. He cheated.

Believe what the media spoon feeds them? So the Balco reports and Bonds handling of the issue is all contrived? You're kidding right? The media, especially ESPN is not chastizing him. As a matter of fact, they gave him a TV show and cut away from whatever programing is on just to show his at bats when he is on the doorstep of the next milestone. Are those the actions of the evil media conspiracy you are talking about?

Ruth can't cry. He's dead. What does where you live have anything to do with the records of a guy that quit playing 35 years before you were probably born.

You've seen the statistics and the facts. When other players were getting tired and old Bonds was getting bigger, stronger and more fearless at the plate. Are you saying that he did take steroids and it's o.k.? Why? Why is it acceptable to cheat? Even if he took drugs with the purpose to be a better hitter and it didn't work his intentions were to cheat.

If Sosa took drugs he too is a pile of shit along with Mr. Acne himself McGuire and Palmero and anyone else that thought that cheating was a way to make a good player better. Say what you want about Conseco, but as big of a stooge as he is, he wasn't lying. Who else that sat up in front of congress and discussed the issue could say the same thing?

Baseball chose to look the other way and Bonds took advantage. He went to Conte specifically becuase Balco devised a chemical that was not detectable so he could "risk" testing and still stand and lie about his non use of drugs. Does that make it ok because it wasn't a known drug that could be tested for? Does it make it right that he never got cought dirty?

I cannot understand how anyone that calls themselves a fan of baseball, a game so dependant on it's own history and statistics, can stand back and watch Bonds as the spectacle that he is and not feel like whatever was left of the purity of the game is being destroyed every time he steps into the batters box.

No offense, guy, but I don't consider reading your posts or Jose Canseco's book "research." I did read Canseco's book. That was 3.5 hours of my life that I'll never have back again. :rolleyes: But, hey, you're the man. Your knowledge astounds me. I bow and scrape before your throne.
Some of us actually played baseball ... beyond Tee ball ... so get off your high horse and

I did play baseball. Colorado All-State 1989 and recruted to a Division II school to play the sport. I know what I'm talking about and I know that most people don't research their opinions before spewing them.

Don't get mad because you put your foot in your mouth. Just read the entire thread before making statements that were already made a day before you even posted.

I'm not mad; don't flatter yourself. And if you consider supporting the viewpoint of another poster who expressed a point that I happen to agree with "sticking my foot in my mouth," get over yourself. This isn't your own personal forum. I went back and read your "grandaddy of all posts." MBFlyerfan, whom I was agreeing with, made the same point better than you did.

Can we end this bitch fight and get back on topic?

I would take a Tarot Card reading over believing something that came out of Canseco's mouth. He has ZERO credibility.

Make no mistake about it. I'm no Bonds apologist. Why would I apologize about someone who has never tested positive for steroids?

The bottom line is that the game has changed numerous time.

Should we:

Invalidate every record prior to 1920 because of the livelier ball that was used after that year?

Invalidate every record prior to 1947 because of racial segregation?

Invalidate Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA record because of a 5 inch taller pitching mound?

.....

Let's hear some evidence that does not rely on the fabrications of a has-been media whore.

Does it matter that he didn't test positive? He already has said he used the "cream" and the "clear" in sworn testimony. Just because he claimed he didn't know what it was when he took it (bullshit :rolleyes: )doesn't allow him to escape the fact that he cheated.

He's guilty. Period.

Your argument about an average joe taking steroids and trying to make it to the MLB is ludicrous. The vast majority of people don't have the hand-eye coordination to even come close to making contact. Bottom line is, for MLB'ers, that doesn't matter. These guys are already the best in the world at hitting a baseball. Designer steroids and HGH enhance performance in other aspects of hitting. Do you really think he would have hit 73, or 700+ without help?

He became a power hitter in his mid to late 30's. That is unheard of in the entire echelon of professional sport.

Once again, he's guilty. Period.

Those were official rules/policies of Major League Baseball, not the actions of several players that tried to take an advantage of a loophole in the drug testing agreed upon in the CBA. Big difference.

Well, sounds like you're a totally different person writing, so I'm going to go with you really didn't believe what you first posted. Either that or we actually changed your mind since you never questioned anything. And I know you're also smarter than this:
There's a big difference between that and doing something illegal. Those are the rules of the game and have nothing "illegal" about them. Yes, it sucks that blacks didn't get to compete. Yes, it sucks about all the other things, but that's how the games change with times and improve. The 3 point line in basketball, 2 point conversions in football, you mentioned the better technology in golf, etc. There are countless changes in every sport that are different from the years past. The NFL, NHL, NBA, PGA, MLB... they all do it. They have to and therefore it's all relative.

Make no mistake about it, steroids are taken by all players, pitchers and hitters. Right now, all we know for sure is that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, Rafael Palmeiro and countless number of no names are guilty of the juice. We have our suspicions... Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Albert Pujols, Roger Clemens, etc., but that's all they are... suspicions with no proof.

The apple to oranges comparisons are very difficult to achieve, so good luck with that.

BTW, you're sticking up for Bonds and trying to justify that what he has done is ok. That makes you a "Bonds apologist".

That's not true. I said in my very first post that those who break the rules should be dealt with in accordance with prescribed penalties.

However, if you guys would step off your high horses long enough to catch a game, you would agree that Bonds can hit. That's the bottom line.

The fact that you said it was unheard of for a player to gain power during their thirties shows you are not a baseball fan. Most of the best hitting seasons in baseball history were by players in their thirties. Babe ruth hit 256 home runs between his 31st and his 36th birthdays.

....

Read my first post if you want to reply. Bonds has had over 1000 more tries to hit 715. Hitting 715 does nothing to diminish the Babe's unmatched career.

Baseball fans appreciate good players. Baseball players know what it takes to hit home runs. Strength is a very small part of it. The swing is where it's at.

Bonds will always be a controversial figure remembered for his prodigious hitting. Canseco will barely be a footnote in baseball's most obscure memories.....

From 1931-1934 at the age of 36-39 Ruth hit 46, 41, 34, and 22 for a total of 143 homeruns. Bonds during the same age hit 73, 46, 45, 45 for a total of 209.

Ruth from the age of 24(when he became an outfielder) to 30 hit 289 homeruns. During that same age span Bonds hit 227. From the age of 31 to 35 you said Ruth hit 256, Bonds hit 202.

If you look at those stats Ruth has hit more homeruns than Bonds from age 24 to 35. The only time Bonds has hit more homeruns than Ruth was from age 36-39. Even if you add the homeruns Bonds hit from his rookie year at age 21 to 30 he would only have 292. Ruth although he was a pitcher from age 21-23 still hit 16 homeruns and that would make his total 305. You already mentioned that Ruth had less at bats.

Hank Aaron from age 36-39 had 159 and Willie Mays had 86.

Since baseball is a game of stats and you brought up some I thought I would give all of it not just a part of it.

Check this link for tha stats.

You ever hear the term "Warning Track Power" before?
Stronger muscles = faster bat speed = more force = longer hit balls.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong

Talk about someone talking about something they have no clue about here...
Babe ruth turned 31 on Feb 6th, 1931. He turned 36 in 1936 (also in Feb).
He hits 255 Hr's in between that time peroid - 257 if you count his 2 Hr's in the '32 postseason, which do not get counted towards his 714 Career Homeruns. If you include his playing time as a 36 year old, he hits 298 Hr's (300 including postseason) - but that's just splitting hairs - 256 is close, if not totally accurate...


But the bigger issue here is that you say most of the best hitting seasons in baseball history were by players in their 30's. You site Babe ruth's home run totals in support of that statement.
Well, let's look a little more closely see if that statement still holds up, shall we?

That statement sure sounds and looks good when we look at Barry Bonds numbers, doesn't it. Now keep in mind Barry Bonds was 21 when he debuted in 86 (he turned 22 during the middle of the season), and he turned 30 in 1994

Barry Bond's Stats from 86-94 (21-30 yrs old) -
1281 Games, 4514 AB's, 1287 Hits, .285 BA, 259 HR, .537 Slg, 17.43 Ab per Hr
Barry Bond's stats from 95-04 (31-40 yrs old) -
1435 Games, 4584 AB's, 1443 Hits, .315 BA, 444 HR, .684 Slg, 10.30 Ab per Hr

Wow, you do see an improvement in Barry in his 30's over his 20's - his batting ave raises .030, his sluggin raises .147, and he hits homeruns 7 at bats more rapidly than he did in his 20's.
And to top it all off....
Bonds shows a significant difference in his hitting ability - and it's an increase. Bonds hits 73 homeruns when he is 36 years old - but Bonds only hits 46 Hr's when he's 29 and never over 35 homeruns before he turns 30- and yet after turning 30, he fails to hit under 35 Hr's just twice (one of those years because of injury).

Buit what about historically? Since you Mention Babe Ruth, let's look at his stats - they must obviously show he had better numbers in his 30's than in his 20's and prove that most of the best hitting seasons in baseball history were by players in their 30's.

Babe was 19 when he first Played in 1914 - and he turned 30 in 1925

Babe Ruth's Stats from 14-25 -
1198 Games, 3923 AB's, 1355 Hits, .345 BA, 309 HR, .697 Slg, 12.70 Ab per Hr

But lest we forget, the Red Sox used ruth Solely as a pitcher until 1918 - so he played just once every five days. If we take into consideration Ruth wasn't an "everyday" player until 1918 (23 years old) - but that he still gets days off after starting to rest his arm
Babe Ruth's Stats from 18-25 (23 - 30 Yrs old) -
1032 Games, 3562 AB's, 1247 Hits, .350 BA, 300 HR, .719 Slg, 11.87 AB per Hr
Ruth's stats from 26-35 (31 - 40) -
1305 Games, 4475 AB's, 1518 Hits, .339 BA, 405 HR, .684 Slg, 11.04 Ab per Hr

Wow, statistically - ruth's stats for his 30's (as an everyday player) are not significantly different from his stats in his 20's... a drop in BA of .011; a drop in SLG of .035; and a homerun about one ab less than in his 20's...about one AB because it's exactly a difference of 0.83 AB's between Homeruns...

Yes, Babe did hit 60 Homeruns when he was 32 - but he did hit 54 when he was 25 and 59 when he was 26. 59 is pretty close to 60. And Ruth only fails to hit 35 or more homeruns in his 20's twice - once due to injuries in '25 and in 1919 and 1918 when he was given days off after pitching to rest his arm. And each year after turning 32 Ruth's homerun totals show a decline.

Let's also point out that Ruth hit 6 hr's when he was 40 years old - more than any of his first 4 years (aged 19-23) but then, he also didn't play everyday at those ages because he was a pitcher. From age 24 to age 39 he hits more than 6 HR's every year
Conversely, Bonds hits 45 HR's when he turned 40-more HR's than in all but one year during his 20's.

So, no, JeffW - historically players do not hit signifigantly better in their 30's than in their 20's.

You show me someone who didn't think Bonds could hit before the juice (I haven't seen anyone here), I'll show you an idiot. You show me someone who doesn't think Bonds juiced, I'll show you an idiot. You show me someone that doesn't think steroids enhances a players performance, I'll show you an idiot... oh wait.

I'm not sure if you were talking to me Jeff, but I said, mid to upper 30's, not just his 30's. There is a difference.

Statsitically speaking, athletes tend to show signs of wearing down around the age of 32-34 years old. It's more subtle for some than others, but it's a given fact that players wear down before 35. Barry Bonds power numbers increased.

He set the single season record after 35. I'm willing to bet that he's hit more homeruns between 35-40 then anyone else in league history, and probably by quite a significant amount. I don't have time to check into it, but it's a safe bet.