Separation of Church and State...Hello?

Over 130 brave U.S. troops have died so far removing Saddam and attempting to establish a secular government in Iraq, yet we have to put up with this bullshit at home:

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=030428&cat=news&st=newscourtcommandmen tsdc

These people in Kentucky should be ashamed of themselves.

:rolleyes:

The law only means something if it supports your beliefs?

The ACLU should be ashamed of itself.

NYMadman should be ashamed of himself

You should be ashamed of yourself. Shouldn't you be looking for a job?

The whole Church/State argument really makes me tired. Samuel Thompson wrote something that really summed up the way I personally feel about it. What it boils down to is, if I (as a Christian) can go to work everyday and tolerate a large group of Muslims who wash their feet in the break-room so they can lay out their prayer mats and pray to the Mecca of the East or whatever, two or three times per day... then the athiests and other people out there can tolerate a 30 second prayer before a local high school football game.

Here's the whole text, for those who care enough to read it:

Samuel Thompson wrote:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt.
According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.

So what would you expect --somebody chanting Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call.
One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules!

It's time we tell them, you don;t have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right..but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away ... we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN! After all ... the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...

May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up..... In God WE Trust

The thing about this is the ACLU will defend Muslims right to get their drivers license picture taken with veils covering their faces... all in the name of religious expression.

There is an all out war against Judeo/Christianity in this country by the left. Everything else seems to be fine with them.

The ACLU is anti-American and Clinton put one of them on the Supreme Court.

I agree the ACLU is anti-ameriCan. But it still does not change the fact that this display should NOT be on a government/state facility/grounds. You have to go all the way with the "seperation" issue or the lines become too blurred. But common sense should rule out in the end one would hope. Just my opinion.

I understand your argument here, but people have to start looking at the bigger picture here. Religion should TOTALLY be removed from public schools/universities, PERIOD. No praying to Mecca, no Catholic prayers in the morning, NOTHING, it's a SCHOOL not a church. One goes to school/university to better themselves in business/computers/math/medicine (you get the picture), so if one wants to better themselves in a religious sense, go to a RELIGIOUS SCHOOL.

I see that you are unclear on the concept,MBflyerfan. It is a fact that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, and many of our laws are based on biblical tenents. The only thing that seperation of church and state really means is that our government will not require us to participate in a state sponsored religion, just as freedom of speech has nothing to do with not having to face the consequences of your speech.

No, I am very clear on what the constitution says about seperation of church and state. Any time you put anything like The Ten Commandments on state property, it can be construed as state sanctioning for said religion. I always viewed the law as not for sanctioning participation, but for not preferring one type of religion over another so that the non-preferred religion becomes discriminated against. I am not saying its right or wrong. Common sense would tell me that it is just 10 basic rules on morality. Nothing more, nothing less. But as I said previous, the line is blurred, and since it COULD be construed as such, it should be taken down. Even if it only offends a minority of people, our laws were constructed to protect the minority from the majority. As I said, just an opinion.

Where exactly is this law written that states "separation from church and state?"

Check out these sites to gain a better grasp on the whole debate.

Fallacy

Seperation

Myth

What Law?

Jeremiah

Christian Answers

No its reads more like, shall make no law establishing a state religion or make a law prohibiting exercising of such. I am paraphrasing from memory. I didnt read your links because I couldnt get to them. Its all subject to interpretation.

Do I think having a stone tablet with the commandments on it is offensive to me as an atheist? No. Truth is truth regardless of where you believe it came from. Do I think the ACLU is a misguided bunch of Dukakis loving, treehugging, moon maidens, you bet. Both sides can say, "whats the big deal?", from both sides of the argument, and they will both mean it in completely opposite ways. But I still think the line is blurred, and I would err on the side of caution.

Yes, I believe the whole first admendment is up for interpretation. But no where, and I mean no where, is there a Federal law stating "separation of church and state."

I believe they wanted the freedom to practice any form of Christianity they wanted. I believe they did not want any religious leaders of any faith having any role in politics. (Watch the movie "The Three Musketeers" to see why)

Having the Ten Commandments on the wall is no big deal. Yes, our government did legislate many of our laws based on the Bible. Be honest here, as an Atheist, do you really take offense to seeing them there? Do you really take offense that moment of silent prayer is allowed in school? They have the right to pray. You have the right not to. Stand or sit there and think of ways to pass your pro-weed bills.

Let's look at this closer:

"shall make no law establishing a state religion or make a law prohibiting exercising of such"

If one were to see any religious statue/cross in front of a PUBLIC building (paid for by the public tax payers), wouldn't one feel that the goverment of that state then prefers it?

Shall make no law establishing a state religion

:rolleyes:

There is a big difference between Muslims taking time to do their own thing, and prayer before a 'state-sponsored' football game. The first is an individual's right, and does not affect anyone else. The second is seen as a 'state-sponsered' religious activity.

The way I see it, the state should not sponsor or set up any religious activities in schools or elsewhere. I also think that each student has the right to read their Bible or whatever, and pray in their spare time at school. The distinction being an individual's choice vs. a sponsered event by a governing body.

I understand your point about the perception of state imposed prayer, etc. Make no mistake however, Muslims taking time to do their own thing affects us BIG TIME.

Examples:

1. You'd like to wash up before lunch, but you can't because there's a line of people washing their fucking FEET in the sink so they can pray.

2. You can't hold a meeting without an interuptive knock on the door every 5 minutes and a muslim face peeking around the corner to see if the room's empty for his prayers.

3. You can't find a place to HAVE a meeting because all of the conference rooms have praying muslims in them.

4. The bathrooms are so foul that you can't use them. Apparantly "purifying the soul for prayer" includes "purging your unclean thoughts through masturbation." Its not unusual at all to walk into the bathroom to discover a muslim man cranking one off in the stall.

I understand its a different culture. I understand that religion is a way of life for them. I also understand that our HR department doesn't want to touch any of it with a 10 foot pole. But don't sit on your high horse and fucking tell me that "doing their own thing" doesn't affect anyone else.

The fact that I put up with that bullshit every day of my working life "as a part of the job" is one thing, but the fact that kids today aren't being prepared for it pisses me off to no end. On one end, kids are supposed to learn tolerance and acceptance of people and cultures... On the other hand, we're "protecting them" by prosecuting the few teachers who want to say a 30 second prayer before class?

Its OK to have "safe sex zones" in school where kids can supposedly explore questions about their sexuality in a "hate free" environment, but you don't want to allow students to hold private prayer meetings in a classroom after school?" I'm sorry, that's just fucked up, and it pisses me off.

Its OK to discuss orgasms, masturbatory techniques, and the safety of certain birth control methods, but NOT to discuss abstinence? We're supposed to enforce tolerance but there's no room in the science department for "Creationism" even if it were presented as a "theory?"

It all smacks of two-faced bullshit, and its one of the primary reasons my wife and I don't want to have any kids. By the time I have a kid and he/she's 15, they'll be teaching "sex class" with the viewing of bi-sexual porno films.

Sorry dude, I will get off my high horse now. :rolleyes:

My point was the distinction between the two. Sounds like there needs to be some guidelines set up at your company. Going back to the school scenario, I would not think it right for a kid to start reading his Bible in class when he had class work to do. It should be reserved for free time, such as lunch or something similar. That seems to be a bit more of a problem with the Muslim though. They are supposed to pray at certain times and stuff. I am glad I am not in your HR department.

Pnut, I hope for your sake you're not posting that from your place of work.

Personally I think this separation of church and state is meaningless. The Church of England is the state sponsored religion in the UK, yet it has far less influence over politics or daily life than religion does here, despite the alleged separation.

As someone else said in another thread...

"No need to say anything...my sig says it all."

I think building permanent monument to the Ten Commandments on Government property is definitely a no-no. If they allowed that, they would have to allow any faith to erect any kind of monument it wanted in honor of any religion or lack thereof.

I likewise think that having a manger or religious decorations on Government land during the holidays is wrong, if it is put up by the city, state or government. HOWEVER... I think a little common sense would be nice. A local park in our county is set aside during the holidays so that groups can display Christmas and Hannukka decorations. Some of the displays get quite religious. A few people, (not even from our community) have threatened to sue because of the percieved violation of the church & State separation. Get real... :rolleyes: There's nothing stopping them from putting up a really drab display calling for an end to religion.

The radicals on both sides need a real dose of

What?????!!!!!!??????
Are you serious?

Yeah, that is pretty gross.

Very serious. Its disgusting.

What? Who? Why?
Is that an acceptable practice? Can you ask one of them why they do that? I am simply amazed. What, in their culture, says that is socially acceptable?
That's just fuckin' weird. I can understand the whole prayer thing, but......!!!!!!!! WTF??????

You just quoted the reason they do it.

Don't stalls have doors? How do you know he's not playing the spoons?

Ok, You are definately confused about something with the "Sex ed" reference. In my sex Ed Class, they definately stressed that abstinence was the only way to give a 100% guarantee that you would not cause a pregnency or spread any STD's. Abstinence is a form of birth control afterall. Schools can not teach an Abstinence only Sex Ed class - that does not mean they can not teach abstinence in a Sex Ed class.

The "Thoery of Creationism" is a term that doesn't exist, since Creatinism isn't a theory. Creationism (like evolution which it is so often compared to) would be a Concept, that is supported by various Theories (Such as Darwin's theory). The reason Creationism isn't taught, is because there isn't a Theory that supports Creationism. The reason there aren't any Thoeries is that the Hypotheses which would be the foundation of the Theories cannot be repeated or tested, so they can not be a hypothesis and are discarded.

Not Only disgusting, but very unhygenic. That could cause some spreading of some seriously nasty diseases.

I beleive that what they aredoing would follow under a public sex act, which in most (if not all) states is illegal.

You might want to look into that.

Sorry Sean, I was talking to Xterrapin. The quote says why the jerk off in the bathroom.

If you read my original post, you would already see the answer to that question.

Yes, I see and saw where you answered it. I was asking the Atheists in this group in general. Sorry for the miscomms.

That can't be true?!? I read the Quaran and I don't recall reading that part???? Seriously, you think that's why? Gross.

Interesting signature you got there Off-Your-Crib. Did you know Oscar Wilde led a double life that involved little boys?

http://www.robotwisdom.com/jorn/wilde.html

Precisely why a lot of us don't use the restrooms. We take our "smoke breaks " (I don't smoke, but if they get a break...) and walk down to the warehouse.

I don't want to "look into" any part of this. I'm still relatively "new" here (5 months) and I don't want the "crusader" label. There are certainly members of HR who are "looking into" a politically correct way to stop it without having to draft a "no masturbation in the bathroom" policy.

You shouldn't have to tell people that washing their feet in the same sink you use to rinse out your coffee mug is "bad."

I can't seem to find further evidence to support your claim. But if it is true, then my signature will change. For the time being, I shall change it to something more appropiate. Thanks for the potential heads up.

If that is not the truth, I don't know what is.

I do not sense and I do not see any respect from the same group you mentioned about others beliefs.

Meanwhile, this group is trying to use our country's judicial system to force American citizens of all religious faiths, to respect their views, wishes and commands while subsequent court decisions in their favor, infringe on everyone else’s beliefs. These so called rights that come from these decisions destroy our very human rights and the proper values this free country was founded on.

NY Madman, I don't agree with everything you write but in most cases I do and I agree with you here.

PNUTMNM, I enjoy your comments on this issue as well.

Chalk one up in the win column for the Constitution.
Virginia Military Institute supper-time prayers are unconstitutional. Read about it here.

I meant "look into" the laws...
If you're into looking at "other things", well...

I'd just look at the local laws, and if you find something that applies, then just leave a copy in an inbox of someone in the HR department. Simple, effective, and no backlash against you.