Executed American!!!!

Just checked the headlines and a 26 year old American Contractor was beheaded over the weekend. The animals responsible said it was for the prisoner abuse allegations. What a bunch of low life pieces of shit that don't deserve to live. More reason to bomb the hell out of them and call it a day. Over 1500 Americans were put on trial for "Prisoner Crimes" during WWII and about 36 of them were executed by the Military. The military can and will police itself as long as the Damned media would stay out of it. This is a war not a media oppurtunity. We need to hunt down and slaughter these terrorists and make examples of them so that their coward ass cave dwelling camel fucking friends might wake up and realize that they pissed off the wrong fucking people. Sorry for the ranting just needed to get this off my chest. And yes I am in the Military and DAMNED PROUD TOO!!!!!!!!

Fuckin' bastards.......

As stated in a previous post by me:"Fuck em, Fuck em all, Fuck every last man woman and child, turn the place into a parking lot and have a fucking party" or something there abouts....I think a quote from Aliens is appropriate here:

Hudson: Let's just bug out and call it even, OK?
Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. That's the only way to be sure.
Hudson: Fuckin' A...
Burke: Ho-ho-hold on one second. This installation has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
Ripley: They can fucking *bill* me.

i don't know, we did claim to be morally superior, we came in saying we were better and we would show them how civilize people do things... so you have to understand their outrage when these pictures showed up...

nah... fuck that.

FUCK THAT!
I am so glad that this thread has already been started cause I was about to start one!
I just read the headlines and cannot even begin to put into words (but I'll try anyways) how fucking pissed I am!
How many people have to die before we all say ENOUGH! We were lied into this mess, we are now hated across the globe, this administration continues to lie and deceive the public about this "war" and people are still saying, "Yeah, fuckin kill those towelheads!".
You fuckin morons, they are winning! You wanna keep saying "Bring em' on"??? How many people do you need to satisfy your blood lust, you savage pricks; EVOLVE already! What? Are we gonna kill more of them cause they killed one of ours now? That's intelligent; WHEN YOU'RE LOSING THE FUCKING WAR!
Hell, the General in charge of the Falluja missions admitted
we need to get out ! This guys on the front lines and saying, "They should leave very quickly, very quickly or there will be problems." But yet, the "president" is still supporting Rumsfeld , hmmm...wonder why?
775 soldiers dead since the start of this bullshit, and you people want more???????????
Savage, fucking lunatics!
Standing up and speaking out against this bullshit, fucking war does not make you a hippie or a tree-hugger, get some balls and wise up chumps!

As stated in a previous response by me: "I don't think that will help the situation at all." or something there abouts.

All terrorists need to be strung up by their fingernails, but we shouldn't punish the innocent.
We got rid of their last abuseive dictator, we shouldn't let America become the next abuseive dictator.

Xterrapin, we aint losing shit. I blame you and your kind as much for this guy dying as the cowards that did it. You and I both know we could level Fallujah in hours if we had to. Its people like you who give these terrorists the will to fight on. Its people like you who have tied the hands of his administration with your partisan political attacks using our soldiers as the pawns in your pathetic power grab.

You and your pathetic Senators being so indignant about this prison BS when claiming they shouldve been notified when they have known for months and said nothing until it was politically expedient to do so. Calling for Rumsfeld to resign. I dont remember any of you calling for the resignation of the Sec of Defense when those soldiers raped that girl in Okinawa under Clintons watch?

Fucking Kennedy and Hillary and Kerry and Daschle and all these other scum getting our guys killed because their words are saying to the enemy "you can win." They should all be lined up against the wall!

I have seen the video. If you want I will link to it. But be warned, it is graphic, it is intense.

Its time for this administration to stop pussy footing around and start dropping the daisy cutters. A proportional response to Abu Grhaib woudlve been to make this poor jewish kid eat a ham sandwhich while singing "Yes jesus loves me." Not beheading him.

These people are animals, they should have no rights in this world, they should have no defenders. Yet they do. Right here in our own country no less. These are the same people who flew planes into the buildings and the pentagon.

Keeping in mind hat we are already there, what would be your solution to this?

All this crap makes me so goddamn pissed! I didn't think going to Iraq was right in the first place. But we did and "mission accomplished". What? Whos ideals are running this country anyway? Perhaps its just as simple as a personal agenda? WTF?
The murder that took place just shows that these dickheads have no bounds.They've done it before and they will do it again. Its fricken infuriating! These people (Islamic Terrorists) simply view us as infidels and their work won't be done until the world is an Islamic state.
Whats done is done and now we have a huge mess on our hands. That piece of shit country isn't worth all this BS.
Imagine...just imagine if our "administration" had spent even a fraction of this money on the homeland. I just love seeing an Iraqi police officer armed with US weapons and US supplied uniform dancing in the street with the inurgents. Good place for my tax dollars! :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, i'm no tree hugging liberal but i'm not a conservative either.
As for what to do now? All I know is i'm pissed!

This might work.
Don't forget though, we shouldn't have been there in the first place!

What about this ?
Just a reminder though, we shouldn't have gone to begin with.

Gen. Wesley Clark has some ideas too.
Although, we shouldn't even be there!

We should have finished it in the first war. We had snipers/assassins very close to Saddam. And they were recalled.

This just in...
"...family angry with American govenment over son\'s brutal death"

What was this all about? Why was he detained to begin with? Thsi gets wi\eirder by the minute.

OK, but since we are there, what should we do? Just pulling out will make things worse. According to you, striking back will make things worse. What should we do? the UN is a fucking joke, they fostered the atmosphere that let Saddam consolidate his power with their illegal side deals. Then acted all indignant when we wanted to stop him because they knew they would be exposed.

How many times can Wesley Clarke use the word neoconservative in one essay? He gives no solutions. Patience? In ten years these radicals will be much more organized and possibly have Soviet era weapons at thier disposal. Since their sole purpose is to either convert us to Islam or kill us, I doubt pateince and understanding is the answer. I for one will not be worshipping Allah.

xterrapin, that's the same AP story that's all over the net. Someone in another thread linked to it earlier on Yahoo's page with a different, less slanted title.

A wierd thing is why exactly was the guy there? Did he really pack up his shit and head to Iraq just looking for a job? It says he didn't find one and was headed home. Was he planning on picking up the local classifides and starting the interview process?

I can't understand why any American would go there unless they were allready a contract worker or worked for a company that was a contractor.

It sucks that he was killed and used as an example by pissed off millitants. I can see why the government might have been a little suspicious of the bearded guy who just shows up with nothing to do looking for a job.

The fact that he was there really bewilders me.

Indignant?
775 dead because he "acted all indignant"?

C'mon, even Colin Powell can come up with a better one than that. :rolleyes:

I am sorry but, soldiers have no choice whether they get to go to war for the most part. A civilian does. He knew the risks and obviously accepted them. He is yet another casualty of war and I am sure he will be missed by many. Have we forgotten about the civilian contractors that were fire bombed, tied to cars and drug around the streets, and hung from a bridge. They were personal security specialists for Blackwater Inc. and paid the price. They knew the risks. Why doesn't everyone get so emotional about that? This is not the first time the enemy has targeted American civilians and it won't be the last. If we pull out now, another dictator will take over and we'll be back at ground zero so we can't just leave.

WTF are you talking about? Are you saying that the UN countries France , Germany, Russia were acting out of a sense of altruism? Give me a fucking break.

What is happening in Iraq is a direct result of the impotency of the Clinton Administration. There were over five seperate incidents during his administration that were directly linked to Al-Queda, at the time!! He neglected to take action. At one point our Special Purpose Units had Bin Laden in their sights but due to Clinton's inability to properly yield the military he did nothing. He slashed the operating budget of the CIA in favor of "technology" and we had 9/11. What is going on now needs to be done. You can not expect a group of people to one day live under tyranny and the next well, nothing. We as a Military are not peace keepers, nor humainitarian workers. Our only lot in life is the death and destruction of our enemies with the smallest loss to ourselves. It is that simple and true. Talk to a young Lieutenant who has lost one of his soldiers, or talk to the notificaton officer who has to go to the door of parents and you will then understand the rage and frustration that we experience. I am not condoning those actions but lets face the facts. You are presented with the filth that is killing your fellow soldiers what would you do? I am very glad to see that most of you here at XOC are very supportive of our military and I thank you. Rest assurd the job will be done and incidents like this probably will happen again but those individuals will be brought to justice. Again, Thanks.

I get such a kick out of the few who squak about how bad this is, how we should be the bigger people and how we should not be there. Well the one common denominator is that the "squakers",
1. Never spent time in the
armed forces. (with
a Combat arms ID)
2. Raised with a silver
spoon in their mouth.
3. A combo of both.
Hell, I could be wrong but if not all then certainly the majority.

If anyone is interested in seeing the complete video, here it is:
http://video.bmj.net/Alluh_Akbar.wmv
http://www.newsfilter.org/beheading.wmv
Also a crappier version at ogrish.com should the above two vanish.

Brent

It sickens me to see that. From seeing infants in mass graves in Bosnia being eaten by pigs to the violence in Saudi.
In my mind humans are by far the most evil and vicious animal there is. Acts like that will be dealt with on the battlefield, I can promise that. There is nothing more lethal than a pissed of soldier with a big gun, a controled lethality that is.

I shudder at the thought of any more of our soldiers being taken hostage.

Berg was a civilian contractor... but I'm splitting hairs...

The point is not to be taken hostage, alive that is, Call it macho BS, but thats the deal.

Im done talking about this.

That shit pisses me off and makes want want to join the marines and kick some terrorist ass. If anything happens to my wife, that's where I'm going. Thank God we have a great president doing his job, but I'm worried that more of the country is falling for the media b.s. and vote for that loser from the left that will pussy out and let the terrorists off. Oh well, recent polls show that my country is more educated than I give them credit for and are voting for Bush.

Barbarians!!! Makes me shudder in disbelief, anger! They don't even have the balls to show their faces to the camera unlike our soldiers!

I'm curious...why does the media come up? They aren't the one's with the photos, the Pentagon is.

You been asleep for two weekd Moby? I blame Dan Rather for the death of this man personally. "Fire Rather for war crimes!"

But who is releasing them?

Come to think of it...who exactly took the pics? Was it "embedded" media or fellow soldiers?

If it was fellow soldiers, you gotta wonder why they'd be dumb enough to take the pictures. Or at least wonder why the ones doing it would be dumb enough to let someone take them (then again, they were dumb enough to do the shit).

The Taguba report and the pics were leaked before Rumsfeld even got the damn thing. I think the media should not have run the photos personally for the benefit of the country and our fighting forces. They chose, IMO, partisan political opportunities over the safety of our soldiers.

The media IMO has always been a foe in any military campaign/operation. The media would sooner get a picture of soldiers being ambushed, while haveing prior knowledge than give any warning of the impending doom.

I would agree with the media being an impedances and sometimes foe when it comes to military campaigns.

I have a buddy who was a Marine in Desert Storm. He was on the USS Iwo Jima waiting to invade an island off the coast of Kuwait. While they were waiting to get in position, a news story came over CNN and reported that the Marines had already taken the island. They scrapped the mission because CNN had already let the cat out of the bag. Unbelieveable!

LOL.

We've got a arrogant clown in the White House who is singlehandedly destroying US credibility around the globe. Kinder and gentler, my ass.

Wow. You sound like a John Kerry ad. You used the perfect arrogance BS rhetoric as well. So do you think we should turn over the control of our troops to the UN like Kerry does?

Once again IMO, all politicians are idiots. Fuckers have no fucking clue, makeing military decisions. Let the Generals fight the wars, maintain a short leash.

Need I mention Somalia.

You are the arrogant one. Who gives a fuck about US cedibility anymore? We have to protect ourselves. We have to take the fight to them, before they take it to us. We don't have time to pussy foot around waiting for Germany, France, and the UN to send their measly 500 or so troops. If we had Gore in office right now, the US would be a burning pile of ashes...it is the same thing that will happen if John Kerry the flip flopper ends up in office. The first thing he will do is bow at the alter of the UN.

I pose this question to you? How would you have handled this situation?

I don't claim to have all the answers but you seem to have already found my thread on getting out of Iraq

Flame on.

I am not flaming, you are spewing. You are starting and commenting in multiple threads about the "clown" in the whitehouse. I am merely commenting on your left wing spew.

I sounded harsh in that statement, and I don't mean to. It is fine that we disagree. I just hate the fact that the worlds most popular sport (including America's) is hating the US. How soon people forget what happend on September 11th. That served as a open ended contract on any Terrorists, or supporter of terrorism's life. We need to protect ourselves, and kill every single last motherfucking terrorist at all costs. We can make friends after we are safe.

YOU sir, just said the got damn truth! Though, I think we can make friends along the way.

"Nemo me impune lacessit."

Sickening video. Absolutely sickening. But if we think that this situation is going to improve on June 30, 2004, or whenever the handover date is, or by leaving IRaq we will be stopping the problem, then we are sorely mistaken. This is an issue that has been bubbling beneath the surface for years. It has grown larger because this is how these people have always lived. Now, they are taking it to the US, and they have become more brazen. Used to be, they just hi-jacked an airliner. Then they crashed one into our Twin Towers.

They have become more bold, and we are nearly powerless to stop it. There is no answer other than complete and total National Isolationism.

Sorry if that somes extreme, but we can't keep forking out bucks and lives for the sake of some "movement" somewhere in the world.

Our soldiers are being punished for takeng pictures of these animals in humiliting positions while in prison for KILLING Americans, whether they be soldiers or civilians, the enemy on the other hand is cutting off heads of bound, unarmed civilians and putting it on the web.

The politicians and other clueless people speak of international law. @#$% that! International Law means exactly that and the U.S seems to be the only country bound by by it. For example: The International Red Cross complained about how the Iraqi POW's were being trated at least 39 times. Did they make or even attempt to visit our soldiers/civilian captives that our enemy was holding? NO! Why?, because, they had no idea where they were, and they feared for their own safety. This is not the 1940's, 50's or 60's where international law was somwhat respectedand the Red Cross visited every POW on both sides. This is a new game with new rules kids. This is a new era of combat and tactics. THe international community seems to be less inclined to force these animals to abide by International Law, assuming it exist outside of our reality.

THe politicians seem to be more concerned with their careers and where they fall on the food chain then the direction this great nation is going. Sons and daughters are sacrificing their lives for their country and all the Politicians can think of is how they can get the best lick in. This country is where it is because of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. Serving your country one must sweat, bleed and sacrifice, it does not intail sitting safely behind a desk sending "lambs" to the slaughter.

Fucking politicians!

The enemy cut off the head of one man and put it on the internet. It's a horrible thing. But it isn't plural.

Is every man and woman that we are holding guilty of a crime? Has that been verified and by what court? Who are you to say who is being held and for what? Can you say and with what certainity that all of those men and women are being held for killing American soldiers?

We are playing by our rules but it's allright because they are OUR rules.

Are you certain the CIA or the millitary has not tortured or killed an enemy combatant during an interrogation? If they had, does it make it allright since it was done with a purpose that would further our cause under a cloak of secrecy?

Are we now able to justify inhumane behavior because our own have been the recipiant inhumane behavior?

The ability to have these open discussion IS one of the great things about this country. I don't hate the US but I have lost all respect for GWB and all of the politicians who think they know better than the military commanders. As someone posted earlier, let the military run the war - not some pencil pushers in Washington. Last summer, a general was publicly rebuked for suggesting that we needed substantially more troops to keep peace in Iraq. Fall out of line with the Bush administration and pay the consequences. Yeah, the general had no idea what he was talking about. Stupid fucking politicians!

That is such a load of shit and you know it.

I don't think we have the time, space, or resources to just go around and arrest whoever. I obviously don't know (because I am not there), but I can assure you that the people that are being held are there for a reason! Either they have killed, plotted to kill, or know somebody who has.

Does it matter whether or not they are guilty of a crime? We are one of the few nations that actually have laws about being incarcerated with just cause, and since no one else is following international law (BS anyway), then why should we follow our own laws on these savage people's turf. Do you think if they came here and committed the act of mass murder that we can't go there and incarcerate anyone we want to?

I hope that we can all continue this discussion intelligently without resorting to yelling and screaming like a bunch of militant islamists!

This argument is fucking retarded. We follow the rules. If our guys don't they get punished. Does it make it harder to fight a war sometimes? Yes. Being the good guys and doing the right thing is always harder. If we don't do the right thing, we WILL lose the moral authority we pocess now.

I agree, we must maintain the moral authority. I did not suggest that we ignore any laws. I can honestly say maltreatment of fellow soldiers (enemy) does happen. It is impossible for ANY written law to overcome an emotional soldier in the field, be it in any war past or present. It is impossible for those who have not experienced the level of violence/stress that combat is inherant for, to understand, so please reframe from assuming you know what you are talking about.

FUCK THAT! ... FUCK YOU!!

What are we loosing? The war was won over a year ago. What we are fighting now are terrorists and assorted Islamoziod monsters.

What do you mean by EVOLVE? Does that mean surrender to the terrorists? Is that leftist lingo for appeasement?

Are you claiming this country should not be fighting terrorists?

The whole war on terrorism would be much easier to fight if it were not for the constant whining by anti-American leftist pricks like you who are more concerned with the rights of terrorist enemies than the lives of your own countryman.

Every one of these Islamic terrorist bastards would gladly kill you. They would gladly rape and murder your wife. They would slit your throat and the throat of your little son.

It's people like YOU xterrapin who are just as much an enemy as are the terrorists.

NOTE TO SELF: Add xterrapin to the "ass kicking" list.

That's what Im talking about!
Xterrapin, you must not get out much, we were hated long before all this shit kicked off. We are the billy bad asses of the world and MOST others resent us for it. My book knowledge may be lacking but my life experiences have taught me alought ( thanks to the ARMY). I have a love/hate relationship for the military, but if it comes down to picking sides, I know and my brothers at arms know, where I stand.

Please refrain from acting all high and mighty dickhead. I agree with you. I was answering the ones who say we SHOULD stoop down to their level purposefully. I understand that things happen in the heat of battle. Of course the goings on in Abu Gharaib could hardly be called in the heat of battle. My point was that we are better than they are, and follow the rules for a reason. Pull your panties out of your ass.

How so? I'll whine all day long, but I have no impact on the decisions Bush makes. A war on terrorism is about as ineffective as you could get, no matter how you wage it.

I wasn't reffering to you man. Sorry I gave the wrong impression. Damn.

No problem. This is the ALR after all.

BTW, John Kerry reccomended some replacements for Rummy today. They included Carl Levin, which I found quite funny. Why not put Teddy in there?

The man was there on his own money grubbin' freewill. They tell you the dangers involved when you take the job. He should have known better. $130k tax free ain't worth getting killed over.

Either we get out of Iraq very soon, or turn our troops loose and let them do their jobs and damn the liberals in this country.

Oh, that's right. Bush declared "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" and that makes the war over. Sometimes you really are too much. I would bet that most soldiers in Iraq would not agree that the war is over.

Another favorite line of Bush and the Republicans - if you don't support Bush then you are supporting the terrorists. Any dissenting opinions could not possibly be valid. BTW, have you ever heard Bush admit to a mistake. Of course not, he is perfect in his mind.

He apparently didn't have a job over there either. The circumstances of his being in the country are quite strange it seems.

What would you have us do? Sit back and wait for another attack? So far it seems it has been pretty effective. I haven't seen any plains flying into buildings lately. :rolleyes:

Neither have I, but I didn't see any before, either. I think shit's gonna happen. I don't think you can wage a war on ideology. You can kill the man, but you can't kill the idea.

I don't know what we can do, but a better job of protecting our borders might be a start.

The mission was to remove the Sadam regime, isn't it removed? We can't help it that every terrorist from around the world has came into Iraq to blow themselves up and take some Americans and Iraqis with them. They are trying to create the picture that we are losing the war, and a large part of America is eating it up. The Americans (liberal or not) that are freaking out about it is motivating the terrorists more.

What mistake has Bush made, and why should he apologize? Has Clinton apologized for sitting on his ass while this whole problem was brewing?

I think you're right.

But on my list of things to worry about, a "terrorist strike" is near the bottom . . . :rolleyes:

That doesn't surprise me Graham. You Canucks haven't had anything to worry about for a couple generations now. You have had us watching your back.

What part of 9-11 did you miss?

Sure you can. If you kill enough of them and free the rest of the people the people will turn on the terrorists.

He wasn't there for money, but to help rebuild the city and do his small part in a huge movement. He represented himself and didn't have a crew to work with. He wasn't a contractor of any of the companies involved with the rebuilding of Iraq. He had been on another trip and almost died because he gave his food and water to others that needed it more. He showed them how to make bricks out of material that was available. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His only crime was being an American in an anti-American area.

Madman, hopefully one day I will make it to the top of your list; or at least one below Hillary.

You wanna win the war against terror? Stop being a god damn terrorist. We reap what we sew, fucko!

I didn't, thanks for asking.

You will never be able to kill enough people to wipe out the ideas. That's the greatest thing about ideas. They're intangible. They're recorded. And sooner or later, someday, those ideas will be revived and acted upon once again, for better or for worse.

Hitler and his crew are gone, but the ideology is still there and revered by many -- even in this country.

Right, we just have to worry about everybody pointing their guns at our Southern neighbour, and hope they don't miss their targets. :rolleyes:

You illustrated my point for me very well. Hitler is gone, and the nimrods following his ideals have been reduced to a group of white trash idiots that shave their heads and look tough. That is about it.

For now. The same was probably true for Bin Laden 40 years ago.

These come to mind off of the top of my head:

- Iraq is poised to use WMD, and that is why we need to go to war immediately.

Still searching for WMD. Any day now.

- Americans will be welcomed as liberators.

Funny but I think the word Iraqis use to describe us is occupiers. Big difference.

- Iraq's oil revenue will pay for the war and the reconstruction of the country.

Is that why we have spent almost $200 BILLION so far? I'm sure we couldn't have used any of that money in the US. Health care? Jobs? Education? Nah, we'll just borrow more money from the Treasury.

- We only need 100,000 troops to secure the whole country.

Pentagon planners had originally suggested 400,000 soldiers would be needed. I guess Bush knows better than the military.

Actually this whole movement started about 70 years ago. The Brits fucked the whole thing up rather nicely.

As far as the weapons go - Iraq did (and probably still does) possess weapons of mass destruction, and they have used them. When I was in the military, we would study satelite photos of mobile weapons labs moving out the back door as inspectors walked through the front door. Even your hero John Kerry said that he supports the actions agains Sadam because he possess weapons of mass destruction

As far as Americans being welcomed as liberators - Are you in Iraq or have you been there? We are being welcomed as liberators. The only thing that is being reported is the negative stuff. You aren't hearing about all the happy people in Iraq. You aren't seeing the little girls and women going to schools now. We have done so much for the Iraqi people, and the majority of them are very happy and grateful.

As far as the Oil Revenue paying for the war - Things are costing more than we estimated, and no one else is helping with the costs. This is not Bush's mistake, is merely a mis-calculation by one of his aides or staff. Can you blame him when he is misinformed?

As far as the 100,000 troops - I assure you that Bush listens to his military staff and doesn't make off the wall decesions about how many troops we will send. We didn't predict that every extremeist Muslim from around the world would come into Iraq to complicate things. We didn't predict that the left and the media would politicize this war and motivate the terrorists to keep fighting.

In reference to your liberator comment:

Why don't you read this letter from another thread on XOC. Maybe you can come to your senses...

Here is the thread

I would like to see you have the conversation that you are having on this board with this guy. If you are an American, you will put your liberal views aside and realize that we are doing good things in Iraq.

There is no point in arguing about this war that we are in. What is done is done and all we can do now is to keep our resolve and see it to the end. The biggest thing that you all and America can do is stand behind YOUR soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and coast guardsmen that are fighting and dying each day. You can argue politics all you want but we are all a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks. National and international politics is far too big for any one man to control. The presidency is not what it used to be. We need to stop worrying about what the rest of the world thinks and do what we know is right. For those who say slaughter them all, we as Americans have never done that. We don't reduce our selves to that level and it has worked in the past and will work again. If your not an American then shut up because frankly we don't give a flying fuck what you think of us because your country exists because we do. My rant for the day!!!

Since we are in the mood of quoting troops in Iraq, here's a good one.
This letter was sent by mail from Iraq from Specialist Mike Prysner:

Dear Mr. Moore:
I’m writing this without knowing if it’ll ever get to you. I’m writing it not knowing why, or knowing what I’m going to say. I’m writing it not knowing if I’ll ever finish it or mail it. I’m writing it from the trenches of a war (that’s still going on,) not knowing why I’m here or when I’m leaving. I’ve toppled statues and vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and struggling to learn how to understand.

I was in Vicenza, Italy when I heard your Oscar acceptance speech. It was the day before I boarded a plane and experienced a “combat landing” in uncharted territory in northern Iraq. It was such a surreal feeling—the only light came from a red bulb—we sat shoulder to shoulder in silence. We were told to expect heavy artillery/chemical attacks. I can’t say I know what was on the minds of those men packed next to me, but I assume it was thoughts of family and religion. But me, a single 20 year old, I was thinking about what you had said. I joined the army as soon as I was eligible – turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip, ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words repeating in my head.

My time in Iraq has always involved finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation. I discovered that the result of the war and the actions of G.W. cannot be treated as the same issue. Bush accidentally did a good thing for the Iraqi people. After the fact he's starting to claim humanitarian intentions for going to war - obviously bullshit. But he realizes that that is the only positive outcome. I could explain what I've seen here; a people forced into poverty & ignorance – but I'll spare you. I try not to think about the ultimate future of this place. I'm sure we'll cause them to fall victim to Banana Republic and Joe Millionaire, with a puppet president and monopolized oil industry. But there will be plenty of time in the future to worry about those things.

I can't say I know what I believe. I am willing to accept that my opinions are a result of a given subconscious, not sufficient knowledge. Do I support care for the low income class because I truly understand the system, or because I've personified inadequacies and identified with those who experience struggle. Does a conservative oppose gay rights because he genuinely understands the issue or because he's scared to face deeper levels of humanity? What if you could be given a reason for everything you believe, but the reason is unrelated to the topic – the result of a life and a psyche? Will we believe those things the same way we used to? I call myself a liberal because I've been moved to tears by the words of Paul Wellstone, scenes in "The Awful Truth," the funeral of Matthew Sheppard, and the homeless people in the city I once lived in. It's not what I know, it's what I felt. It's dangerous to rely on emotions to guide your moral compass – but it’s the only way to be honest. I understand everything I believe may be wrong; that I believe for a reason, and that reason may not be reality. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. Maybe just that I can't look at this war politically. I can only look at it as an experience that has taught me that life is dictated by seconds and inches; one that has caused me to face death and loss and fear. And at its core, stripped of the WMD's and no-contest contracts, it's been about one thing: serving my country. The most difficult thing has been learning how to be proud of that. This country, I'm serving,…is it America? Has it ever been? It's always bothered me that, despite the American philosophy, it became NECESSARY for a civil right movement, it became NECESSARY to form the ACLU. I've simultaneously battled Saddam loyalists and these questions. Kind of an odd setting for suddenly doubting my patriotism. But while my fight with those trying to kill my friends & I is far from ending, the fight within myself has ended.

I found what I've been fighting for. It's been you, all along. I hated you on a plane ride in the dark with shaking hands. But you've been the roof of my loyalty, my bravery, and my dignity. Mr. Moore, you are America. This isn't a "I'm a hip liberal & I'll be cool if I get an autographed copy of Stupid White Men" letter. I've faced every weapon, from SCUDs to swords, and I've had to face why. And you've been the answer. I'm serving a country in which you live; where you're allowed to speak and PEOPLE LISTEN; where you're allowed to write and PEOPLE READ. What a beautiful country – every injustice has a prosecutor – every struggle has a defender. We are still a country being born. Compassion will never lose to conservatism…the country could be ruled by Jerry Falwell and Dick Cheney – but there will always be tears, as long as there is injustice and oppression and greed and hypocrisy. And there will always be you, the people you've taught, the lives you've influenced. You reminded me that America exists, and I suppose this letter is meant to thank you for that. I can't explain the pride you've instilled in me, and the comfort you've given me, to know that if I find myself fallen on the battlefield, I gave my life serving something I loved and truly believed in.

Sincerely,
Mike Prysner

Michael Moore has several more here .

I will never visit fuck face Michael Moores website.

Great source by the way.

:rolleyes:

What?
Would you prefer Peabody Award winning journalist, Bill O\'Reilly?

Of course anyone writing a letter of praise to Michael Moore is going to be a misguided idiot. Look at all the leftist "talking points" in that guys letter. He talks about the homeless, the homosexual poster boy Matthew Sheppard, the ACLU, Jerry Falwell. Give me a fucking break with that bullshit. It makes you wonder if it's even a real letter. Considering Moore makes his living by being a propagandist and outright liar, he has zero credibility regarding anything.

Here is a video where he admits his work is just HIS opinions. He even lies by saying he does not present his work as something it is not and he doesn't disguise his ideas. Sure he does. He disguises his propaganda in the guise of a 'documentary'. He presents his work to the minions of idiots as fact.

Click here for video of fat, leftist, lying slob
(Windows Media High Speed)

I'm a terrorist? Are you saying America is a terrorist nation? (Maybe I should spell it 'Amerika' like leftist scum like you).

You're a fucked up guy xterrapin. I can only imagine what happened to you or what kind of people must have spawned you or what type of upbringing you had to make you hate your own country so much. All I've heard from you over two years is nothing but 'blame America first' bullshit. The 'we deserve it' kind of shit that scum like you spew out with regularity.

I've noted long ago whose side in this struggle with terrorists you are on.

-----------------
John Kerry represents Vietnam Vets like Michael Moore represents Slim Fast

Wow, if there was ever a poster child for natural selection it is Xterapin . Whenever I hear liberal bullshit it makes me cringe as to what this country has become. A politically correct, fag loving, pussy ass bunch of pathetic cowards who are too afraid they might hurt someones feelings or offend the world that we allow planes to fly into our fucking buildings. The liberal/socialist mentality is eroding our morals and values. Well guess what mother fuckers people like me exist that believe in family values and that guys sucking cocks is wrong and there are a lot more of us than you can have nightmares about. History shows that great civilizations erode due to people like liberals and their ideology. Just some food for thought.

Forgot something:
Snoopy do you have a link to that picture so I could use it as my background. That kicks ass!

If you want to read some fucked up manifestations of leftist mentality related to the Nick Berg murder.... it is on Democratic Underground.

These people represent the leftist element of the Democrat Party. These people suffer from the same mental affliction as xterrapin.

Let's take a look at this train wreck of human thought:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...mesg_id=1583890
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15882 68
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15887 58
http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...mesg_id=1586040
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15884 36
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15878 52
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15884 08
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15880 26
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x15880 12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...mesg_id=1581683

Nick Berg's father has some type of connection to the socialist/communist organization International ANSWER . So many of these leftist freaks have deemed his murder was a plot by Americans made to look like terrorists.

I cringe when thinking that these people vote. They of course vote for Democrats.

I wonder what xterrapin's screen name is over there....

wow that is very interesting stuff. makes a great case for forced labotomies and vascetomies!!!!!

About the beheading! There is a whole lot of people out there that will put their two cents in and don't have a clue what they are talking about. The person had NO Bussiness over there! On that note there should be no civilans in the Theater of Operation. This is still a war no matter what anybody says and too allow unarmed, untrained people in this area is asking for exactly what happened. With the amount of cilvians in the area expect it to happen agian or something much worse. These people have no fear of death and that makes them a dangerous enemy. They train their childern to kill as soon as they are old enough to hold a weapon, they are tought hate Americans. Beleive me I know this and it is a Fact. If you have been in combat and have walked in the shoes of a COMBAT VETERAN then those of you that don't fit the bill need to keep you damn mouths shut! Those of you that may think the Veterans of this country are high and mighty it's because we are, those of you that disagree, where were you when your country needed you?

good call Leadtheway (ranger???) plus the lure of a tax free high paying job helps many in their decision making process. hopefully our guys can find the scum and they can taste some american metal!!

The war against the Iraqi army is over. That ended last year.

Yes... We are still engaged in conflict, except now it is with terrorists and assorted Islamozoid factions. The old Iraqi government no longer exists. The old Iraqi army no longer exists. They crumbled. That phase of the war is in the past. That part of the mission was accomplished. The government knew Iraq would be a focal point for Islamic terrorists. This is a different phase of the war. The next phase of the war is fighting them in conjunction with forces from the new Iraqi government.

Too bad we don't have a president like Truman anymore.

"The Buck Stops Here."

The Government/Pentagon knew the deal! The Joint Cheif Staff advised the Pentagon to send 200,000 troops and they ignored the information and only sent 120,000. What the reason was who knows, but the bottom line is that there was not enough troops on the ground at the time of the take over to control the situation and that lands us where we are today and in the long run cost more American lives.

I did read that letter anderair, and it did say that we are an occupying force. I will help you out and post the part that you didn't include.

Thanks for playing

There is absolutely no accountability in the current Bush administration. In the real world, people get fired for mistakes that make their CEO look bad in public. How about the intelligence that Bush claimed that Iraq was getting nuclear materials from Niger? Proven completely false but one of the mainstays of Bush's State of the Union address. Nobody fired.

Since people are not reprimanded for providing bad intelligence to the Commander in Chief, they have no incentive to check the validity of their intelligence. Perhaps if anyone was held responsible for their misinformation, others would get the message.

Just to correct the person you quoted: The United States was not an occupying force in Japan, American Foces never fought on Japan's Soil. The dropping of the Atomic Bomb was to advoid an invasion which would of cost over a million American lives. The war in the Pacific bounced from island to island, the most famous out of them all was Chichi Jima. A matter of fact American Airmen were beheaded by Japanese soldiers on this island. If you want to educate yourself read the book called "Fly Boys" by James Bradley.

The old Iraqi army no longer exists because the US disbanded them and let them go. One of the stupidest decisions made in the war. I believe there were around 300,000 soldiers. Do you really think they went home and are now happily supporting the US? Now we are trying to recruit them back to help in places like Fallujah.

Anderair, you have spoken like a true politician, Democrat/lefty, im sure, not a F'n clue.

As far as Leadtheway, glad to see there is another military man out there.

Go ahead, clue me in. I'd love for you to point out the inaccuracy. The US disbanded the Iraqi army. It was a stupid decision because it dispersed them throughout the country. Now, how do you tell them apart from the rest of the countries citizens?

Seeing this video yesterday, my guts churned. Not because of the graphicness of it, but because he was an American. A American civilian at that.

Whether he's innocent or not is up for discussion. I say this because though he might be "innocent" in the fact that he did nothing criminal or immoral, he also was stupid enough to go to Iraq at a time like this. Yes, I said STUPID.

American civilians have no business in Iraq until victory is unilaterally complete. America should deport any American civilians who are found there, no questions asked.

Capturing Saddam and killing his sons wasn't and isn't enough. The will of the Iraqi people must not just be bent, but completely broken and crushed underneath the heel of an American GI boot for victory to be absolute. President Bush can crow "Mission Accomplished" till the cows come home, but victory in Iraq is nowhere near finished.

The will of the people, all the people MUST be broken. That is how wars are won. We succeeded in WWII, and we failed in Vietnam. The differences in outcome should be proof enough of what I'm saying. I don't understand why people find this so difficult to comprehend.

I personally agree with leaflets being dropped on Fallujah stating that the city will be utterly destroyed in 48 hours. Those who don't get out, die. Tough shit. That's war for you. The innocents die with the guilty. It's sad, but war is hell, people. Hell on earth. And we need to continue to do that, up to and including Baghdad itself, if we must. The country of Iraq and ALL of its people need to understand that we are not fucking around.

But people won't put up with that. And for the love of God, spare me the lefty/righty BULLSHIT that always pops up in these goddamn discussions. Let the military do it's fucking job, and have the JCOS report to the president when the country is fully secure. It's not a liberal or conservative idea, it's goddamn common sense about war tactics. Sure, there should be laws about governing POW's, but on the battlefield any joke of a "convention" that thinks they could apply any sort of rules or "order" to the chaos that is a warzone are only fooling themselves. There are no rules in the fire area.

It's too late to pull out of Iraq now. We are neck deep in the shit and the job needs to get done.

Are you fucking kidding me? Of course you can blame him. This isn't a simple case of Bush & the Gang missing a goddamn port-a-pottie. They are talking tens of BILLIONS of dollars here.

Why is it everytime Bush gets something right, he's a genius, but everytime he fucks up (this is definitely not the first time), it's cause he is misinformed? Give me a goddamn break! Something like this is not anything you can slip by the people.

This is what, the third time now he's asking for more money? Of course, Congress will fork it over, no questions asked. We have no choice now. But if this has been a simple case of Bush being misinformed every single time, not to mention his State of the Union gaffe, then it seems to me this man likes to assemble a staff that's even more incompetent than he is. I do not want someone like that leading my country. :rolleyes:

You, or other people on here, can brand me a leftist if you want. I'm not, but do what you will. Nor am I a righty. I could give two shits about "the party line". If more idiots in this goddamn country took the agendas important to them, broke them down individually, and made their own decisions on it, this country would be a hundred times better off. Unfortunately, we have too many morons in this country who want to, need to follow "the party line".

Of course it won't happen, because it's called common sense. Which sadly, WAY too many politicians and their followers completely lack.

Amen, Chris.

Wow...!! I'm surprised you said that. I agree we should be a lot tougher, but I don't feel all the Iraqi people are the enemy and should suffer "the boot".

This is where you are wrong. It is very much a lefty/righty thing because the left has been a significant obstacle in prosecuting this war. We can't get tough in Iraq. It's not because of concerns of the "Arab street". It is because of the reactions of the left in this country.

We can't administer "the boot" you speak of. It seems we can't even put women's panties on the heads of terrorist scumbags to make them talk. The left is an enemy of the war on terrorism. The left does not operate from a perch of common sense. All they care about is political power. If making us loose a war means them gaining political power, that is all they care about. Their loyalties are not the same.

That is the reality of what is going on.

The left is undermining our efforts at every turn. What do you think the outcome of the Iraq prison scandal will be (a scandal blown out of proportion by the American left)? It will result in new procedures and rules that will yield ZERO information gathered from any future scumbags caught in the field. Giving the enemy a huge advantage. They will not care if they are caught anymore because being captured will mean nothing but good meals and a dry bed.

The left is the enemy within. It's about time people wake up and start to realize this.

Why?

I happen to disagree. The conservative party is full of shit just like the left party. They all are, and THAT, my friend, is the problem.

All political parties, their followers, and the politicans themselves have their agendas. I just believe it is not only dense, but incredibly stupid to follow such a blind course like that.

I'm telling you, this country would be better off if individuals were allowed to think for themselves instead of being branded a "traitor" for thinking outside "the party line". But that's what happens, and it bites this country in the ass.

Fuck, I beg for the day that political parties are completely overhauled, if not wiped out and started over.

as George Washington said "Political parties in their best form are but a necessary evil."

If you say that the stuff that comes out of Hillary, Kerry, Daschle, Kennedy, etc etc etc does not encourage the terrorists you are out of your fucking mind.

That letter from Michael Moore's website was a fucking joke. That guy went on and on like he was spouting the party line, not once did he mention anything about the actual reaction or anything else from the Iraqi people. He just went down each talking point like he was reading from a script.

In summary: "I jumped out of a plane in Iraq. We shouldnt be here, the right hates gays, bush lied , we shouldnt be here." Thank you. :rolleyes:

I am sure that the guy that wrote that letter to Michael Moore was a soldier that has a piss poor attituted. I was in for 6 years and I knew some guys like that. They get passed up for promotion, they have some beef with their superiors, and they have a overall chip on their shoulder about the military. He was probably told that he would be home 4 months ago (as many in the military were), and he is still there.

He is a minority, most of the troops serve with honor and pride and would never want to associate themselves with a fat, radical, jackass like Michael Moore. He is the PETA of the entertainment industry.

You can not be clued in, that is an impossability to which I have not the time nor the patience to attempt.

Sure, at one time a large part of the target was distinguishable, but there were always small factions that would rear their ugly heads. If you think for one moment that going into Iraq has complicated the situation, then you are mad. There is no easy solution, there may be no solution, it certainly wont come to light here.

The deal is our enemy has no care in the world, they do not respect life, child, women, or elderly. They dont understand law at the higher level, only that in war there is no rules.

THey have set the pace, outlined the rules of engagment, I have no answear, but I can tell you with no hesitation that when I was in the Army and if I were there now, there would be no conversation to be had, my goal would be to kill and to survive.

The rules of war are easy, if you have never experienced them then you can not relate.

Call me what you want, when the shit hits the fan there is no written law to dictate how I should/will act. I unwillingly will answear only to the laws of nature, if I am one of the strong then I will survive, if not then so be it.

As a morgage broker that sits behind his desk all day I don't expect him to be able to relate, and that is fine. That is the reason that he is so liberal. I welcome people like him, because that is what makes America a great place! People are free to think and say what they want, and I respect the fact that he does.

Have you ever even been outside the country Anderair? While people like airbornenurse and I volunteered multiple years of our lives to defend, support, and protect the rights of all Americans, you were brewing up your ideas of how America is such a horrible place.

Why is it that you attack America and our way of life? Why is it that you always look for the negative and the conspiracy in everything and not be content with the positive. Sure, America isn't perfect...but we try our hardest to help people and please everybody. What state would the world be in right now if America didn't exist? Where would you live? You might live under a dictatorship like the previous one in Iraq. Would the Jewish race still be around? Take a trip to a foreign country, maybe go over to Bahrain or Israel. I guarentee you come back a changed man.

The liberal/socialist ideology is very simple to understand. Let me explain. To a liberal they are right and you are wrong for believing the way you do. Sorry but that is not correct. You may disagree with me all you want but i'll be damned if you are going to tell me i am wrong for thinking the way I do. We are all wrong to someone. What matters now is what is best for our country, not the world, but the United States of America.

I don't believe Washington ever said that. Where did you hear that?

But he DID say this:

"The common and continual mischief of the spirit of Party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it."

And:

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government."

The film of the man being de-capitated may very well be fake...Maybe another government backed ploy to fire up whatever, whoever?

I say it might be faked because their is no blood anywhere...What could be up with that? Maybe the alleged American was already dead...that could explain the lack of blood gushing everywhere?

As graphic and horible a thing it was to do, much less film, it may be the latest US government "bad" film.

What???

Are you kidding? The body arrived in the United States yesterday.

Ah, the us vs. them argument. You are spewing the same shit that GWB uses whenever someone disagrees with him - attack them as un-American. I love the 'holier than thou' attitude. You and that arrogant clown Bush obviously have all the right answers for the world. We'll see who is still standing in November. Have a good day.

Have you been reading many of the threads?

"The conservative/Republican ideology is very simple to understand. Let me explain. To a conservative, they are right and you are wrong for believing the way you do."

Every political ideology thinks it's the right ideology, and the "other side" is out of their fucking minds.

Just trying to understand this....

Personally, I am outraged at his murder and the manner he was killed. It speaks volumes about the people who did this. What upsets me the most is that this guy was supposed to be there to help rebuild the country and traveled there supposedly for altruistic reasons. You would think that the people who he came to help would have done the most to help him. It probably was not smart to be there since his safety could not be guaranteed.

what is Nick Berg's story? I know he wasn;t one of the paid contractors from KBR or Halliburton. I read that he was an independant contractor who went to Iraq to help build communication antenaes and look for work. I read that he taught the local Iraqis how to make bricks out of available material. He was Jewish but they say he had an Iraqi relative(in law) who he was in contact with. Because he was Jewish, he was probably going to be killed anyway. He was missing since April 9th an probably had been killed earlier than when the video got released.

One funny thing I have noticed-the people who did the crime said it was revenge in response for the Abu Gharib prison stuff. But it has had the opposite intended effect which it has deflected attention AWAY from it. It seems like the pan Arab media is trying ignore the story altogether. One thing they say is true, it makes me(and I am sure alot of other people) less sympathetic toward the cause of the anti US groups. Part of me hopes that this will be the end of the killing but I know that;s wishful thinking.

Smoking the bowl again?

There's blood all over the place.

Your right Graham, but my side is the one that is supporting American and supporting the troops. That is the difference.

Guam. He taught people in Guam how to make bricks, not Iraq. Point is, and I mean no disresepct, is that he never had any business being there. Praise him for his charitable causes, but Iraq is no place to go and give hugs right now. Regardless, the people who murdered him are animals and should be hunted and killed as such.

Black and white much?

I'd love to live in your world. American politics can be neatly divided into two camps? Such bliss!

Politics cannot be divided so easily. Certainly, the issues surrounding such a complex situation like the war in Iraq can be divided even less easily . . .

The world is not black and white. Never has been. Nothing but complex, subtle, ever-changing shades of gray . . .

It's made a left-right issue by the left and that's the problem. I'm not saying we should all be sheep and agree with everything that this administration does, but be a little more careful what we say because the world is watching. I'm so grateful that I'm not a soldier in another country right now. With the liberal media making the American soldier look so untrustworthy and claims from the left that this is turning into another Viet Nam, it's no wonder so many of our troops are being killed. I will never be able to imagine what they have been through or what they will continue to go through. It takes a special person to continue fighting for what they believe in with such little support from an administration with its hands bound by a rope of political correctness.

That's a crock of shit Graham and you know it.

That's the moral relativist outlook. That's the outlook of non-comittal cowardice.

The world isn't that complex. There are those that wish to muddy things and portray everything as complex but that says more about them than it does about the world. It's an unwillingness to face the reality of the world around you.

This reminds me of a quote from Dante Alighieri .... "The worst place in hell is reserved for those who are neutral in times of crisis".

That's a simplistic viewpoint. Look at it this way:

We can all agree that water is good. But sometimes, without you knowing it, water can be bad if it has bacteria in it that gives you the trots. You can't see the bacteria, so when you drink it, it's good. It's not until later that you find out it's bad. So, a glass of water can be both good and bad. You can't say all glasses of water are bad if only one causes you to get sick. Therefore everything is a gray. It could be good, it could be bad. It depends on the situation.

Can anyone tell I just got back from my Costa Rican honeymoon with a nasty case of the green apple splatters?

I should have been wearing my boots before I read this post. Welcome back Wilmac...

Congratulations on your wedding. (I was wondering why you weren't around lately).

Your analogy is not very good.

Boil all your water for 10 minutes then you never need to worry about whether it is good or bad again. A simple solution to YOUR complex problem.

I would also recommend boiling terrorists for 10 minutes.

I think 20 minutes makes them safer. This shades of gray bullshit is the difference between the left and the right. One believes in good and evil, right and wrong, while the other believes in nothing.

Only a simpleton believes everything can be neatly categorised as right and wrong. All sides in all conflicts think they are right and the other side is wrong. Sometimes the morality is obvious, usually it is not. The complexities of morality are what makes religion so attractive to those who prefer not to, or lack the ability to make their own decisions.

lemsip is an anagram of simple . . .

I am not saying everything is right or wrong. Some situations are complex. Not everything is a shade of gray. Most things aren't.

Try living in El Paso you get used to bad water. I can now put just about anything in my stomach and have it come out in solid form, hahaha. As for the black/white and gray stuff it's simply a matter of perspective. All issues can be broken down to their roots and given a black/white label. That however, does not account for many of the complex issues that will evovle from the root issue. In example the war with Iraq. Do we attack them Yes/No or Black/White. Now the question is what to do now, obviously the Gray area. In truth Republican Democrat they are all a bunch of lying scum that would sell their own Mothers into prostitution if it helped their political agenda. Beseides we all know that national politics is run by Oil Compaines, Pharmacuetical (SP Sorry?)Compainies and the CIA!!!!

Were you referring to Clinton here? When did he become a Republican???

Of course there are gray areas. The problem I have with Liberals is that it seems they see everything as gray areas. Sometimes you have to chose a side, even if one side is not 100% right.

Exactly. I think a lot of our actions during the Cold War demonstrate this.

Um...if it's not 100% right, wouldn't that mean that it isn't black and white?

Don't confuse 'em. They're on a roll . . .

Just saw the video yesterday. I got sick to my stomach not because of its graphic nature but because of the anger it made me feel. The lack of morality from these pieces of shit just confuses the hell out of me.

I don't understand why the so called religion of peace would in any way defend or explain away the actions of these few twisted individuals. Example: I talked to a coworker about the persons' actions being evil and wrong. The reply I recieved was that the "US shouldn't be there in the first place imposing their will on a people." Fucking idiot. I wasn't even talking about the war just about the actions of these individuals. By the way this person is muslim.

Kick his ass and call the FBI.

I only heard audio over radio...almost crashed the X...couldn't believe the horror of his screaming & eventual gargling as (I assume) his own blood was interfereing with his screaming attempts.
Pretty sad Mr. Berg is using his son\'s death to promote political agenda.

My brother is over there. Kick some hadji ass i say!!!

Um...yeah...Hadji isn't even an Arabic name.

unless we go and invade india too!!!!

I saw a comedian about a week ago that gave his insight on the war. He said that the administration should have blamed Dale Earnhardt's death on Saddam. In his words the war would have already been over. On the second day you would have seen 15,000 bass boats crossing the ocean with beagles howling and shot guns blasting.

Oh yeah, South Carolina would lead the charge front and center.

Hell, you could probably get quite a redneck army from Smith's neck of the woods alone..

I support the troops more than you do...I have seventeen American flags on my hummer...beat that

CBS/AP

(CBS/AP) As the family of slain American Nicholas Berg gathered for the memorial service at a West Chester synagogue Friday, Attorney General John Ashcroft announced that U.S. authorities investigated Nicholas Berg for a possible connection to terrorists but determined there was no link.

Moussaoui is now in federal custody and awaiting trial on conspiracy charges stemming from the Sept. 11 attacks.

"The suggestion that Mr. Berg was in some way involved in terrorist activity, or may have been linked in some way to terrorist activity, is a suggestion that we do not have any ability to support and we do not believe is a valid one," Ashcroft said at a news conference.

The 2002 investigation determined that an e-mail address once used by Berg apparently was obtained by the Moussaoui acquaintances while Berg was briefly an engineering student at the University of Oklahoma in 1999.

cbsnews.com full story

As I was saying earlier in the week: who is this guy really? Why was he really there?

What are the odds that a Jewish guy who was questioned post 9/11 for a possible connection to terrorism decides to go to Iraq to find employment, gets detained by either Iraqi and/or U.S. forces, gets released and then finds himself kidnapped and then beheaded by Islamic terrorists.

What an incredible coincidence.

There are no such things as coincidences.

Just some interesting updates.
Was Berg in U.S. custody before being killed?

A better timeline

March 30:
Berg's father waits at JFK airport in New York for his son, who does not show up.

March 31:
The FBI tells the Berg family that Nicholas had been picked up by Iraqi police in Mosul and transferred to U.S. authority. A coalition spokesman said on May 12 that Berg was never in U.S. custody, but was detained by Iraqi policemen, who thought Berg was involved in suspicious activities. The FBI visited Berg three times while he was in detention and determined he was not involved with criminal or terrorist activities, said the spokesman.

April 5:
The Berg family sues Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department for holding their son without merit.

April 6:
Berg is released from custody, and the lawsuit is abandoned.

April 9:
Berg disappears shortly after telling his parents he would try to leave Iraq as soon as possible.

May 8:
Berg's body is found by an Army patrol on a roadside near Baghdad, and his parents are informed soon after.

May 11:
The videotaped beheading of Nicholas Berg is posted on an al Qaeda-linked Web site.

Very odd coincidence - something sounds fishy.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119896,00.html

All right. Only read this post if you think the following is possible:

There really were men on the grassy knoll and Oswald did not act alone.

Jack Ruby wasn’t really a random bar owner that was angry at Oswarld.

Sirhan Sirhan wasn’t some random guy who killed Robert Kennedy.

Marilynn Monroe was just a woman that dated J.F. Kennedy and over dosed.

UFOs exist and Area 51 is the site of government experiments with a seized downed
craft.

We were fighting in Cambodia longer and more often than our military has taken responsibility for.

We have tortured and/or killed enemy operatives to further our causes.

Our government participates or has participated in the overthrow of governments, political assassinations and other covert illegal activity through the military, the CIA or the FBI.

I might be crazy.

Now if you are still here, this is what can be considered as not being too far from the realm of possibility.

Here’s what we know.

Berg was an American.

Berg was questioned by the FBI regarding his connection to or possible contact with a known or suspected terrorist that may have a connection to the 9/11 attacks.

An e-mail address was the reason for questioning and the basis of the possible contact.

Berg is a “small businessman” who works in the telecommunications industry.

Berg made this and a prior trip to Iraq since the start of the current war under the premise of working or obtaining employment.

Berg was unable to secure employment.

Berg was not associated with any of the known contractors working on the rebuilding of Iraq nor had any known ties to any other organization contributing to the rebuilding of Iraq. .

Berg was detained by either the Iraqi police or a branch of the U.S. government forces in Iraq.

Berg’s family filed a lawsuit against the U.S. federal government regarding his detainment and he was released.

Berg’s body was found . Decapitated.

Berg’s family believes him to be dead.

What isn’t verified or substantiated./what we think we know/ what we’ve been told

Berg’s only purpose was to secure or obtain employment.

Berg did not have any ties to any terrorist organization

Berg was a suspected terrorist or had terrorist ties

The U.S. forces did in fact detain him.

U.S forces did not detain him.

He was in fact released and free to leave Iraq.

He was kidnapped.

Who found him and where.

Berg , although having a Jewish name and the possibility that he had an Israeli stamp on his passport, was in fact, Jewish.

Now based on this information, there appears to be more to the story than we are being told which of course me no choice but to speculate or devise a conspiracy theory.

Berg, once questioned by the FBI, never stopped being suspected of having ties to terrorism, a desire to know or be associated with terrorists, or ceased having knowledge of terrorists and/or terrorist activities.
Or

Berg, having telecommunications and wiring experience used his knowledge to the benefit of either possible terrorists and/or the federal government.

Or
Berg had knowledge of terrorist activities in and around the time of his questioning and was used as an informant by the federal government at any time prior to his death.
Or

Berg knew nothing and the use of his e-mail address by terrorists and subsequent questioning was a mere coincidence.

Berg found himself in Iraq to continue his contact with agents of the federal government and/or known terrorists either with or without the knowledge of possible FBI or terrorist handlers.

At some point Berg became expendable to either the FBI (assuming they were controlling and/or monitoring his activities) or became expendable to his terrorist contacts.

He was detained by the Iraqi forces and interviewed by the FBI on separate occasions. At this point it becomes questionable whose custody he was in.

Five masked men are who appear on the video of his murder. Their identity is speculative at best. By the accent during the reading of the manifesto we know one of them to be Arab and possibly Iraqi.

The complete identities of the remaining four men remain a mystery.

Was he released at all?

Was his murder staged by Iraqi police and /or U.S. forces, the FBI, the CIA or other black ops personnel as a way of reinforcing or reminding Americans the brutality of terrorists in a time of waning public and political support for the war while at the same time being able to dispose of a reoccurring problem?

Was he released in an area known to be under the control or possibly a location of terrorists who had the knowledge that he had been interviewed/interrogated/flipped by the FBI. If this is the case, the ultimate outcome would have surely been foreseeable.

I could be just nuts and totally off track.

But I do believe that there's more to this than meets the eyes.

Who really were those five men in the video ?

What was their true motive for killing Berg?

Who was Nicholas Berg?

you forgot the fact the blood would pour profusely out of his corotid artery had it been cut while his heart was pumping...

Think back to the hockey goalie and how much blood poured out in a short period of time... his head was still very much attached... now think of how slowly berg bled in relation...

sorry, just fiugure i'd add to it the other part of the theory...

hummmm, consipiracy theory and such very interesting. im no doctor or police investigator and dont really know what someone should look like if they are getting their head removed for them but it looked pretty damn real to me. all the stuff about blood spirting sounds like people watching too much Kill Bill or Anime!!!!! HaHaHa!!!!!

First off, There is no reason that they should have chopped his head off, and when people say its all because we abused the iraqi soldiers over there thats bullshit. making some towelheads get naked and touch eachother can no way be put in the same category as cutting a mans head off like some sort of livestock. and as for you non supporting people out there. you may think that we may not belong over there but we do have thousands of soldiers over there fighting these camel-jockeys, they dont need to hear more bullshit from people in their own country. buck- up you pussies and support your troops and if not get the fuck outta here!!

Jesus Twodick! You make a good point.
Guess I'll have to watch it again.

Supporting the troops is one thing. Supporting the administration PUTTING them there is something else entirely.

And I have a better idea - since you don't seem to get the concept of freedom of speech/expression (or maybe you just don't support the concept?), which is the number one freedom here, why don't YOU "get the fuck outta here"?

WTF? Between the shitty video quality of the clip (and I have the better of the two) and the dark floor and poor lighting, a large and growing pool of blood is just visible. The clip doesn't have the resolution to show any blood that might be squirting, and you can only just make out the blood draining from the bottom of the severed head as it is held up at the end.

Gimme a frickin' break here people, you actually think this is a fake?

I never said it looked fake.

All the events leading up to his execution does make me very suspicious of the US' involvement.

Oh he was definately killed. The real question is; by who and why?

Why is he wearing the same orange jumpsuit worn by the prisoners in the pictures I've seen from Abu Ghraib prison.

The "terrorists" took him off the streets, changed his clothes and then exocuted him two weeks later?

Why was the man who beheaded him wearing a gold ring something that is strictly forbidden to Islam.

Why does the U.S. intelligence continue to infer that Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi was "most likely" responsible for this action even though news services had prior reported that he was reportedly killed?

When did "most likely" become fact and why are networks such as FOX reporting it as fact that he did the Berg killing?

Is al-Zarqawi dead? Was he killed of is he in Iraq?

How many fat Islamic fighters or terrorists have you seen? How many fat Iraqis havey you seen in ANY pictures? Other than the fat guys that killed Berg.

Why was there an Isreali stamp on his passport?
Was he there as a tourist? To be tought something? Arabic perhaps?

What had he done there? He also reportedly had an uncle (a man who had been married to his aunt) who lived in Iraq. Was this uncle sympathetic to the U.S. cause or was he a Sadaam loyalist?

What is the F.B.I. counterintelligence doing interviewing Berg three times. If he was really a no-factor wouldn't one interview suffice? If it was really nothing wouldn't he have just been released?

Why does the U.S continue to say that they did not have Berg in custody? They continue to say that it was the Iraqis that had detained and held him. THE IRAQIS DON'T HAVE ANY GOVERNMENT OR CONTROLL OF IRAQ AT ALL WHATSOEVER! The police force , the little there is, acts under the direction of the U.S. occupational forces.

They do not detain Americans , or anyone else for that matter, unless they are directed to by U.S. millitary or other government entities. U.S. millitary MP's had contact with him regardless of
who was officially responsible for his detention.

Why aren't we getting the entire true story from his family or the U.S. ?

Have they figured out what Berg was mouthing during the first 3 minutes of that video ? It appears his mouth was moving quite a bit.

Also, the time stamps don't match up when the video switches from the tripod mount to the handheld.

I am with you. I was there and it is a debacle. It wasn't as bad where I was, but scary enough when you don't know where the mortars and rockets are landing. I don't believe in this shit and I am in the military. I have a little less than 3 years, then I am out because of bullshit like this. I did my time. I don't hate our military. I respect the price of freedom, but this war is so unjust, it's not even funny. Now it's you embarrass our people, we behead yours. These damn people over there need to get out of the stoneage and learn how to live in a civil manner and quit thinking that killing or blowing yourself up means you are going to heaven. Bush is so f'in blind. He is trying to finish daddy's war. Rumsfeld, I'd like to kick his ass from here to Kingdom Come if I ever came across him. Regardless if you are Democrat or Republican, the current leadership is so f'in terrible. I support the troops, they are like brothers and sisters. But I sure as hell don't support this administration. I hope they all rot in hell.

I noticed the time thing too. I bet it was the FBI who did that so the heat would come off of the prison scandal. Look at the video. Watch the time, look how they blouse their pants (like our military), and look at their hands. They are too pale to be arab.

Was it the same type of orange jumpsuit we use? I'm not so sure. The suits appear to be a different shade of orange. Plus ours don't have any shine and appear to be of a different fabric than the one Berg seemed to be wearing. It's hard to be sure with the quality of the video. They dressed him that way for the effect.

There are still Westerners missing over there. No one knows whether they are dead or alive. Berg was Jewish and they knew that. If you want to kill a hostage and you are an Islamic terrorist, you will always pick the Jew first.

The gold jewelry thing is not really much of a valid point. Not all Islamic terrorists are practicing Muslims. If Islam was a religion of peace like the propagandists constantly claim, there would be no Islamic terrorists. That is not the case, so the wearing of jewelry is really not indicative of anything.

Zarqawi is most likely alive. He is an Al Qaeda leader. Just because other terrorists claim he may be dead does not make it so. They have many motivations for making that claim. The AP article just repeated claims of terrorists.

The CIA claims Zarqawi did the killing because his voice matches the voice from the tape. I beleive the Jihadi website that initially posted the video also claimed Zarqawi did the murder.

There are many fat Arabs and terrorists. Come on, are you serious with this stuff. The number three Al Qaeda guy that we captured last year, Khalid Sheikh Mohamed, was a fat bastard.

Berg's paternal aunt was married to an Iraqi man. She is dead and her husband I believe lives here. Has for many years. Berg visited the brother of his dead aunt's husband in Mosul. Supposedly that guy was very nervous regarding Berg's presence.

I disagree with what you said about the Iraqi police and detainment of Americans. He was an American wondering around Iraq by himself. He had no definitive specific reason for being there. Americans have been involved with Islamic terrorist organizations. The fact that he didn't belong there MADE him a suspect and very suspicious to authorities. I'm sure Iraqi police work checkpoints. I doubt the Americans can work every single one of them. There were American MP's at the facility where he was held.

He was also picked up in January, so that was not the first time he had a run in with the authorities over there.

I also don't find the fact that the FBI interviewd him three times to be very unusual.

I agree there are many questions related to the Berg story. I think it is ridiculous for people to be touting "tin foil hat wearing" theories of the US government killing him. That is ludicrous and insane.

I also noticed he seemed to be mouthing something in that video.

The bottom line........some of the circumstantial evidence and facts regarding Berg does not look favorable.

No one knows at this point. He did not deserve to be brutally murdered by those scum.

Here is an article that summarizes some of the information, but doesn't answer many of the questions.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040524/wberg.html

Berg was, at best, extremely stupid. At worst, trying to do something shady.

What kind of a fucking bonehead walks around Iraq without any protection????

But, like Madman said, he didn't deserve to have his head cut off.

I hope they figure out who the cowards in the video are, although I'm not optimistic. I've never seen anyone beheaded alive before; that was absolutely horrific.

Madma: How can you argue that the Iraqis have any authority at all in their country? They don't. Every member of the Iraqi police force is under the constant training and direction of U.S. authority. They do not and they would not hold a SINGLE AMERICAN without being directed so by the U.S. forces.

Please be reminded that there is no Iraqi authority in Iraq. None at all whatsoever. They are an occupied country under the direction of an occupational force.

I also don't understand why the Abu Ghraib prison is being used in the first place. Isn't this the natorious prison used as a tool of torture and opression by the Hussein regime? Why didn't the U.S. level it and put up tents and build a GITBAY style detainment center in it's place.

Am I the only one that sees the irony in our troops being accused of attrocities in the same prison that assisted Sadaam in developing his image as a sadistic madman?

If anything will get the world on our side , that's going to be it! :rolleyes:

The interesting thing is that while every tinfoil hat wearing crackpot with a website has run with this story and the conspiracy idea, the mainstream media continues to report the Berg story with the information spoonfed to them by the government.

I finally heard one network (FOX) drop this rediculous "Contract worker" moniker and refer to him in a newscast as a man who was attemping to find work.

There's allways been this "dig deep but not too deep" philosophy with the mainstream press. What's wrong guys? You don't want to ruin your anonymous government sources? Regardless of whether or not any one individual theory is correct, the fact remains that there is absolutely more than meets the eye with the Berg killing, yet not one news agency has taken the initiative to question the allready flimsy government position that the story presented to the public is the entire true story.

Maybee Powell, feeling the pangs of guilt from the realization that he was used as a lying puppet during his presentations to the U.N., will have a desire to restore his dignitiy and credibility and start telling some of the truth once he is no longer part of the administration.

At first, I thought it was one clean cut and he was dead, but that is in no way the case. They actually had to saw this poor guys neck with like a six inch blade, while he sat there and screamed for mercy. This guy was a communications worker for God sakes! He has nothing to do with the war, other than helping rebuild the communication infrastructure.

They already have an idea of who did the initial cutting, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a close friend of Osama bin Laden. They are unconfirmed reports of them capturing 4/5 of the people associated with the murder, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is not one of the people captured.

Of course you are. You blame America first for everything.

In two seperate trips to the middle east (I say that because he did not just concentrate his travels to Iraq) he did not secure one communicaitons job work on one tower and did not do any communications work at all whatsoever.

So what help did he perform exactly?

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is not one of the people captured.

Of course he wasn't caputred. He's been dead for weeks.

Are you just being a smart ass or what?

About al-Zarqawi ? Yes, of course. No one knows if he's dead or alive, if he did the Berg murder or if he was really behind the bombings yesterday.

About Powell.

Did you see Powell Sunday morning? He all but made an apology for lying to the U.N. and Americans about the nature of the WMD intelligence that was not only faulty but intentionally missleading.

It wouln't shock me if he died of a massive heart attack in the next 12 months.

About Berg, absoultely not. He was and remains a mystery. The reality is that government contracts are secured by companies long before they leave for Iraq. No one is wandering around a war zone looking for work because they just want to help. It's bullshit and I have seen no evidence on the contrary.

Have you read the reports about the Koran and the "anti-semetic" literature they found on his person when initialy held in Iraq.

And also. How easy would it be to pull four random Iraqi or Arab guys off the streets and pin the Berg murder on them? It's not like they are going to have a public trial with their laywers holding press conferences.

According to this link, as of May 12, 2004, the U.S. Government has a $10 million reward for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi capture.

Oh, I concede. If there is a reward offered for him it MUST mean that he's alive.

Oh , but wait.

I have a link that reports he\'s dead . Does that make it absolutely true?

Why was his body flown to Dover? Isn't that were the millitary KIA are sent? He WAS a civilian right? Shouldn't he just be flown to Pa. to his family? I wonder if his Bush hating father is going to have an indepandant autopsy preformed.

If he's a close friend of bin Laden's, why wasn't there a substantial bounty on him before now?

Too much emphasis is being placed on Iraq. Talk about diverting attention from the real issue -- bin Laden and the jackoffs that took down the WTC. Let's get a move on, already.

There is a price on his head. $10 Million.

Socal....

Have you been reading a lot of these conspiracy theory web sites or something?

You are starting to become unhinged with comments like Powell showing up dead of a heart attack.

Zarqawi is not dead. Also there are Iraqi police working checkpoints in Iraq. Berg even told other people he was picked up by Iraqi police.

If you want to look for shady dealings regarding Berg, maybe you need to start with his own father and some of his questionable connections.

No shit. I am going to send you a big ass box of tin foil for a thicker hat.

The bounty has been on him for some time. You need to pay more attention. We are fighting a lot of these guys in Iraq. We are also fighting them in Afghanistan. Just because the media is not covering it, doesn't mean that war is over. :rolleyes:

Damn Madman. I try to interject a little humor into things and I'm "unhinged?"

(Adjusting my tinfoil hat)

But since you call me out on the carpet. I'm recaling a weapons inspector that was found dead in England. I can't remember the story entirely but weren't there suspicious circumstances involved?

I don't think even if Bush gets reelected, Powell will be with them much longer. I think he's on the outs with the administration and is trying to distance himself from them as well.

I did notice Madman, that you didn't comment on Powell's Sunday conversations and apologies about the missinformation and outright lies that were told to the U.N. during the lobbying effort to gain support for the war that the world didn't want.

I have been reading a lot of the various Berg/conspiracy sites the past couple of days. There are a lot of crackpots that are looking for signs that just aren't there while on the otherhand there are a number of people that want to blindly belive the story that's being sold to us. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

He was picked up by Iraqi soldiers or police. Sure. That's great. Who do they report to? Which Iraqi authority? You still haven't conceded that there is NO autonomous Iraqi authority. Once he was picked up who was he handed over to? The border controll police didn't hold him. The occoupational force is responsible for international detainees and interrorgating and investigating security concerns. It has been proven time and time again that the Iraqis are incapable of this task at the current time.

Berg's father?

Because he's a lefty leazlout means he was responsible for his son's death? It has been claimed by him and others that his an his son's viewpoints were not the same regarding the war.

Has anyone come up with a legitimate reason why Berg was in Iraq? What work he did? How his al Queda ties in the U.S. were so quiclky dismissed?

Prob'ly.

Sorry... Didn't realize you were trying to be funny. It did have a "tin foil hat" type ring to it.

You're talking about David Kelly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2003/david_kelly_inquiry/default.stm

That's a big issue for the "tin foil hatters". He was an arms expert. Some have compared him to having a "Walter Mitty" type imagination. Who knows. There is a lot of info regarding the whole inquiry in the link above.

Kelly's death revealed corruption at the BBC.

Many Secretaries of State only stay one term. I hope Powell leaves. He has not cleaned up foggy bottom. It's still the same rat infested anti-American shithole it has been for over 40 years.

Powell can say whatever he wants. He is only trying to make himself appear better in the media. He never claimed anyone lied. He said the information was not accurate. He is flip flopping for his own benefit. Every major country in the world said the same thing about Iraq prior to the war. Powell seemed happy with the information then. Now he is in self serving mode looking to separate himself from the administration. He has something up his sleeve. Whatever his motives are, they are self serving and he could be paving the way for his own future on the political scene.

Personally, I never liked Powell very much. I've voiced my dislike of him many times.

The Coalition Provisional Authority is the top of the food chain right now (for another 5 weeks or so). There is also the Iraqi Governing Council. There are Iraqi police who operate police stations and work checkpoints. Why do you find that so hard to beleive? There were American MP's in the detention area where they brought Berg. We know that.

Of course Berg's father is not responsible for Nick's death. The conduct and things Berg's father said are very suspicious. Berg's father has some suspicious connections.

How do we know Nick Berg supported the war effort in Iraq? We don't. We only know his father rattled that off immediately upon word of his son's death. We don't know if it is true. It was very strange that these were the first words out of his father's mouth.

We know Berg came under the FBI radar two years ago with a connection to Al Qaeda. We know Berg's death ended with an Al Qaeda connection. What's missing is his activities between these two points. Could they just be coincidences? Maybe. A damn big coincidence that needs more scrutiny.

The Al Qaeda tie was dismissed at the time two years ago. I guarantee that the FBI is taking a second look at all of this now.

No. We don't know what Berg was doing wandering around Iraq. He was offered a way out of the country, but turned it down. Why would he do that?

There are many unanswered questions.

Well then there we agree. I question weather or not this will be truly investigated or will it fall by the wayside and those who question it or dig deeper will be discounted as crackpots.

I find that if it wasn't for the internet this would be another non-story and a non-issue and it would absolutely be ignored.

I also think that the crackpot conspiracy theororists are going to do a disservice if they merely grasp at flexible straws and don't make every attempt to substantiate the facts while making a genuine effort at digging below the surface where the mainstream media doesn't seem to want to go.

I don't know. I think he was just a good guy that wanted to help people out. He had done that before in Guam as we know. I heard a friend of his on the radio that said he was trying to learn the language and relate to what the people thought. That would explain his possession of the books. I don't think there is anything mysterious going on.

So Fronty, you really chalk up the Ok. al Queda connection , subsequent 2002 F.B.I. interviews his detainment in Iraq along with additional F.B.I. interviews , aalong with his untimely death at the hands of assumed terroristsas just a mere coincidence?

Let's ignore ever other theory and supposition that is being tossed arround about his involvement with U.S. or Isreali intelligence. (After all his passport indicated that he had traveled to Isreal)

Ignore the orange jumpsuit thing. Forget about the gold ring and the fat terrorists in bulletproof vests wearing white tennis shoes using two cameras. Forget about the white plastic char that you can buy at any Wallmart in Iraq.

Forget about the broken timeline or the audio that didn't match up with the video. Forget about his company that didn't exist, wasn't registered with the state or incorporated. Forget about the fact that he was wandering arround Iraq alone with no job or job offers or no contracts. Forget about the books that were found on his person when he was detaind. Forget that his family had to sue the U.S. to release him from a custody that they still deny they had him in. Forget about his father's political views.

Just tell me one thing about one idea:

If you had to put the odds of a person being questioned by the F.B.I. relative to 9/11 and then finding himself being beheaded at the hands of terrorists where would you put them?

A billion to one? Ten billion to one? A hundred billion to one?

Let me ask you. If you were interviewed by the FBI about your possible involvement with a 9/11 terrorist would you EVER find yourself in the hotbed of terrorist and counterterrorist activity that Iraq is? EVER?

You really believe that this is all just one big coincidence?

REALLY? REALLY?

"Nobody believes that crap about moons and goochers. It's baby stuff."

I dont, there are no coincidences. I think he was up to something. What? I have no idea.

It does sound like a bunch of crackpot nonsense, but I did wonder how Iraqi terrorists could get the video of the beheading up on the net in about a week.

I've got a nice computer, good DV camera, DSL connection, and good web hosting and it usually takes me a while to get video on the net.
I thought they seemed pretty tech savvy for terrorists.

Prior to the 101st crossing the berm, we had heard stories of Iraqi's beheading prisoners. We vowed that we would never surrender, at least, not completely.
What I don't understand is how this family can blame anyone but the guy himself. Noone forced him to go there. I'm also not sure that he was innocently driving around Mosul. I know a good portion of the Mosul cops - they aren't the most motivated guys in the world. They also love us. The only reason they would have detained this guy at a checkpoint is because he was driving after curfew or had a weapon with him. Both are big no no's and both can get you shot really fast, depending on who finds you. I doubt we'll ever find out what this guy was doing, but I don't buy the communications thing - especially in Mosul. We had the bulk of the infrastructure running reliably before we left. The only reason we would detain him over there is because the Iraqis caught him committing a crime. I think it shows quite a bit of professionalism on their part to have turned him over to us rather than keep him in an Iraqi jail.

I thought we covered this way back in August or so. Haji is US-slang for any Arab, just as Jerry was for Germans, and Charlie was for the VC. I haven't met any Germans named Jerry, and I highly doubt you will meet a Vietnamese named Charlie.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by socalpunX:
Why was the man who beheaded him wearing a gold ring something that is strictly forbidden to Islam.

Not sure where you get this from, but every married man I saw over there had a gold ring.


How many fat Islamic fighters or terrorists have you seen? How many fat Iraqis havey you seen in ANY pictures? Other than the fat guys that killed Berg.
I've personally secured one fat Fedayeen Sadam major: Abbas Ramadan Kasim. I have seen loads of fat Iraqis. Two or 3 were muktars - kinda like a neighborhood mayor, but more powerful. The guy that used to cook my hamburgers in the Mosul Hotel was fat.

They continue to say that it was the Iraqis that had detained and held him. THE IRAQIS DON'T HAVE ANY GOVERNMENT OR CONTROLL OF IRAQ AT ALL WHATSOEVER! The police force , the little there is, acts under the direction of the U.S. occupational forces.
Mosul is a city of about 2 million people, give or take - I think the 3rd largets city in Iraq. v They have a sizable police force - both in patrol and traffic divisions. The city of Mosul is under Iraqi control for the most part. The US has limited itself to an established base at the airport and conducts missions to identify and neutralize hostile forces. The mayor and the city council run the place, as long as there are no problems. The police may detain any criminal they see fit.

They do not detain Americans , or anyone else for that matter, unless they are directed to by U.S. millitary or other government entities. U.S. millitary MP's had contact with him regardless of
who was officially responsible for his detention.
Not true. If they have cause, you will be detained. Professional courtesy dictates that US citizens are handed over to the US, but that is all. We don't babysit the Mosul Police. We trained them, uniformed them, and gave them a few Glocks. and pickups. They have a fully functioning Police Academy with US and Iraqi instructors. Mosul is the model city for Iraq. It has crime, but not much more than you'd expect in a city that size where the average citizen has an AK-47. Imagine how New York would be if there were RPGs and artillery rounds laying around for a few months.

Sorry if this looks totaly screwed up. I can't seem to find the edit post button this morning.

Yep, I think it is all a coincidence.

1. The gold ring thing has been explained.
2. People are fat all over.
3. White shoes and plastic chairs are available worldwide. I am sure jumpsuits are as well.
4. They were wearing Soviet ammo jackets, not bulletproof vests. :rolleyes:

I have always heard people refer to Arabs as Abdul if they want a slang word.

Never heard Jerry for Germans before. Always thought it was just "kraut."

When I hear Hadji, I think of Johnny Quest...and India.

Read my post to you again again. Absent of those speculative and far reaching tin foil hat discounted theories , I was asking only about the one factor that had his government contact begin with al Queda and end with being slaughtered by supposed terrorists.

And you feel that it was merely a conicidence?

Oh sorry. Actually that is the only part that does concern me. The Dad said he sat next to Moussaoui(sp?) on a bus, while the FBI had something completely different to say. I don't put much stock in what the whacko idiot dad says though. Maybe he was a sympathizer, and thought they would welcome him, when the truth was he was just another jew american to them, or maybe they killed him because they thought he was giving info to the FBI. Either of these scenarios make him into a POS basically, and until more info comes out, if it does, I want to believe he was a good guy. As far as odds go, who knows. How many jew american guys are there that went to OU?

The only reason we would detain him over there is because the Iraqis caught him committing a crime. I think it shows quite a bit of professionalism on their part to have turned him over to us rather than keep him in an Iraqi jail.[/QUOTE]

Would a curfew violation or other crime that would have caused the Iraqi police to detain him be reason enough for the FBI to need to interview a suspect? Does the Iraqi police bring in the FBI to interview all detainees?

Why, if he was in fact detained and held by the Iraqis for a crime wasn't he charged or at least why isn't such a charge being made public?

The Defense Department is still denying that they had him in custody. They would admit only that he had been interviewed by the FBI and he had contact with U.S. MPs while in the Iraqi jail. They are contending that he was solely in the custody of Iraqis although he was supposedly released by the Iraqis after his family filed a lawsuit in U.S. court.

Quick quesiton, InfX708:

Did you see , hear of or have any contact with any Isreali intelligence in Iraq?

I am sure the name raised some eyebrows, after there being a previous investigation.

The real queston is: How many Jewish Americans had ANY contact with any of the 9/11 highjackers (why just reduce it to OU students, for that matter, let's take Jewish out of the equation and just ask how many Americans) were interviewed by the FBI re. 9/11 then then found themselves in Iraq at all.

Not to mention being in Iraq and having any contact with terrorists yet once again.

Those odds have to be astronomical.

To who ? The Iraqi city police that are busy with the day to day function of maintaning law in order in a big city? If you go with the assumption that he was picked up for breaking a local law by the Iraqi police and not anything directed by the U.S. he would have been picked up locally by the police and detained locally by the same local police.

At what point does his name ring a bell to the Iraqi police? They just know who Nick Berg is? so they pick him up for wandering arround after curfew or carrying a gun. Isn't it a local matter? Again, why wasn't he charged and why is the only story that we are hearing is that he was held for his own protection?

My point being that his aprehention and detention absolutely had to be under the direction of U.S. intelligence at one point or another because they are the only ones that would see the need for him to be interviewed by the FBI or other intelligence services.

Maybe they have a policy of informing the Americans when they detain one. It would make sense to me.

So they tell the American MPs that they have an American in custody. Why was he in custody in the first place? The Defense Dept. is maintaining that he was held for his own protection. That reeks of bullshit.

So according to your theory they Iraqis pick up this random guy for a random offense and give the MPs his name when he is detained.

The MPs put his name on whatever list and he comes up hot. So they pass his name on to the FBI who come and interview him three seperate times over the course of three weeksand determines that he is of no significance even though they have previously met with him post 9/11 re. his association with the supposed 20th highjacker.

But they determine that he his just an innocent contractor. Yet he is still held until his family sues the government in federal court and wins his release from and Iraqi jail that falls under no juristiction of U.S. courts even when the Defense Dept. maintains he ws not in U.S. custody.

Then ,again by coincidence, he finds himself abducted by al Queda terrorists and beheaded.

You REALLY buy that bullshit?

REALLY?

Would a curfew violation or other crime that would have caused the Iraqi police to detain him be reason enough for the FBI to need to interview a suspect? Does the Iraqi police bring in the FBI to interview all detainees?

Why, if he was in fact detained and held by the Iraqis for a crime wasn't he charged or at least why isn't such a charge being made public?

The Defense Department is still denying that they had him in custody. They would admit only that he had been interviewed by the FBI and he had contact with U.S. MPs while in the Iraqi jail. They are contending that he was solely in the custody of Iraqis although he was supposedly released by the Iraqis after his family filed a lawsuit in U.S. court.

Quick quesiton, InfX708:

Did you see , hear of or have any contact with any Isreali intelligence in Iraq?[/b][/QUOTE]

The report said he had an Isreali stamp in his passport. I'll check the Iraq visitors guide tonight, but I believe that having an Isreali stamp in your passport is illegal in Iraq. I do know that you were not allowed to fly into Iraq from Isreal. So, yes, it would not be inconceivable for the FBI to want to interview an American traveling into Iraq on his own arrested with an Isreali stamp in his passport. I don't think the Iraqi police "bring in the FBI" in any case. Doesn't quite work that way. More likely, the IPs told the MPs that they had a US civilian in their custody. There are several US govt agencies weorking in Iraq. Perhaps the circumstances surrounding his arrest caused the FBI to want to look into things.

I did not have contact with any member of any foreign intelligence service, that I know of, while there.

InfX708 , do you have your own theories about who you may think this guy was and what he was really doing there? Or even wish to share possible rumors or conjecture that have been thrown?

I have heard so many things. Friend of a friend type stuff.

He was working with Isreali intelligence.

He was attempting to contact al Queda on his own as American Talliban II.

He was a U.S. mole attempting to spy on terrorist activities.

Ect. Ect.

any of your own thoughts?

I see that as a completely plausible explanation. It is anymore far fetched than the others really. His Dad's connections worry me a bit though also.

I don't know what the truth is, but I am not going to label the guy a traitor unless I know some more facts.

Not too tough. They have satellite internet access there. It's not like these guys are hiding in caves. They have the popular support in several cities. Wouldn't take all that much, not to mention, stuff is pretty cheap there. It's not Afghanistan. We are dealing with an industrialized nation.

Also, just wanted to add that at least the leader isn't Iraqi. He is Jordanian.

Haven't heard any rumors. My theories are based solely on the low amount of info available. I've emailed a contact I have over there to see if he can get some info from an IP friend of mine. My theory is as stated. They guy was picked up for breaking a law. IPs let the US know. Something about him sent up a red flag - could be any number of things. We usually don't like American civilians running around without an escort simply for this reason - they end up hostages or dead and totally screw things up. We have enough to do without having to look for and/or rescue idealistic idiots who go in without any sort of plan for their protection. If this guy wanted to help, he probably should have headed north of Mosul to Irbil or Dohuk - Kurdish cities where Americans are loved. I doubt he was working for Al Queda - he's jewish. I'd like to know how his family knew he was being held. If he was allowed to use the phone, then he was most likely at a US facility, as the only way to make a call back to the US is via satelite phone. The phones at the Mosul jail are you standard type. Same goes for email. Iraqi jails basically consist of a large room with mats. Each prisoner has a wrist band with their name on it. They usually have a small - 3 man - garrison of MPs and are run by Iraqis. The MPs are there to check for US wanteds. I highly doubt this guy would be kept with local prisoners. He probably was taken to the airport for his safety. We were not to travel in groups of less than 3 vehicles because of the insurgency. Our Brigade CSM and his driver did not follow this rule and were killed the day before Thanksgiving. A lone American would be an easy target, especially in Mosul, where the US presence has drawn down. All this is assuming that he was kidnapped in Mosul.

The leader? Are you talking about al-Zarqawi? Currently that is a CIA assumption based on a supposed matching voice print. It is not fact nor has the CIA said with any absolute certainty that he was in fact the one that cut off Brg's head.

BTW he is supposed to have a fake leg and a significant limp that no one seems to notice on the tape either = tinfoil hat theory #15.

Bwahahahah! #15 is it. Well I didn't see him jogging around in circles or anything. The CIA said the believe it is him. I think they believe a little more strongly than you are portraying. They are pretty good at voice analysis you know. I want to here more about the 4 arrested in the case this week.

They want us to believe that it's him.

Find one quote from U.S. intelligence that says for absolute certainty that it was him. It's allway " intelligence indicates" or "we believe it to be" or "our intelligence indicates."

It's never "We got him. We know it's him and we're sure it was him that did it."

What about the bomb with saurin gas that was used this week. Possible eveidence of WMD? Why was the story burried? Was it an old 80's bomb that no one knew they had or was it the typical first report that turned out to be false and later retracted?

Maybee that's what happened to your four suspects arrested earlier in the week. First reports mean nothing.

Actually this is a great illustration of media bias and agenda driven reporting.

The sarin shell had 3-4 liters in it. This was underreported several days after the initial report. The elite media burried the story like it was nothing. I wonder why? :rolleyes: Maybe because it might lend a small amount of credibility for the reasons of going to war. I am not saying this is a stockpile or anything. If you want to argue the shells importance lets start a new thread.

If they had Zarqawi they would tell us. What does that have to do with it being him in the video tape. The terrorist website said it was him, and the CIA believes it is him. So until something credible comes up to show that it isn't I am assuming it probably was. I never said they came out and de facto said it was him. I was just saying they were stronger about their suspicions than you are leading on.

I think the sarin shells prove that there must be a stockpile some place. You don't set up a factory just to produce a couple of rounds. I expect more of these to come.

I do as well. I find it hilarious how the little reporting that is being done is focusing on the fact that it is an old shell. I guess they are trying to say it is insignificant because it was around before the first war or something. The fact is we went to find the shit he didn't account for. We don't care when it was made. That one round had the potential to kill thousands if shot properly.

YEP, Fox news was the only outlet I found even running the sarin shell story. I guarantee you there are more over there somewhere.....

On Monday ,I believe it was Monday, I was watching the early news broadcasts that were all reporting it in the afternoon including the major networks on their local news broadcasts.

By the evening news it was downplayed quite considerably.

It was Rummsfield himself that would not confirm that it was in fact sarin gass and the possible source. I think that is why they have backed off the story for now.

Michael Berg, Nick's father, wrote a piece today for The Guardian in the UK.

It is here. I'll let you decide on it's contents and the mind of this man.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1221515,00.html

Did he have to write something for a foreign paper?

BS. It was confirmed after that and they fucking ignored it. Plain and simple. They chose instead to trickle out some more abuse photos. They also ignored the fact that a similar shell full of mustard gas was found earlier.

No he didn't. Do you read read the things you post?

From the Guardian:

· Michael Berg is the father of Nick Berg, the US contractor beheaded on video in Iraq this month by a group believed to be linked to al-Qaida. This is an extract from his message of support for the Stop The War Coalition's demonstration, End the Torture - Bring the Troops Home Now, which will be held at 11am tomorrow at the Embankment in London

He wrote his statement to be read at a peace rally in London on Saturday.

BBC headline : Berg father backs anti-war stance

The father of Nick Berg - the US civilian beheaded in Iraq - has sent a message of support to the Stop the War Coalition.

And yes. The guy is way over the top. He knows there's more to the story and he's running arround like a crazy person.

NPR interviewed David Kay, Bush's (former) weapons inspector in Iraq, and answers most of the questions related to the shell. Basicly he says its an old shell from the 80's. The evidence is that the shell was rusted and the Sarin has deteriorated quite a bit, that's why the soldiers affected only suffered mild symptoms.
He says there probably as many as 100 more shells scattered across Iraq that will be turning up over the next 50 years.

Link to audio of interview

Fox news is the most bias piece of crap, ultra nationalist, ultra conservative Infotainment Ive seen in a long time.

From the same patriotic network that aired detailed plans of the assult of Bagdad during the war and U.S troop positions

Same patriotic network that has given oliver north, a convicted felon who facilitaed illegal TOW missle sales to the now evil Iran to fund a dirty war in Nicaragua, a show about honor in war

Not to forget the an entire program on how unemployment is GOOD,lol

thats just off the top of my head...

The war pigs of this administration LOVE that Fox news tries to scare the shit out us everyday. Because a scared citizenry are susceptible to being taken advantage of.

Go ahead and click on Fox and watch for 5 minutes. They will swear the sky will fall any minute now.
They dredge for ratings by appealing to the lowest common denominator among us by either scaring us or fevering us with such tremendous nationalism
Americans are actually FIREBOMBING mosques and peoples homes because of this psycho nationalism.

I better shave very well in the morning so I dont get run off the road.

Isnt this how the Brown Shirts of the Nazi SA operated in the 20's

Oh and yes CNN, MSNBC are covering serin
It's just that anyone with a degree in chemesty can make it, remember the subway attack in tokyo that killed 2? It was done by some psycho cult, not some high tech lab.
Aghhh

lol Fox is doing a show right now on witness hypnotizing....What crap

Just realized i revived this thread my bad

/just trolling

Geez.... That's a lot of bullshit for one post. With the outlandish leftist brainwashing that has indoctrinated you, I'm not surprised you think FOX News is biased crap. I'm also sure that you think the sources for the bullshit that you have posted here are truthful in that mixed up and convoluted mind of yours.

Do any of your sources know how to spell "serin" correctly?

It takes more than a degree in chemistry to manufacture an artillery shell containing binary agents that create sarin in flight as the shell spins on it's way to the target.

The user name Weasel seems to suit you. Are all you weasels attracted to the lowest common denonimator of anti-American bullshit and feverish internationalism?

Who cares what Berg's father's statement was supposed to be intended for. He gave them permission to run it in their paper. He could have easily given papers here in this country permission to run his crap, but he didn't.

The man is using his son's murder for his personal political beliefs. The man is a disgrace.

I notice you have stayed away from one of the obvious theories about Nick Berg's death. He may have been involved with his father's radical organizational connections.

I see a direct correlation with Michael Berg's beliefs and his son's beheading. It seems that all the liberal hogwash that spews out of his mouth gave his son a false sense of security. Nick went over there thinking, "they aint so bad, they are just trying to fight for thier beliefs. Just because I am a jew would never be reason enough for them to kill me. That would just be right wing rhetoric."

He painfully learned that they dont care about his beliefs.

Good for Kay. His opinion on the matter means little to me. He is not part of the story anymore, so anything he says is suspect.

What exactly was bullshit about that I wrote?

The felony conviction of Oliver North because of his involvment in illegally selling TOW missles to Iran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North

The firebombings and violence?

http://www.pluralism.org/news/index.php?xref=Hate+Crimes+and+Violence&sort=ASC#headline2032

The ease of the creation of sarin gas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway#What_is_sarin?

Look under "what is sarin"

Or maybe Fox News Airing U.S troop movements and positions before the siege of Bagdad?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/31/sprj.irq.rivera/

Yep its all there for you to read and call liberal brainwashing or conspiracy or whatever.

BTW: A weasel is actually a very brave little guy
These little bastards fight cobras and such

http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/walkers_m...oecilogale.html

Oliver North is a great patriot of this nation, and did things to help further the interests of this nation and took the fall for them. You are a commie scumbag. That is all.

Edited to add:
Which part of binary shell full of sarin that mixes in flight did you not understand exactly?

North's conviction was later overturned. Quit being an asshat.

Oliver North should be in prison for selling Anti Tank missles to Iran.

He is definitely no hero.

Unless of course Illegal missle sales to a terrorist sponsoring state is heroic to you.

These TOW Heavy Anti-Tank missiles can destroy just about anything.
I wonder how many missles were given to terrorist groups?

I guess we will never know.

Read your Iran-Contra History.
He delieved TOW missiles to Iran in order to get money to run a dirty war in Nicaragua.

Tom Clancy kind of stuff but this time not just a work of fiction.

Real American Hero....

No shit jackass. I know what went down. The facts remain his convictions were overturned. Keep on spewing the bullshit. Long live the Intifada! :rolleyes:

So then according to your logic Iran Contra dident happen and Oliver North did not sell TOW missles to Iran.
Ok sure....

His conviction was overturned on a legal technicality by a judge who was appointed by Reagan himself, not because he was innocent

Oliver North even admitted to be "just following orders" to sell missles to Iran.

I dont understand how anyone can support the proliferation of anti tank missles to terrorist sponser Iran and have the nerve to call me a terrorist or commie or whatever.

Its just the facts man...plain and simple.

I guess your going to ask why the facts hate America so much.

Wrong again. It was overturned by a federal judicial panel, not Bush Sr. You need to read up on your leftist propoganda to make sure it is accurate. The missiles were sold to Iran to ensure the safety of our hostages, and as a way to fund the contras. Sure it was all illegal, but many illegal things helped us win the Cold War. Ollie took the fall for it, and was correctly exonerated. If I was the President at the time I would have done the same thing.

Sorry my bad it was only a Reagan appointee that overturned his conviction on a technicality.
Not because he was innocent.

Your right.

The selling of TOW missles to a terrorist sponser was a good idea.

Especially to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua.

Your right...laws are bullshit, so is the constitution.

Im sure that the THOUSAND TOW missles he sold to Iran were never given to terrorists.

Im sure the terrorists in Iran wouldn't want Anti Tank missles anyway.

You right he was a true patriot...

The only reason the war was illegal was because the Democrat controlled congress made it so. I guess they liked the Cuban backed commies. Keep on guessing you might get it right eventually. They used the TOWs on Saddams tanks at the time BTW. So do you think winning the Cold War was a bad thing? The judges were still judges. That is in direct conflict with the 'facts' you presented.

So if a democratically elected congress determines something to be illegal it is justified to circumvent that ruling because you dissagree with it politically? Again, why bother with ballance of powers and all of those annoying principles of the constitution.

Fuck it. Fuck democracy. We'll just do whatever the hell we want if we dissagree. :rolleyes:

Is a law not a law because it differs from your agenda?

So laws are only valid when they are created from your political party?

Are you nuts? Could you live in a world like that?

1. Iran funds and arms terrorists who murder innocent people.

2. Oliver North illigally sold 1,000 TOW missles to Iran

3. Profited personally and politically.

4. Conviction overturned by Reagan appointed judge.

Oliver north wiped his ass with our flag and our constitution

How is he a patriot again? your words
Because he took the fall instead of Reagan?

Maybe a patriot to Iran, but not this nation.

Sometimes extreme things have to happen. You think the CIA never breaks any of our laws? We are talking about the Cold War here, and stopping the spread of communism. It was us or them. Sometimes the rules had to be broken. Their only mistake was getting caught IMO.

I am done with you weasal. You just keep posting the exact same thing over and over again.

Thats ok.

I dont like the facts either man its embarrasing.
But to give this rat his own show on Fox only encourages such behavior and it says a great deal about Fox News.

That was the point I was tring to make before we argued history.

Understand that I simply cannot tollerate people who wrap themselves around our flag while at the same time pissing on our laws.

According to you the only crime was getting caught.

What do you think would happen to a regular citizen was caught selling TOW missles to Iran?

He sure as hell wouldent be thought of as a patriot.

North got away because he was politcally protected.

It make my stomach turn when I see him on TV talking about honor when he raced to his office to shred files that shed light to his disgraces.

and to think that republicans wanted to impeach a sitting president for getting a BJ.
lol

Actually they wanted to impeach him for lying under oath, another 'fact' that you seem to have fucked up. You seem to be getting good at that. BTW, Ollie also has done work for your beloved CNN.

about getting a bj.....

Who really is more dangerous a president who lies about BJ's or a president who illegally sells anti tank missiles to Iran to fund another illegal war in Nicaragua?

this is off topic your grasping at straws

Yea im done too.

I cant convince a true believer, no matter how much I argue. The extreme right wing and extreme left are the same in stupidity and pigheadedness.

Anyways at least realize I dident lower myself to your level.

I dident have to call you a "commie,scumbag,jackass, or suggest your a terrorist to prove my point.

Something most conservatives resort to in this forum when presented with evidence to their contrary.

If Oliver North is your hero and laws are meaningless by all means watch Fox News and you wont be troubled with any scary new ideas or have any doubts about what you believe in.

Good luck.

What evidence? This is the ALR. The profanity and name calling makes it more fun.

You didn't say anything I didn't already know. You did however screw up the facts several times, while claiming that the facts were on your side. I never said what Clinton did was this horrible act. You assumed that. I just correctly showed that you were wrong. I thought the whole Monica thing was stupid politics. He should have just told the truth though.

I never said Ollie was my hero either. I think he is a good guy. You act as if he came up with the scheme and executed it by himself. He didn't. He was following orders. They were illegal orders, and he was convicted illegally for following them.

What are these scary new ideas you speak of? I am obviously just another idiot blinded by the light of the government machine. Why don't you enlighten me with some of your progressive thought, so I can turn away from my filthy, imperialist, zionist, capitalist pig ways, and become more sophisticated.

Just had to add that your original post is mainly bullshit. FOX never aired detailed plans of the attacks on Baghdad. Rivera drew a drawing in the dirt like a dumbass and got kicked out. Your spin would be that they should the attack plan and told the Iraqis how to beat us.

The scared citizenry bit is a farse as well. How have they tried to scare us?

Hmm - I thought a major conservative tennent was integrity? Ends justify the means? Wow....

If the rules aren't applied consistently, society will cease to function. You can't have it for illegal aliens but then ignore it when it isn't convenient either.

Yes, the high road is a bitch...

Nope, unfortunatly politics is business since business is run by humans and by our nature we are political animals.

Some more than others :p but it's still there none the less...

Concepts like government and business aren't magical entities that operate autonomously. There are humans behind them pushing the buttons and pulling the levers that make them work (think Wizard of Oz behind the curtain).

Or Homer guarding the button that says do not push???

I fell into that trap once again. He finally said something different though.

It could be argued that Reagan showed great integrity in this situation. He saved some innocent Americans, and helped defeat communism at the same time.

Just couldn't stay away INXS, eh?

Michael Moore is claiming to have a 20 minute interview with Nick Berg.

How did Berg ever get hooked up with that guy?

This whole story is getter stranger all the time.

http://www.local6.com/news/3354021/detail.html

Interesting article on Iraq from Gen. Anthony Zinni, former CentCom commander.

Retired Marine Corps Gen. Anthony Zinni delivered these remarks at the Center for Defense Information's board of directors dinner on May 12, 2004. From 1997 to 2000 Zinni was chief of the Central Command, which controls U.S. military operations in the Middle East, southwest-central Asia and northeast Africa.

link

There is some merit to what he is suggesting. But this statement is just not true. I would hardly call Somalia or Bosnia successes. As long as the UN was involved with illegal Oil for food dealings, they would be no help in Iraq either. As would the countries represented who had the most to lose, IE France, Russia, and Germany. (the rest of the world)

Nice post

It must have taken you a month to write that being that this thread died about a month ago.
look whos talking right?
Good post though.

You really do make a good point.

Where are the moderate muslims? They have failed their own people. Like the regular Germans in Nazi Germany. They knew what was happening yet they said nothing.
Making them just as culpable

Pretty soon theres not going to be any moderate Americans anymore either.

Hate spreads like wildfire

Haha, he was a lil' slow with that, but what the hell, no worries. What I can't stand is those people who sit there and bitch and moan about people dying in the war!

THE SOLDIERS KNOW THEY ARE PUTTING THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE WHEN THEY ENLIST!

"Omg omg, we have so many soldiers dying"

Damn, you people wanna use them to get your points across, why don't you fuckin' let them have an honorable death and let their families be proud of their accomplishments.

The bottom line is that we went to war and it's too late to turn back. So don't go bitchin' about pullin' out otherwise everything we've done thus far is all in vain.

Hell half of you people don't even really know what goes on with the administration. Hell, for all you know EVERY administration has lied to the public. When you get a job workin' with senators and up in the white house or something then you can come bitch about the Bush administration.

Well, first thing is first. It's July 5th, probably a pretty good ways after even the second American beheading.

There are a few different ways I look at this. First off, in no way, do I condone what they are doing, they as in the Iraqis. But, some of you need to understand that not ALL the Iraqis are to blame. Infact, most of them want America there. Most of them wanted Hussein gone, now he is.

But, in their defense, this is nothing new to their country. This only became a big deal after an AMERICAN was beheaded. This has been going on in their country for years now and no one said a word til now. The American media just throws these kinds out of proportion and this is how these things get started. If the American media hadn't kept going on about the Iraqis being tortured, I seriously doubt anything like the beheadings would've happened.

Basically, my point is that to America this is horrible, which it is, this is not the way someone should live life. But, to the Iraqis, this is their way of life. The Iraqis did go overboard, but you can't blame the whole country for something that five idiots did.

It isn't neccessarily Iraqis that did the be-headings. It basically is unlikely that it is Iraqis. Just like the so called "insurgents." They aren't Iraqis...these are terrorists from Syria, Iran, Afghanistan ect..

Funny thing though.....You didn't hear about these insurgents under Sadaams rule. He beat the shit out of these insurgents, so they were al scared to come forward. Now that Sadaam's out of power, who will put them down?!?

Actually if you read the news they say most of the insurgents have been entering the country since the fall of Saddam. Most terrorist leaders, OBL included, have been urging members from all over the Mid-East to enter the country and cause trouble. The Iraqis probably aren't behind the beheadings; although the immigrant terrorists are probably doing some serious recruiting now. Especially since anti-american sentiment has been rising so much after the Prison debacle.

News
News
News
News

Yeah, but still...Sadaam's brutal tactics of discipline did help curb these insurgents didn't they? Don't get me wrong. I think it's great we went in and got him, but couldn't we start using those brutal tactics just to shut them down?!?

That's a great idea! Let's rape small children in front of their parent's to teach them a lesson! :rolleyes:

No jackass.....I'm talking about killing the people that kill innocent people.....bring back Capitol Punishment to what it was meant to be....

We already do when given the chance.

Yeah, but not all people get killed using capitol punishment.......many of them just get life in prison....

What does that have to do with Iraq? You said we should use the same tactics Saddam did to put down the insurgency. That would include things like gassing the population of Fallujah, and slaughtering innocents indescriminately.

We are killing and capturing these people, one by one. You can't call these people insurgents though. They are not Iraqis, so they could care less how the Iraqis are treated. The Iraqis need to stand up to them, and they are now. There is some Iraqi group that is telling Al Sahdr to cut the shit, or they will destroy him. That's what we need!

Speaking of capitol punishment, doesn't anyone else find it ironic that we've killed 10,000 Iraqi civilians in order to take out a dictator because he gassed 5,000 Kurds?

It depends on what your definition of civilian is...

You have never been in the service, have you? The definition of civilian is much different there, especially when they are trying to kill you.

For you WilMac...
http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=chappelle

Showtime:
These People have something they want to say to you.

These people have my reply...

Here's the most irritating thing to me. We aren't doing squat over there anymore. Maybe a few special ops guys and intel types, but the majority of the force is simply trying to stay alive. The last 3 months I was there, the bulk of my time was spent guarding our quarters, walking around looking for IEDs - funny how that has become a common term nowadays - and dodging incoming mortars. We conducted maybe 12 raids, 4 "cordon and knocks", and a few more presence patrols. We captured 6 wanted bad guys. Because of the rules, the bad guys can shoot at us at will with no threat of retaliation. The US used to be known for giving back twice what it received. The Air Force still can. If someone shoots at a plane, they can drop a bomb on him. We weren't even allowed to respond in kind. An RPG is an anti-tank weapon. Did we ever fire one of our anti-tank rockets back at an attacker? No, sorry, you can only shoot a machinegun and hope you wound someone. Did we ever fire mortars back at the location from which they were fired (called counter-battery fire). We just had to suck it up, and tend to the wounded. What ever happened to the notion of with us or against us? You can guarantee that even if we just fired smoke rounds onto the mortar launch sites, the people in those neighborhoods would think twice about letting Ahmed and Hassan fire mortars at the Ameriki. I can guarantee if an AT-4 blows up outside your back door, after coming through your wall, you won't let the boys come around with their RPGs anymore. America has become soft. We are now a nation of pussies. We want to get rid of the bad guys, but not hurt anyone around them. We would rather lose 18 of our soldiers in a single night than unintentionally kill one family that decides to ignore the guys setting up a tube outside their house. What happened to the America that existed in the 40's? We used to call our enemy names because we didn't like them. Now, we don't want to offend them. Do people actually think that there's weren't Germans in the US army in 1944? Those same men were calling the soldiers of the Third Reich krauts and Jerrys. It's time to have a bowel movement or exit the toilet. America needs to decide whether they want another Vietnam or another Operation Overlord (That's the 1944 D-Day in Normandy to some of you). Right now, it's looking like Vietnam. We have no clear cut objectives and no clear exit strategy. Is this how we want to start the 21st Century? We can't beat the insurgency - minus forced sterilization and genocide. As long as we are in Iraq, there will be fundamentalists that will hate us for whatever reason - we killed great-grandpa, we walked too close to the mosque, we did somethign with our left hand, we pointed a rifle at mom, we stopped a car, we're breathing their air, etc. A lot of Iraqis would make great professional Welfare recipients. It's time for us to stop babying them and leave, or get busy with the eradication of the bad guys, even if it means taking a few innocents with them.

Very good post InfX708.

Now you should send that to your Congressman, the President, and John Kerry.

Stone

Holy Fucking Shit! you hit the nail on the head!

Fuckin' A, man
time for a little Roddy Piper "I have come here to kick some ass and chew bubblegum...and I'm all out of bubblegum"

I think the whole history of the Middle East is fairly simple. Here's a metaphor...

The middle east is like a baby, and the world is a group of mature adults. The middle east has something that the world wants, so the world gives the middle east money in exchange. But since the middle east doesn't have an established power, it has many powers fighting over that specific income from the world. The whole situation is like giving a teenager a couple of million dollars. What do you think he will do? Invest in books? A library? Or a sports car? Of course this is coming from the mind of a teenager that lives in America, I haven't seen violence in my life, and I have little to no need of defense from strangers that walk in the street. But this comes to show that I (a immature adult) has no thought of the future, and neither does the middle east. The middle east really didn't have to work for the money that It got, so It didn't have the maturity to know where to spend that money. My resolution is simple, I believe that the UN should take over all the oil fields of the middle east, and claim them as the worlds oil fields. The only people profiting from this would be the companies drilling the oil. This way, the middle east won't get enough money to fuel it's adolesent ideas, in turn they won't get enough money to hurt us. The only way then that the middle east could possibly rise to be heard is to actually produce a positive effect in the world via research, or advancments in society.

I know that what I said makes little sense, as to my writing gets confused in a big garble of ideas. And I know that I'm a little late on the whole subject (about a month) but I felt that I might as well vote my opinion, because it helps me understand what I truly believe in... Kerry sucks...

Wilmac...5,000 Kurds??? where do you get this info? you need to read more on the subject as Saddam's government is responsible for hundreds of thousands more.
web page

"Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. o The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror."

Maybe he ment 5000 at a time??