Sept. 11, 2001 ... Two years later...

What does everyone think regarding what has been done and what has not been done in the two years following the worst attack ever committed on U.S. soil?

An attack that was perpetrated by Middle Eastern Muslim terrorists against our country. An attack that not only targeted our military and leadership, but also primarily targeted our civilian population and symbols of our country's engineering and financial prowess.

It will be a sad day for me. Not only because of the magnitude of the attacks, but also on a personal level. I knew some of the people who were murdered that day. A former bartender (fireman), two guys from my neighborhood (firemen), a grammar school friend (fireman), and at least a dozen former colleagues from working as a consultant for Marsh & McLennan (many happy times socializing and many beers and many laughs). Even more people from that company who were computer users I knew on a passing level. Marsh lost over 250 people that day.

I didn't personally know any of the police lost that day.

I can still vividly remember the shock of seeing photos of the faces of some people I would see on an almost daily basis riding the express bus into Manhattan published in my local newspaper.

I loved The World Trade Center and the whole complex. I loved some of those people like they were my own brothers and sisters.

I'm not happy with a lot that has transpired since 9-11. I'm especially not happy with the way a lot has not changed for the better since 9-11.

I'm still just as angry about the whole thing as I was on Sept. 12......

Let's see...

Terrorists attack the USA.
USA increases security for about a year.
USA then decreases security and kicks back, then attacks a country known to have terrorist ties.

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again tomorrow.

The world will never be the same, So many things changed tduring those 40 minutes on Sept 11.

I too think it will happen again in some way shape or form.....

Neither would I. But not for the reason you mentioned.

I'd say I was pretty happy with the decision to pursue terrorists seriously after 9/11.

While I support the troops, I can't help but question the logic that placed them in Iraq. This may be the biggest blunder in US history, and it sets a bad precident (America as an aggressor).

From a post 9/11 point of view, it seems that our homeland security, our fire departments, our police departments, and related support services (including the power grid) would have been much better served if the $87 billion (and previous expenditures) was spent here at home instead of Iraq.

I hope this 9/11 is uneventful, and that the current administration will again ponder the lessons learned on that day.

As for Iraq, since we're there, I hope the vast majority of Iraqi people appreciate the efforts of our troops. If a successful, peaceful nation could emerge there, all might be worth while.

No a chance in hell that will ever happen, The country is made up of fractions, clans, tribes and Muslim fanatics, Like Afghanistan they will never conform to living in peace and accepting fundamental differences between race,religion etc. The only thing the western world can be happy about is that they do not have the ability to organise and carry out their true feelings on a mass scale.

Those who have the guns has the power....

Come on pal... in no way are we an aggressor. You watch too much CNN or Peter Jennings. Iraq was one of the best things we have done. My fear is that it will be fucked up by the current administration buckling under the pressure from our largely anti-American press and vocal appeasement crowd.

Too many years of appeasement and doing nothing about international terrorism led to 9/11 .... along with our insanely ridiculous visa programs, etc.

The mistake we made with Iraq was we didn't realize how fucked up the internal structure of the country was prior to the war. You can blame a lot of that on the UN. They were supposed to make sure all the money Saddam received over all those years of sanctions went to the people of Iraq in the form of food and infrastructure. It didn't and the UN never said a damn thing nor did a damn thing. Another mistake was not sending in enough troops.

Of course the other usual mistake we make is not clamping down on the other terrorist supporting nations like Iran and Syria. You can put much of the blame for this squarely at the feet of the U.S. State Deptartment. (The State Dept. also has a degree of culpability in the attacks of 9/11)

As far as domestic security. If we did the right things it would cost us almost nothing. The Dept. of Homeland Security is a joke. Pure smoke and mirrors. Why would you want to give them more money? We now have a state like California that will be giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens. In order to get these licenses these illegal alien criminals need a taxpayer ID number from the federal government. The feds give out these numbers to illegals who are here in violation of Federal Law. (WTF is this?... the feds encourage this shit in violation against their own laws...) Where the hell is The Department of Homeland Security on this issue? Where the fuck is Tom Ridge? What good are they if they don't enforce their own laws and actually aid and abet terrorists and criminals entering this country? Not much Homeland Security going on as far as I can see. The primary responsibility of the federal government is national security. What good are they if they don't fulfill their responsibilities and even enforce their own laws?

The 87 billion should go directly to the military. More troops, more weapons.

9/11 happened because we were asleep at the wheel. We obviously still are on the domestic front.

Iraq will turn out alright, but we must be much tougher with those countries helping the terrorist effort in Iraq. We also must be much tougher with the Iraqi's themselves. They don't feel very secure with the terrorist element walking amongst them. Iraq is not Germany after WWII. Stabilizing an Islamic country is no easy task. It doesn't take too many fingers to count the number of stable Islamic countries in the world (Maybe one).

With our current State Dept. and tendancy towards appeasement.... also let's not forget this buckling under pressure to allow a bigger UN presence. The UN means nothing but more appeasemnt, more terrorism, more anti-Americanism. A big mistake. I wonder how it will turn out. With UN involvement.... it will never turn out to anything but a disaster.

Tomorrow is also my wife's birthday and she requested not to be treated special. I am not saddened that 9/11 happened two years ago. I am saddened EVERYTIME I think about it, not just every anniversary.

This is what I did since then...I studied to be an EMT and I applied to DMAT (Disaster Medical Assistance Team) which is under the Department of Homeland Security.

Maybe there's very little I can do to help improve homeland security, but I'm pretty sure I have a lot to offer when the next disaster strikes.

i too wish that the evil act on 9/11 had never happened. let's not forget the pennsylvania and pentagon deaths - the destruction and innocent deaths do not stop in new york.

it is past time to be mad. it is time for creative thought, debate, and forgiveness. it is time to find another solution, one beyond killing another human being because that is easier than talking, forgiving, and changing root cause of hate.

would our friends and family that died on 9/11 want the resulting bloodshed on their souls? i know mine would not. hate is easy, and it is time to stop taking the easy way.

ny madman, where do you come up with this, rush limbaugh?

bush's post-invasion policy for afghanistan & iraq shows his myopia. he was way quick in stomping his foot and rooting out his evil and way toooooo slow in changing the environment that caused the evil in the first place. afghanistan - kick butt and secure kabul, but let everything else go to pot. iraq - kick butt and secure the oil fields, but let everything else go to pot.

teddy said to speak softly and carry a big stick. george seems to have forgotten how to speak. to the rest of the world he's no more than the bully-president.

Evil act.... You're damn right it was. It was an evil terrorist act and the world is loaded with both evil and terrorists.

No one has forgotten the Pentagon or PA. The only thing that may have been forgotten probably requires a little reflection on your part.

Listen guy... is there something wrong with you? WTF are you talking about?... Creative thought... Forgiveness. FORGIVE WHAT?

I don't know how many of your friends and family were murdered that day. Only you can say what they may have have felt.

Plus you got some fucking nerve implying that any retaliatory strikes against "said" evil terrorists rest upon the souls of totally innocent victims. You are a sick fuck and thinking like yours only led to 9/11 occurring in the first place.

Everyone I know who died would have thought thinking like yours was nothing but the ramblings of a fool.

Let's hear your reasons for the environment that caused this "evil" in the first place.....

Take your time. No reason to be "way quick" about it. Think about your response. I wouldn't want some typical myopic "hate Bush" answer.

I will never forgive or forget. We should be applying much more pressure to Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and even Pakistan, (which is where Bin Laden is rumored to be.)

We need more troops in Iraq, then we need a resumption of major combat operations. Enough of this waiting to let them shoot at our guys non-sense. Democracy needs to be put on hold, Marshal law needs to be established and all these Bathists, foreign terrorists need to be eliminated. Everyone seems to know that but the the State Department.

The State Department needs to be gutted and replaced with men and women of fortitude, not the liberal, appeasing, fearfull of what the world "thinks" undermining dim wits it seems to be filled with now.

Lastly, the US Government need to take their hands off the shoulders of Israel and let that dog hunt once and for all. Terrorist groups like Hamas, Al-Queda, etc do not want peace. Israel has the fortitude to get the job done and we should just let them get it done. There was never any roadmap because the Palestinians never had any intention of going down that road. They want to drive the jews into the sea, thats it.
The only thing these people respect is power and strength. They attacked us on 9/11 because they saw we never did anything after they had attacked us before; 1993 WTC, USS Cole, Somalia, etc etc etc. It became sort of a doctrine for terrorists in general, if you bloody our nose we will run home like babies. Well, I like the fact that we are starting to get it right and taking it to them. War of aggression my ass.

Here are my two new campaign slogans for the democratic party.

Vote Democrat:Making the World safer for terrorists.

If you like being taxed out the wazoo, If you like being overun by Illegal immigrants, if you like living in fear of terrorist attacks: Vote Democrat.

Well...all I can tell you is that if it does happen again, it will not be here in downtown NYC today. Security down here is locked up tighter than a drum. I work in the building across the street from the sight and I needed to show id 7 times to get anywhere near the building.....Damn tourists!

I will never forget what those cowardly bastards did to us here on our turf and our sites overseas. We need to quit the political correctness of war and finish the job.
I don't care how many sissy-mary liberals we have to hurt to get the job done either. I don't care how many innocent bystanders get killed in the process. The job needs to be done. It needs to be done by dirty little men no one wants to talk about.
Yes, we need to clean up Saudi Arabia first and foremost. Then Syria and Pakistan.

good morning ny madman. go read the new testament, go read the koran. find an alternate to drumming up hate and more death.

i don't hate bush, i just do not trust him.
- has he taken care of osoma? NO
- has he taken care of al queida? NO
- has he made us safer? NO
- has he diverted troups away from the hunt for osoma and al queida? YES
- has he diverted money and resources away from the hunt for osoma and al queida? YES
- has he destroyed a country with no ties to 9/11? YES
- has he taken care of his oil friends? YES
- has he expanded the ability to spy on americans? YES
- has he made us paranoid? YES
- has he incited other free countries to mistruct the usa? YES

it is our job to question our leaders. it is our job to resist intrusions into our personal liberties. and it is our job to not let ourselves slip into the slime of hate used by others.

i refuse to perpuate the circle of hate and death.

- has he taken care of osoma? NO
- has he taken care of al queida? 3/4 of the way there
- has he made us safer? YES
- has he diverted troups away from the hunt for osoma and al queida? NO, all the same hunt.
- has he diverted money and resources away from the hunt for osoma and al queida? NO, all the same hunt.
- has he destroyed a country with no ties to 9/11? NO
- has he taken care of his oil friends? HOW?
- has he expanded the ability to spy on americans? YES, as the ACLU and all liberal pussies are trying to remove the abilty to spy on terrorists.
- has he made us paranoid? NO
- has he incited other free countries to mistruct the usa? WHO CARES.

I am glad you refuse to perpetuate the circle of hate and death. So why you are hugging your tree and turning the other cheek, the terrorists will still be perpetuating that circle without you.

Liberals will never understand that the only thing these evil people understand is a giant proverbial foot up thier ass. They are like the bully on the playground who gets what they want out of fear of violence to get all the kids lunch money. They will keep doing it until they take on someone tougher who beats em down. (FYI, we are not the bully)

There ya go!!! Just like I said last year, what's so significant about the fact that the earth has completed yet another trip around the sun since then? Nothing. Every day since 9/11/01 is no more or less significant.

Business as usual today,
Brent

Wow, you sound just like a terrorist.

nice to know that on a day like today we can still be an ass to each other when two years ago today we would ALL fight side by side to get the evil people that did this to us.

Kill'em all, let God sort'em out?

We got the people who did this, they all died when the planes they hijacked hit their targets.

Since those 3000+ people died on 9/11/2001, 40,000 Americans have been murdered in America by Americans.
Why not focus on that problem (or the thousands of other problems plaguing this country) instead of driving around other countries, spending billions of dollars, looking for people to blame for our own lack of security ?

I don't think you truly can be rid of terrorists all together. You can squish the ones that are in power today, but you will never kill the thought process that leads up to the actions. So what if you kill Bin Laden? You don't think there's a few hundred young men that are chomping at the bit to fill his shoes?

I think the answer lies in tighter security within each country. Secure our borders (including those on the ocean), do background checks on everyone who buys a plane ticket -- whatever it takes. I'll subject myself to all the metal detectors and searches you've got if it means a safer flight or workday. I'll leave my fucking pocket knife at home. I'll take my ass to the airport four hours in advance if that's what it takes.

Killing Al Qaeda members won't fix the problem.

Originally posted by xoc:
We got the people who did this, they all died when the planes they hijacked hit their targets.

i'm not going to say this or that about this or that BUT i will say about this statement is 'you're wrong". they were the bodies not the brains behind 9/11.

i'm the kind of person that just because someone said it or looked it up on the web does not mean it's true. i truly hope we all can and will remain safe, each and everyone of us.

greg

I am no longer able to remain silent regarding all the talk about 9/11, terrorists, the USA, etc...

In my opinion, the "problem" is so much bigger than what we can discuss and solve in this forum. It goes back hundreds, if not thousands of years. The cycle of hatred and intolerance of people different from us has been around since the beginning of time.

There are so many reasons and theories as to what and how 9/11 happened: the USA was "asleep at the wheel", Osama bin Laden did it, the Israelis did it, it was God's wrath on the USA for embracing homosexuality and other immoralities, etc, etc, etc...

I personally believe that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one of the main factors which resulted in 9/11. That entire situation has gotten out of hand. The Jews, backed by the USA, are fighting for a homeland and a right to exist in a land that the Muslims had occupied for hundreds of years. This land, and particularly the city of Jerusalem has religious significance, not only to Jews and Muslims, but Christians as well. If that is not a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is!

Until we are able to find a solution in the Middle East, I think we are in for more attacks. And remember: one man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter".

Yes, yes I do. It is the only way to win a war. Our citizens did it from the Revolutionary War on. The Boston Tea Party was the first act of US terrorism. It is the greatest weapon on Earth when used properly.

Dude you gotta help me here. How does that tie into Christian beliefs. Seriously I am trying to understand. You seem to be the most certain of your views. I know the old testament talks about an eye for and eye but I thought that Jesus taught peace and understanding.

OH man I do not want to hijack this thread at all. I spent way to much time taking people out of the Murrah bldg. so I understand the loss that people of NY are feeling. I hope with all hope that this shit never happens again.

I am good with the definition of terrorism. Hell the US has done it during several wars My Uncle was one of Carlson's Raiders in WWII. For those who don't know about this Marine Unit it was where the term Gung Ho came from. Never a tougher unit before or since. My mother was on the reciving end of bombings in Berlin in WWII.

My intrest was in the teachings of the bible. I had never heard it explained that way. Interesting point of view. Thank you.

I agree with “lover” who was provoked into a 1st post (“welcome” by the way). I think the US’s support for Israeli interests is the real fuel behind the 9/11 attacks. We need to be more even handed, neither party (Israeli/Palestinians) is particularly deserving of support. We need to resolve this issue before the fuel will disappear. (Granted…this is next to impossible at this point.)

Regarding events since 9/11, I was happy to see Bush propose the “road map” and to see Bush actively engaged with BOTH the Israelis and Palestinians (appeared reasonably evenhanded there for a while). This is a step in the right direction (although it is quickly disintegrating).

In defense of my naïve hope that Iraq will somehow be transformed into a peaceful democratic nation (which seems to be the new motivation for war since claims of WMD have gone unsubstantiated), I just WANT to believe that our soldiers have died for something. It’s infuriating the think that they have died or suffered in a war in which nothing has really been accomplished (which is almost certainly the case).

Recap of post 9/11 occurrences and benefit to national security:
(1)work with Israel/ Palestinians = GOOD, it’s a step
(2)war in Afghanistan, pursuit of terrorists = GOOD
(3)beefed up security at home = GOOD idea, insufficiently funded
(4)war with Iraq = BAD, unjustified, very expensive, nearly fruitless, and quite arrogant

And how many British citizens or soldiers were killed in this act of "US terrorism"? None. No one was killed, no innocent bystanders were murdered. The Boston Tea Party was an act of civil disobedience and has been described as an act of political theater. That's a long way of from the killing of the innocent.

In its shortest easiest maybe not precise way to put things: I don't want to see my military killed day in and day out month after month, year after year. Hit the enemy first with a huge punch to the face using whatever methods at hand. You light up the market place with bombs and send folks into heavily populated places and bring the fight to them. You take out a market place, drop leaflets claiming if they overthrow the current government, we will stop. If they don't, do it again and again. They will cease and assist.

And there may not have been any casualties at the Tea Party, but I think when the Brits came to fight like they did for ages, and then had folks fighting unconventionally and raiding the camps, this was terrorism in its finest.

The Atomic Bomb is a classic definition of terrorism. We made our point by inflicting great terror upon those people and they gave up.

Knowing Leland like i do, i am shocked to see that he has these anti-American feelings on this of all days.

First of all today should be a day to reflect on the tragedy that occurred two years ago today. It affected all of us who call America home. We were attacked by cowards using civilians and civilian planes to attack civilians. We did not cause this. There is no policy foreign or domestic that America has taken to warrant such an attack.

It is easy to sit in a cushy office and spew forth opinions of self rightousness and a live and let live mentality. It is easy because you are spoiled, all of you, including me. You have no indication, other than what you readily believe from a media simply existing to sell, what basic humanity boils down to.

If any of you think for one single breath that if you do not protect everything you have it will be taken from you, you need to check in to the mental ward.

It is that simple. People are not to be trusted by other people. We have built a great, wealthy and powerful nation based on freedoms. Other people want to take that from us. They want to steal it. It is that simple.

They want your big house Leland, they want your cushy job, they want your pool, they want your dogs. I so very much wish that was not REALITY, but it is. I wish that there were no countries, no religions. Just like John Lennon said in "Imagine" But the lyric is entitled that for a reason. It is not the truth. The truth is that people are flawed and you must be able to physically protect yourself at any time, or be a victim. It cannot happen that we all band together in this world. It is a fact. A sad fact, but a fact nontheless.

This thread was about the anniversary of the most horrific crime ever to happen to us, our country, our people, our way of life. The life you enjoy so very much.

And to belittle it by blaming a politician who has done nothing but try to protect you from further atrocites, instead of showing the reverence for this date that you should be showing disgusts me.

I for one have remembered what happened two years ago all day today. I remember that a few cowards tried to take my life from me. I remember those brave Americans who died, and the brave Americans who live on and refused to let the American spirit die.

I applaud those Americans, and today I especially remember who I am, not who I cannot be, simply because we are human.

Marshall

As Howard Stern said this morning, "Every Sept. 11 we should nuke a Middle Eastern country into oblivion"..... Teach them a lesson they won't soon forget I say.

There is no dealing with these religious nuts. We should strike hard and strike fast and put the fear of Allah into them. Bomb them to hell. KILL THEM. It is much too difficult to sort out the good from the bad. Too bad.

Make the "so-called" good Muslims, which according to them far out number the terrorists, rise up and defeat the radical Muslims. Hmmmm....NOT. Will never happen. Muslims don't turn in other Muslims, right?

I agree with MBFlyerfan, Marshall Law should be declared in Iraq. The military should do what it it trained to do - GO ON THE OFFENSIVE! None of this mamby-pamby bullshit of being a police force. That is not their job. They are trained killers; go kill.

Don't get me started on the Palestinians and Israeli's.......

Stone

Please clarify this comment. I assume that you are labeling the USA of terrorism because of its use of the Atomic Bomb on the citizens of Japan during WWII?

I recall from my high school history class many years ago that the decision to drop the Bomb was not an easy one for President Truman. Since December 7, 1941 when Japan FIRST attacked the US at Pearl Harbour, to the Battles of Midway, Guadalcanal, etc...and finally to Saipan, the USA realized that Japan was not going to surrender easily. Many US servicemen were killed in suicide attacks by "Kamakazis", demonstrating the determination and desperation of both military and civilian Japanese. Even as the US closed in on the Japanese mainland, Emperor Hirohito would not surrender. It was estimated that over 1,000,000 US soldiers would be killed in an invasion of Japan. The number of Japanese civilians who would fight to the death or simply commit suicide rather than surrender would be many times the US casualty figure. Given this information and the atomic bomb option available to President Truman, it was an obvious decision.

During that war, it was obvious who the enemy was. In today's war, the enemy hides in the shadows. Throw in religious fanatics, racial tension, political correctness, a divided America and combine it with hatred and intolerance and you have the makings of a very nasty situation.

A war has been declared on America, possibly many years before 9/11, by a shadowy enemy who hates its wealth, its freedoms and everything it stands for. Unless America fights that enemy using the new rules of war, the "American Empire" will lose its power and prestige like the British Empire did at the close of colonialism.

So do we just ignore the Geneva Convention?

That is, go after the terrorists, screw the innocent bystanders...destroy the country completely - not just the government and military, but also their infrastructure?

That would make Bush and his advisors war criminals (unless of course, we say screw Geneva).

Now what would we have? One country, Israel, on our side.

Forced isolationism. Yeah, that sounds good. :rolleyes:

Thanks for logging in and letting us know exactly what you are all about in your first post.

It is obvious that you have no connection with reality whatsoever.

What mosque do you attend up there in Vancouver?

Seeing that Muslims are the most recent inhabitants of the Holy Land (hundreds of years as you claim, compared to thousands of years for the Jews).... does that mean in a few years Europe and even North America will be claimed by Muslims? Should our women get fitted for burquas now?

You love using words like "hatred" and "intolerance". The only real hatred and intolerance in today's world lies in Islam, Islamic nations and Muslim terrorists.

But as part of the PC diversity crowd I am sure you think it is hateful and intolerant to even mention these things. Regardless of the fact that it is the hard truth.

The answer is a definite YES.

The Geneva Convention only applies to conflicts amongst the signatories and nation states with professional armies. It does not apply to fighting terrorists.

Besides, we are the only nation who ever adhered to any principles agreed upon in any of the Geneva Conventions. If the whole world uses these agreements like toilet paper, why shouldn't we? They are worthless and outdated.

I noticed all the hate America liberals and terrorist sympathizers tried to use the Geneva Convention argument relating to the terrorists held prisoner in Gitmo. Are you a member of that crowd Moby?

As I was putting up an American flag this morning a woman walking by stopped and thanked me for putting it up. She said "seems a lot of people have forgotten already". After some thought I tend to agree. Has it been brushed aside by many?
To my 343 brothers who gave all....you are not forgotten.

Of course I'm not. And I agree, that with the terrorists organizations, we have to get down and dirty.

We aren't the only ones who have adhered to Geneva. Some signatories that I imagine haven't violated it: US, UK, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Iceland, Germany, France, Denmark, Australia, Austria, Canada, etc. And I'd bet most haven't - Geneva only applies to war-related things - how many of the countries have been involved in wars since 1949?

Regardless. Some people say we should just go in and completely obliterate Iraq. Should we say fuck the moral high ground? I was speaking specifically of Iraq with regards to Geneva.

I remember reading a story once about an American company that had operations in Central America. They were having problems with people getting kidnapped and held for ransom. Finally they hired some mercinaries. The next time the kidnappers went to pick up a payment, there was no payment. Instead, they were given a list of them and their families, their schedules and what they did every day. The kidnapping stopped. Obviously this is a much smaller scale, but it's one step to getting all the terrorists - infiltrate, find them, and (unlike the company) either capture them or eliminate them.

As far as Gauntanamo, I haven't see any reason to bitch about how the prisoners there have been treated or whatever. There is only one thing in the Geneva Convention that I can see might be brought up - POW's must be allowed to notify next of kin. But, like you said - these aren't professional military members. (However, the fourth convention gives civilians the same rights as POW's - meaning technically, they should be able to notify next of kin).

Yeah it has been forgotten by many people. There is also a certain element of people who never gave a shit in the first place anyway.

The majority of Americans have not forgotten and never will. It is unfortunate that the minority of people who never cared are a very vocal bunch.

Plus the media is a huge problem. They try their best to get Americans to forget about it. It doesn't fit with their beliefs and the garbage they push out on a daily basis. How many times has a major media outlet shown the videos of the planes crashing into the buildings over the last two years? Did you even see it today?

It's been two years and has Hollywood even made a major motion picture about it with the 9/11 hijackers as characters in a film? No. That would mean the public would see the terrorists for who they are and where they came from. It would have to show their nature and character. They don't want to do that. It doesn't jibe with the bullshit they try to push on the public. Can't do that in a PC world. Many movies made since the mid 90's have CIA or other American government agents as the bad guy. Ever wonder about that?

Interesting though that they lined up within weeks to give some female soldier who didn't do shit (but get captured) a million dollars to tell a politically correct phoney story filled with lies to push their bullshit on the public.

That woman who stopped to thank you was right. You're a good man for flying the flag today. Fly it everyday. It was sad that even here in NY, I didn't see many people displaying the flag in front of their homes today. Two years ago every single home had one.

Should we fuck the moral high ground? I don't know. I wasn't aware there was a lot of morals left in this country. Especially amongst those that constantly criticize the war on terror. I guess morals only count when the treatment of those that would kill us in a heartbeat comes into question.

Regarding these guys who kidnap businessmen in South America.... You can't compare them to the Middle Eastern terrorist organizations. Is that what you are doing....equating groups of paramilitary thugs who kidnap for ransom to Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?

The guys in Gitmo are not POW's.

Personally, I think the scum we have in Gitmo should have been killed in the field. They should never have been brought to a U.S. base in North America... or anywhere else. Upon release they will just go back to terrorist business as usual.

You're not too much of an apologist for America's enemies are you?

That was my whole point - neither do I know.

Quote:

I wasn't aware there was a lot of morals left in this country. Especially amongst those that constantly criticize the war on terror. I guess morals only count when the treatment of those that would kill us in a heartbeat comes into question.

But if morals are lacking here, and Bush is going to bring them back...?

Quote:

Regarding these guys who kidnap businessmen in South America.... You can't compare them to the Middle Eastern terrorist organizations. Is that what you are doing....equating groups of paramilitary thugs who kidnap for ransom to Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?

No, I was just giving an example of how one entity fought back.

Quote:

The guys in Gitmo are not POW's.

So are they civilians?

Quote:

Personally, I think the scum we have in Gitmo should have been killed in the field. They should never have been brought to a U.S. base in North America... or anywhere else. Upon release they will just go back to terrorist business as usual.

This I don't disagree with. Either eliminate them, or let them rot with no chance of getting out. But don't they deserve a trial (no, I'm not suggesting a civilian court trial)?

Quote:

You're not too much of an apologist for America's enemies are you?

Not quite sure where you pulled that one from. Please explain.

Thanks for logging in and letting us know exactly what you are all about in your first post.

It is obvious that you have no connection with reality whatsoever.

What mosque do you attend up there in Vancouver?

Seeing that Muslims are the most recent inhabitants of the Holy Land (hundreds of years as you claim, compared to thousands of years for the Jews).... does that mean in a few years Europe and even North America will be claimed by Muslims? Should our women get fitted for burquas now?

You love using words like "hatred" and "intolerance". The only real hatred and intolerance in today's world lies in Islam, Islamic nations and Muslim terrorists.

But as part of the PC diversity crowd I am sure you think it is hateful and intolerant to even mention these things. Regardless of the fact that it is the hard truth.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Why is it obvious that I "have no connection to reality whatsoever"? And who says I attend a mosque? I don't understand why you appear to have taken it upon yourself to slot me into a category as a member of the PC diversity crowd who attends a mosque.

And yes, I did state that Jews have been in what is now Israel for thousands of years and that the Muslims did not move into Palestine until relatively recent times. I don't see your point. What does concern me is your suggestion that Europe and North America may someday be claimed by the Muslims. North America was founded on Christian morals and values, and is one of the reasons why so many of us here are sons and daughters of immigrants who have come and settled here, and more importanly, remained here. What scares me now is that those same Christian values are being eroded in the name of political correctness to the point where words like God, Bible, Christmas, etc are taken out of our schools, malls, cities, etc. So, to answer your question regarding our women wearing burquas?: No, they don't need to wear them now, but do keep them handy as our Charter of Rights and your Constitution may be rewritten to accommodate burquas in the near future.

Recently, I had the opportunity to look into Islam, purely for interest sake. It appears to be a religion that preaches forgiveness, love, tolerance and to spread the word of Allah to the ends of the earth and to defend the faith at all costs. Strangely enough, it has a lot in common with Christianity. Unfortunately, some forms of Islam has been perverted by some to satisfy their selfish needs, eg. the Taliban. Oh wait, Christianity has that problem too, eg. the Crusades, Catholic priest/pedophiles and other scandals.

I really don't know and certainly don't pretend to know that there is a solution to this global mess. Perhaps, it is in our nature as man to destroy one another. As early as the Old Testament, man has had conflicts and have killed one another beginning when Cain killed his brother Abel (sp?) in a fit of rage.

The world, its people and its conflicts are not conveniently in black and white. If it were, and that all Muslims were evil, it would be so easy to just kill them all. Unfortunately, there are people like Osama bin Laden and other leaders in organizations like Hamas, Al-Queda, PLO, Taliban, etc who have the ability to unite under Islam, a people who are generally uneducated, oppressed and living in poverty. They are united in the quest to destroy the State of Israel and anyone else who supports them. The USA, with its wealth, freedoms, prestige and support for Israel is a convenient target for such organizations. Perhaps, the USA is currently in a position to influence some positive change in the Middle East. It is a BIG job, one that I certainly wouldn't want.

We are not all right-wing wackos or deviant liberals here. It is not all black or white, right or wrong.

You're trying to be clever with your selective quoting. If the scum currently held at Gitmo were killed in the field there would be no discussion about morals. Most of them could have been killed by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. They would have been happy to do the deed. Bush was actually TOO MORAL for even allowing this whole Gitmo thing in the first place. Now every hate America lefty has rallied to their cause. Bush should have seen that coming a mile away. You know, the same lefty's that support evey other form of immorality infecting our society. In a strange sense of irony, these very lefty's and liberals are one of the reason these Islamic fundamentalist terrorists claim to hate America in the first place.

Poor choice of examples. Not even in the same category.

No. They are combatants who initiated armed conflict against the United States. That is why the government had to declare them "enemy combatants". They are a new class of enemy. If they were declared civilians or POW's the above mentioned lefty's would have found a legal loophole and a federal judge who would have released every one of them. I think even you know this to be true. The government knew this and acted accordingly. The Bush admin is aware of the leftist fifth column who is actually on the side of our enemies. (Again which makes me wonder why they even brought them to Gitmo in the first place)

Since we made the mistake of holding them, they deserve a military tribunal aboard an aircraft carrier then a swift execution. Of course no civilian court. The civilian courts have absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter regardless of how much your hate America friends try to claim.

In every debate on here you always try to look for some way to defend the worst elements of our world.... most especially enemies of America. You may think you are playing devil's advocate but it often does not come across as such. You rarely argue on the side of your own country in any debate. You go out of your way to portray your own country wrong on most issues...especially foreign policy debates and also our handling of terrorism. Such is the case with Islamic terrorists. They issue tapes or threats on an almost daily basis yet you see your own country as the primary problem. Maybe you have a problem with the fact that we are doing anything about it at all. You seem like one of these leftists that always view their own country as the problem regardless of the behavior or actions of any foreign elements. You definitely come across as an apoligist for the enemies of America. I guess you don't even realize it. You only change your tune when challegened. I only know what you post. But I do know you are anything but a moderate on most important issues and terrorism is the most important issue of our times.

I guess you didn't take the time to read your original post. I will quote it below for you if you have forgotten. You blamed 9/11 on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. You know .... those Jews who are backed by the U.S. The same Jews who receive the same amount of money we give Egypt. A conviently forgotten fact in the blame the evil Jew argument. What do we get for our support for Egypt? Anti-Americanism and support for terrorism. Another conviently forgotton fact.

Your whole tirade was the same classic bullshit perpetrated by the PC diversity crowd. Hate the Jew.. support the Palestinian terrorist. The anti-semitism was rather obvious. My first impression upon reading the post was that you were a Palestinian living in Canada. My second thought was you might have been a leftist professor at Concordia University or some other Canadian indoctrination center. Your post was right out of their philosophy.

My current thought is that you are a bullshit artist who is just posting what he thinks others want to hear.

Oh yeah... another thing... don't be one of these idiots that brings up the Crusades in every debate regarding Islam. That is another bullshit tenet of the PC diversity crowd. That was 500 years ago. It has no bearing on the problems of the modern world in 2003. It just shows more of your impressionable train of thought. Islam did quite a bit of bloody and savage crusading in it's day. Still does. Another conviently forgotton fact.

When have I ever tried defending Saddam? Questioning our government's policy is not defending Saddam.

Quote:

You rarely argue on the side of your own country in any debate. You go out of your way to portray your own country wrong on most issues...especially foreign policy debates and also our handling of terrorism.

I portray Bush's actions as questionable. Did not you question Clinton's decisions? So therefore, neither one of us believes that whatever the President does represents the "country."

Quote:

Such is the case with Islamic terrorists. They issue tapes or threats on an almost daily basis yet you see your own country as the primary problem. Maybe you have a problem with the fact that we are doing anything about it at all. You seem like one of these leftists that always view their own country as the problem regardless of the behavior or actions of any foreign elements. You definitely come across as an apoligist for the enemies of America. I guess you don't even realize it. You only change your tune when challegened. I only know what you post. But I do know you are anything but a moderate on most important issues and terrorism is the most important issue of our times.

I'm sorry...you must have me mistaken for someone else. I have never defended or justified anything that terrorists have done. I have never said, "we are wrong, we shouldn't do this..." I usually post something questioning what we ARE doing. "Is it the right thing?" If you think I have posted something that says we are wrong or terrorists are justified in ANY way, please post what I said.

I wonder what the naysayers here would say if some terrorist faction out there got a WMD and used it on a civilian target? Wonder how many 180's we would see if the unthinkable happened. If you think these groups aren't looking for them, or trying to develop them, you are kidding yourself. It's not about if anymore, but when. If it were to happen on GWB's watch, all the left will be ripping him for not doing more than he already has.

Saddam is a dangerous man, and he's not all together upstairs. Now he has less of an influence on the people of Iraq. So now it's up to them to move their country forward.

We've seen now what they are capable of doing. I'm not defending every American action, but sometimes we have to fight against what is purely evil in this world. America isn't perfect, but I've been all over the world and I think we have it pretty good here.

Face it naysayers, there is a fatwa against anyone who isn't muslim. This has been the rally cry for many of the factions there are now. The extreme militant fundamental muslims will spill the blood of you and your families and cheer about it. Those terrorists have no place in the world so they want to destroy it. If the conflict in Isreal were to end, the fight between Sheia, and Summi would flare up. They can't get along with themselves. It's going to be a tall order to try to bring peace to people who are content with hate and destruction.

Its time to get ugly. It time to let Israel declare formal open war against Hamas and all other terrorist organizations. I will go one further. Here is an idea:

Many terrorists blow themselves up for the glory of becoming a martyr, they know that Hamas (and Saddam before he was driven away) will pay their family a nice chunk of change because of what thier son or daughter did in the name of allah.

So I say this, Israel should let it known that they have a new policy they are implementing. If you blow yourself up commiting a terrorist act, you will get a missile in the front door of your families' home. There will be no one there to get the check for your act of violence. You kill innocent civilians, your family gets it. Simple, barbaric, and I would imagine quite effective.

I will say again I am quite happy we are in Iraq. Its better to fight the terrorists there than on the streets of Orlando, or Philly, or New York. Quick, lets name the terror supporting nations off the top of our heads. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. Well, it seems to me that a strong military presence right smack dab in the middle of all of them does not seem like a particularly bad thing to me. Especially now that we are pulling out of Saudi Arabia. If you dont think the fact we have 100,000 plus troops just over the border of all these countries doesnt give them pause, you are crazy.

This is World War III. A new kind of war where the enemy is not a conventional army, where the enemy hides in shadows and the only way you know they were there is if something is exploding or burning. In this type of a war, we cannot afford to wait and react, because then it would be too late. We need to be offensive, we need to be aggressive, otherwise it will not work.

For once I agree with you Stone. The war between the Muslims and the West started in the late 80's and early 90's, yet the world as a whole seems to be in denile about it. I think everyone can now see that the US didn't go into Iraq hard enough, and to this day, the troops are spread way too thin to do a job they weren't trained for. If I were Bush right now, I'd be worried that this Iraq "Conflict" turns into another Vietnam because you know in the end, the Muslims we help today will turn on us eventually.

As for the Palestians and Israeli's, I say give the Palestians their state AND build a great big fucking wall between it and Israel. This way when Hamas strikes again, Israel can actually declare war and blow the shit out of them, putting the blame fully on the new Palestian State and it's people.

I will have to agree with MBFlyerfan's ideas to deal with suicide bombings on the civilian targets in Israel. It is called DETERRENCE. I will further add that by firing a missile at the families of a suicide bomber, it will cause suicide bombers to hide their identities after future attacks. This will cause the martyrdom movement to go underground, thus making it less attractive to those who want fame and fortune for their family. However, Hamas will simply switch to other tactics; they will simply NOT go away and one would be living in a dreamworld to think Islamic militants will simply disappear. There needs to be a real desire to work out a peace/land deal with the Palestinians. Their hatred for Israel and the USA go deep. Many are taught from adolescence to fight the Israelis and rise against the "infidels".

To respond to NY Madman, I am rather flattered that you thought I may be some left-wing professor from Concordia. You would be surprised how right-wing I am. Unfortunately, not everyone fits nicely into the two categories represented by the left and right political spectrums. Are you disappointed?

I'm not sure if this message thread began as a tribute in remembrance of 9/11, but it appears to have been side-tracked to cover the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Afterall, I do believe that is one of the contributing factors that resulted in 9/11. Maybe the Israeli/Palestinian topic deserves its own thread?

Jeez, this has been posted here like 70 times already. Robin Williams did not write it, nor did Ted Nugent.

Not Robin Williams, dumb-ass . . .

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/williams.asp

Reposting stupid internet crap doesn't lighten moods . . .

Go to the Clubhouse, find the Booty Call thread, and contribute something worthwhile for your fellow XOCer . . .

Unless you can find us the Charlie Daniels-anti-celebrity rant. Haven't seen that one in a couple hours . . . :rolleyes:

Well , allow me to Brent. Behold the power of "search":

If you had searched you would have found this Old , tired Robin Williams Hoax

Then it might have led you to this Comedian Robin Williams came up with a plan for how the U.S. should handle foreign affairs. False!

And with a little more effort you might have looked to Google for a second opinion and found this : Netlore Archive: Sarcastic \'peace plan...obin Williams

Thank you Graham. And you as well Socal.

You forgot Libya and Yemen. Momar Khadafi has been really smart keeping his crazy third world dictator routine to himself lately.

Quick question: What do five of the six countries on your list have in common?

Answer: We have supplied them with either weapons , money , intelligence , political support or all of the above in persuit of our goals. Why is it that every time we let a country hop in bed with us they end up hating us.

How soon before Pakistan thanks us for the billions we gave them to launch the Afghanistan war by attacking us? Or will we eventually decide that their millitary dictatorship in posession of REAL VERIFIED WMD is unacceptable?

Yeah, ever since our military parked a few missiles through his front door. My take on this is the people who are responsible end up gaining too much influence. Then the radicals, using Islam as a tool, try to rally against us because of the terrible influence we have had on thier culture. You know, things like music, educating women, healthcare, womens rights, representative governmental ideas, you know, all that horrible western stuff.

But Afghanistan was stil recieving aid from us ONE YEAR before the 9/11 attacks. We were fully aware of their politics and feelings towards western society and thinking towards us and they were suspected of harboring al queda.

We are fully aware of the Saudi's thoughts on women and western society and that was clearly amplified when eight of their citizens , funded by other (at least one) Saudis hopped on our airplanes and crashed them into our buildings filled with Americans. Yet , we continue to have diplomatic and financial relationships with them.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship with the same extremest muslum undercurrent as Afghanistan that is still happens to be in the midst of a cold war type nuclear showdown with India , yet we "needed" their support in our war against Afghanistan so we gave them lots of money and opened diplomatic ties.

What weren't we aware of when we did that? So , I ask again ; How long before that comes back to bite us on the ass?

I thought it has been biting us on the ass and that is why we are not running any more. If you dont think that our troops over in Iraq are not designed to also make Pakistan and Saudi Arabia tremble a bit, well I cant change your mind.

We know they are going to bite us in the ass. We give, and gave aid to nations because they suited our national interests at one time or another. A stong and influential America equals a safer world no matter what people try to say. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. This is also a huge reason why terrorists are after us. They want to take our influence away.

We were allies with USSR during WWII even though many of our military knew what they were and what they represented. It was a nessesary relationship. Just like when we gave money to Iraq to fight Iran. Just like when we contributed to Afganistan to fight the USSR. Just like now we need Pakistan so we can use thier airspace to hunt for Bin Laden. I understand these are relationships built on mutual convenience. But they are nessesary. France and Germany hate what we do so much at the moment because whether they like it or not, they need us. They hate this fact but it is a fact all the same.

I apologize if this has been posted before: On a lighter note.

Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide.
Let's see now... No beer, No booze, No bars, No
television, No cheerleaders, No baseball, No
football, No basketball, No hockey, No golf, No
tailgate parties, No hooters, No pork BBQ, No
hot dogs, No burgers, No lobster, shellfish, or even frozen fish sticks. Rags for clothes and towels for hats. Constant wailing from the guy next door because he's sick and there are no doctors. Constant wailing from the guy in the tower who has been imprisoned because he cant grow a beard. No chocolate chip cookies. You can't shave, Your wife can't shave, You can't
shower to wash off the smell of donkey cooked over burning camel dung. The women have to
wear baggy dresses and veils at all times. Your bride is picked by someone else. She
smells just like your donkey. But your donkey has a better disposition. Then they tell you
that when you die it all gets better. No mystery here.

You have failed to mention that when they do die, there are 72 willing virgins waiting for them in heaven. That would be an incentive for me to blow myself up!

I guess this is why they kill all those women for showing thier faces or learning. They have to keep heaven stocked with enough virgins to fullfill the needs of all the ones our soldiers have sent there recently.

And you sat on your butt the whole time talking smack. You're such the web hero.

The Republican Propaganda Network (Fox News) aired a report that the interpretation of the Koran was incorrect that it was 72 grapes? Ridicule of a person's religion never goes over well.

I like Robin Williams interpretation that it was 72 Virginians. Bin Laden goes to heaven and gets lynched by George Washington and company.

No... Of course I am not disappointed. I was merely responding to what you wrote in your first post. You seem to have changed your tune somewhat but I am skeptical of you. Why would anyone who considers themselves to slant to the right politically as you claim, be flattered to be mistaken for a Concordia University professor? That place is a groundswell of out of control leftism and support for Palestinian terrorism. Not to mention outward hatred for Jews and Israel.

I have agreed with some of the stuff in your later posts but you are seriously wrong if you think the Palestinian issue was in any way related to the attacks on 9/11. May I remind you there would be no Palestinian cause if it were not for the insane constant interference from the U.S. and other liberal Western nations.

First of all Socal.... 15 of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi's. Not eight.

Regarding Pakistan... yeah it is a totally fucked up country. Basically our support for that country is really support for one man.. Gen. Musharraf. He doesn't even control the whole of his own country. I wouldn't really put him in the dictator category. He took control of the country in a coup to keep control away from the radical Islamist factions. He is hanging on by a thread. The U.S. military does have a plan to move in and take control of their nuclear weapons if anything were to happen to Musharraf or if those weapons somehow became compromised.

We also never gave weapons to all the countries you mentioned in one of your previous quotes. We stopped supporting Iran many years ago. At one time they were an ally. That was before Islamic fundamentalism spread throughout the Islamic world. The countries in the Middle East don't need American weapons. They can get them from China, Russia and many European countries. They don't need us to supply them.

You forgot to mention Pakistans biggest benefactor as far as nuclear technology and weapons... CHINA.

China is ramping up their weapons and misslile technology and soon it will be equivalent to ours. How did they get that technology? I think you know. China is selling and exporting this technology to all of our enemies. You may be surprised to know that they are also helping Brazil become a nuclear power. The leader of Brazil is a communist who hates the U.S. Also who controls both the eastern and western access to the Panama Canal? A front company for the People's Liberation Army...China.

We are surrounded by enemies, but who is our biggest enemy in the world today... it is China. They are arming the world and exercising influence in untold countries.... and no one in our country even talks about this. It has to make you wonder.

Just to correct a common fallacy. Not all muslims believe in opressing women as much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan. Iraq allowed women to show their faces and attend school, there was no rule that they couldn't. Out of the people I met it sounded just a little stricter than 1950's America. Women stay at home and take care of the family and men leave the house and work. And in Kuwait at the colleges women are pretty comfortable in Western styles and culture.

I'm pretty sure I have some pictures of educated Iraqi women dressed in western style clothing somewhere. She was a tour guide to the ruins of Babylon and a Professor in Archeology, which she earned during the decades of Saddams rule.

And isnt this one of the reasons why the extremists hate us so much? For these very reasons they commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam. The so-called western influence on thier culture. All good Muslims all over the middle east need to start making a VERY PUBLIC outcry denouncing and ridding themselves of these extremists. This has not been done yet. In my eyes this lack of protest is one root of the problem. Maybe its the liberal media's fault. Because all I see on the news after every attack anywhere is a bunch of Idiots shooting thier guns into the air saying "death to America", or "Death to Israel!" (do they ever stop to think that these bullets come back down?)

Not once do I see a rally condemning these acts.

This got me wondering... I know that some people have satellite in the area...but how much foreign news do most of the people really get?