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#156072 - 09/11/07 07:37 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
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Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
*sigh*
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#156073 - 09/11/07 07:54 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
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Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
*sigh*
Yep... I'm done arguing my point. This is useless.

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#156074 - 09/11/07 08:41 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


None of this explains where the air comes from to lift the plane. No air over/under the wing = no lift.

If all the plane needed to fly was engine thrust, why do they have wings?

The plane will not take off.

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#156075 - 09/11/07 08:53 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
InfX708 Offline
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Registered: 24/09/00
Posts: 864
Loc: Ft. Bragg, NC
Like I said, it is all dependent upon the point of observation. To a guy on the treadmill, the plane is moving forward. To the pilot, the treadmill is moving backward. The question doesn't indicate whether the speed is airspeed or ground speed. If it is airspeed, then air is flowing over the wings, but then the aircraft is hardly moving forward at the same rate the treadmill is moving it backward. If it is ground speed then the plane is not moving forward relative to an observer not on either the treadmill or the plane.
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#156076 - 09/11/07 09:12 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
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Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
None of this explains where the air comes from to lift the plane. No air over/under the wing = no lift.

If all the plane needed to fly was engine thrust, why do they have wings?

The plane will not take off.
Well, fuck me running.

You got me there, pardner.

[Freak]
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#156077 - 09/11/07 09:56 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
None of this explains where the air comes from to lift the plane. No air over/under the wing = no lift.

If all the plane needed to fly was engine thrust, why do they have wings?

The plane will not take off.
Alright... I'll bite again.

The wheels of the airplane are simply there to support the air craft and to allow the plane to roll as it accelerates.

For the plane to have thrusting force it simply relies on air to make it happen. Have you ever seen a jet powered dragster? Well it's the same concept but with wings and different aerodynamics to allow it to fly, that's all.

Whether ground is at stand still or moving (treadmill) has no effect. Theoretically, forces of gravity aside, if the plane or the dragster were suspended in mid air standing still, then thrust from the jet engine would be applied, both would still have momentum in the opposite direction of thrust.

Think of it this way. Shuttle is taking off into space. Now, let's say shuttle is taking off vertically but the wheels are resting against a wall of sorts, no matter which direction (forward or aft) the wall is moving, the shuttle would still take off. Essentially, it's just like the plane on the ground/treadmill, but at a 90 degree angle.

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#156078 - 09/11/07 10:04 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Would someone who thinks the plane won't fly please explain how a tread mill, running at any speed, is going to keep a plane sitting on FREE SPINNING wheels from moving forward?

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#156079 - 09/11/07 10:21 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jesus fucking christ....

People, if there were enough FRICTION in the wheels to prevent the plane from moving, it would NEVER take off, regardless as to whether or not they're moving at 500 mph, 1,000 mph, or 0 mph for/against the airplane. The rotational speed of the tires (aka, what the ONLY motion the conveyor belt can cause) doesn't effect the speed of the aircraft anywhatsoever.

Example 1: Plane rolls down a runway, hits it's lift-speed, and takes off. Tires stop rolling, eventually, due to the minor friction they have in their bearings. So at some point, the tires aren't moving at all. To rephrase: Rotation of tires = ZERO mph. However, the plane is still moving, aka, FLYING. Rotational speed of the tires does NOT equal (or even effect, for that matter) the speed of the aircraft.

Example 2: Plane is coming in for landing. Hasn't touched down, yet. Tires are rotating at 0 miles per hour. Plane is still moving forward.

The only way the aircraft can NOT take off, is if the ROTATIONAL speed of the tires can somehow effect the DIRECTIONAL speed of the aircraft. Unfortunately, this is NOT the case. The tires rotate INDEPENDENTLY of the aircraft's forward movement, because the tires are NOT the propulsionary mechanisms in an airplane!!!

Once again, forward thrust of a plane is NOT caused by torquing the tires. EVER. It is not a car. Therefore, a conveyor belt torquing the tires (causing a rotational movement) in either direction does NOT effect the forward thrust caused by the plane's engines. The tires/wheels are just along for the ride.

For those that like math... If the conveyor belt moves 300 mph in the opposite direction the plane is wanting to go, then the tires of the plane are actually going in FORWARD rotation (it's like gears; one spins one way, other spins OPPOSITE way) at 300 mph. As the plane begins to take off, the tires (because they're just free-spinning, anyways) will start to accelerate. By the time the plane hits 200 mph & takes off, the tires are spinning at 500 mph, but moving forward at only 200 mph.

Those that think the plane can't take off: quit mistaking ROTATIONAL speed of the tires with DIRECTIONAL speed of the aircraft. They're COMPLETELY different things.

The plane fucking takes off.

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#156080 - 09/11/07 10:46 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
NY Madman Offline
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"It's a madhouse.... It's a madhouse!"

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#156081 - 09/11/07 11:04 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
InfX708 Offline
Member

Registered: 24/09/00
Posts: 864
Loc: Ft. Bragg, NC
You "it will take off" people are assuming that the aircraft is moving forward relative to a fixed observer. Since no such observer is mention in the question, I assume the forward speed of the aircraft is from the view of someone on the belt of the treadmill. This person is stationary from their point of view, but the aircraft is moving. When the pilot looks at the belt of the treadmill he sees that he is moving, but if he observed a relatively fixed point, he would see that he is not moving. Now, we know air is a fluid and thus tends to stick to things, so there will be a small amount of air flowing over the wings, but not enough to generate the lift needed. Based on your theory, an aircraft could never land facing east because the earth is spinning too fast.
Face it, it's a flawed question.
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#156082 - 09/11/07 11:32 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
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[LOL]

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#156083 - 09/11/07 11:51 AM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by InfX708:
You "it will take off" people are assuming that the aircraft is moving forward relative to a fixed observer. Since no such observer is mention in the question, I assume the forward speed of the aircraft is from the view of someone on the belt of the treadmill. This person is stationary from their point of view, but the aircraft is moving. When the pilot looks at the belt of the treadmill he sees that he is moving, but if he observed a relatively fixed point, he would see that he is not moving. Now, we know air is a fluid and thus tends to stick to things, so there will be a small amount of air flowing over the wings, but not enough to generate the lift needed. Based on your theory, an aircraft could never land facing east because the earth is spinning too fast.
Face it, it's a flawed question.
No. The people that say it takes off understand that an airplane moves due to engines pushing air, NOT wheels being forced to turn. Relative location of the observer doesn't matter.

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#156084 - 09/11/07 12:01 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by ChefTyler:
Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by cadams7407:
OMG! does the navy know about this!? Why don't they have treadmills on all the air craft carriers!?!?!?!?!
Bad example there, Leroy.

An aircraft on an aircraft carrier uses a catapult.

The distance a plane takes to take off on land is the same as the distance to take off if there were a treadmill under it.

Put yourself on iceskates. Stand on ice next to a pole. Put flippers on your hands. Now flap like a bird trying to fly forward (not up). You WILL move relative to the pole. Same thing.[/b]
He's not getting that the plane's engines are providing thrust, I bet.

I think he's one of the people envisioning a static aircraft on a treadmill . . .[/b]
Willing to bet he's one of those people that are cornfused and think the engines drive the wheels.
Actually, no. I get how thrusters move the plane.

I'm from the "traditional role of a treadmill" crowd.

For those that say it will take off, then it will take a very long treadmill, about the length of a runway, perhaps? Where the wheels on the plane are spinning twice as fast as they would on a runway, right? That makes the treadmill a moot point. In fact .. that would be a conveyer belt .. not a treadmill, a subtle, but important difference.

A treadmill is supposed to simulate travel, but at the same time, confine actual movement to a space nearly the size of the object on it. SO going with that, if the plane ain't movin, it ain't gonna catch flight no matter how fast you get the wheels spinning with the treadmill.

The thrusters are superflous in the treadmill experiment. Cause as soon as you turn them on, it will drive off the treadmill onto pavment = fail.

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#156085 - 09/11/07 12:01 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
No. The people that say it takes off understand that an airplane moves due to engines pushing air, NOT wheels being forced to turn. Relative location of the observer doesn't matter.
I'm almost tempted to call the treadmill-and-wheels part of the ENTIRE argument a red herring.

Do whatever the fuck you want to the wheels with the treadmill. Forward. Backward. Faster. Slower. Whatever.

None of that will affect the airframe and the force of thrust being enacted upon the airframe.
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#156086 - 09/11/07 12:04 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
[b]No. The people that say it takes off understand that an airplane moves due to engines pushing air, NOT wheels being forced to turn. Relative location of the observer doesn't matter.
I'm almost tempted to call the treadmill-and-wheels part of the ENTIRE argument a red herring.

Do whatever the fuck you want to the wheels with the treadmill. Forward. Backward. Faster. Slower. Whatever.

None of that will affect the airframe and the force of thrust being enacted upon the airframe.[/b]
Exactly. The tires spinning do not effect the motion of the plane.

Quote:
For those that say it will take off, then it will take a very long treadmill, about the length of a runway, perhaps?
Not "about" as long as a typically runway. EXACTLY as long as a typical runway. Take off distance of the plane will be the exact same as if it was a solid, non-moving surface underneath it. Again, the rotation of the tires do not effect the motion of the plane. There is no connection between the tires and the airframe, except a pin that allows the tires to rotate freely around it.

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#156087 - 09/11/07 12:12 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the treadmill moves as fast as the plane it wont take off.

If the plane moves faster than the treadmill and builds up enough speed, yes it will.

Depends on how the question is worded.

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#156088 - 09/11/07 12:14 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
If the treadmill moves as fast as the plane it wont take off.

If the plane moves faster than the treadmill and builds up enough speed, yes it will.

Depends on how the question is worded.
So what if the treadmill is moving as fast as the plane? Does the movent of the treadmill restric the flow of air under the wings thus not lifting the plane?

For the plane to take off, there are two forces required: thrust and lift. The speed of runway or whether it's moving forwards or backwards has NO effect on those forces whatsoever.

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#156089 - 09/11/07 12:20 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


well if the treadmill is moving just as fast as the plane, there is no wind to move over the wings to provide lift.....

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#156090 - 09/11/07 12:22 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
well if the treadmill is moving just as fast as the plane, there is no wind to move over the wings to provide lift.....
Now you're just fucking with us, right? Right?
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Does anybody remember laughter?

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#156091 - 09/11/07 12:25 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


don't the wings need air resistance to lift the plane?

If you are running on a treadmill holding a hangglider, and you jump forward, will you fly?
no, there is no air resistance....

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#156092 - 09/11/07 12:31 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
READ THIS THREAD.....

Link to plane on treadmill thread...

That thread contains everything you wanted to know about a plane on a treadmill... but were afraid to ask.

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#156093 - 09/11/07 12:32 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
For those that say it will take off, then it will take a very long treadmill, about the length of a runway, perhaps?
Quote:
Not "about" as long as a typically runway. EXACTLY as long as a typical runway. Take off distance of the plane will be the exact same as if it was a solid, non-moving surface underneath it. Again, the rotation of the tires do not effect the motion of the plane. There is no connection between the tires and the airframe, except a pin that allows the tires to rotate freely around it.[/QB]
well, thats not really a treadmill now, is it?

look up the definition of treadmill. There is a key part to the definition, the object on the belt remains stationary. You got the plane moving a 1/4 mile or more = not stationary, ipso facto, your plane is not on a treadmill.

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#156094 - 09/11/07 12:32 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
don't the wings need air resistance to lift the plane?
Okay.

Stop focusing on the treadmill.
The wheels are free-rolling. The movement of the wheels and the treadmill DON'T MATTER.

The engines light up, start generating thrust, and propel the plane FORWARD. During this movement, the wheels are spinning a trillion miles an hour in whatever direction you like -- IT'S IMMATERIAL!

As the thrust pushes the airframe forward atop those little spinning wheels WE DON'T CARE ABOUT, the air is moving across the wings faster and faster, until enough lift is generated, and the plane takes off -- at approximately the exact same distance down the treadmill-runway as it would on a concrete-runway.
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#156095 - 09/11/07 12:37 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
[b]don't the wings need air resistance to lift the plane?
Okay.

Stop focusing on the treadmill.
The wheels are free-rolling. The movement of the wheels and the treadmill DON'T MATTER.

The engines light up, start generating thrust, and propel the plane FORWARD. During this movement, the wheels are spinning a trillion miles an hour in whatever direction you like -- IT'S IMMATERIAL!

As the thrust pushes the airframe forward atop those little spinning wheels WE DON'T CARE ABOUT, the air is moving across the wings faster and faster, until enough lift is generated, and the plane takes off -- at approximately the exact same distance down the treadmill-runway as it would on a concrete-runway.[/b]
That means that the plane is moving faster than the treadmill, "propels forward".
I dont care about the wheels either. If it moves faster than the treadmill yes it will take off. But the treadmill is supposed to be moving as fast as the plane....

If you are running on a treadmill holding a hangglider, and you jump forward, will you fly?
no, there is no air resistance....

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#156096 - 09/11/07 12:39 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by cadams7407:
look up the definition of treadmill. There is a key part to the definition, the object on the belt remains stationary. You got the plane moving a 1/4 mile or more = not stationary, ipso facto, your plane is not on a treadmill.
If I put a fucking Weslo-Cadence ButtFucker 2000 in my home gym and walk in place on it, it's a treadmill.

If my cat jumps on the fucking thing and starts running forward, backwards and throwing up hairballs on it, has it suddenly become a towel-rack?

I get what the definition is. Alternating its use for ten minutes does not turn it into a big bowl of spaghetti or a luscious pair of tits.

It's still a treadmill.
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