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#166087 - 30/12/06 12:07 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
[b]You people just don't get it.....If the conveyor is matching the plane's speed, the wheels will just be spinning twice as fast as the plane is actually travelling. However, the plane will still be moving forward......Forward motion will give the plane the lift required to take off. You are all STILL hung up on the wheels vs the conveyor. There is a third force at work here....the engines. And, yet again, I'll say that the conveyor is not working against the engines [b]AT ALL! The engines are working completely independant of the conveyor....[/b]
And you're hung up on thinking the plane is weightless. The wheels ARE exerting force on the conveyor - the weight of the airplane.[/b]
That's great! I'm not arguing that. The force is being exerted downward, and not forward or in reverse.... Downward force will not affect the desired end result of forward motion unless the downward force is so great that the plane won't move regardless of what's under it. We KNOW that this is not the case, otherwise there wouldn't be flight...

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#166088 - 30/12/06 12:08 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
Try pushing your Xterra up a hill in neutral and then come back and ask again.

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#166089 - 30/12/06 12:08 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
Member
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Back to your "rope is rope, not wind" comments Moby....

Is it just me, or does this look like a series of ropes travelling around the wing?!?

You're kidding, right?
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#166090 - 30/12/06 12:09 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
It determines how much the engines have to work to get the thing moving forward.[/b]
And there you go....it's moving forward...

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#166091 - 30/12/06 12:10 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
It determines how much the engines have to work to get the thing moving forward.[/b]
So what if you just have some really huge engines?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#166092 - 30/12/06 12:10 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
[b]Back to your "rope is rope, not wind" comments Moby....

Is it just me, or does this look like a series of ropes travelling around the wing?!?

You're kidding, right?[/b]
You need to think more abstractly wink

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#166093 - 30/12/06 12:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
Try pushing your Xterra up a hill in neutral and then come back and ask again.[/b]
In the scenario you're describing, you're pushing vertically, not horizontally...

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#166094 - 30/12/06 12:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Assuming there is no wind, the plane has to move relative to the surrounding ground, i.e. whatever is next to the conveyor belt, to achieve flight. It's not going to do that if the conveyor is matching the aircraft's speed.

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#166095 - 30/12/06 12:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
Try pushing your Xterra up a hill in neutral and then come back and ask again.[/b]
Yeah, but this scenario isn't on a hill. It's on a level runway.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#166096 - 30/12/06 12:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK. one more try. Kind of the opposite scenario posted by XPLORx4. Can we agree that one effect of the conveyor is to double the rotating speed of the wheels?

Imagine an aircraft on a long runway wtih a tailwind (FYI- a tailwind is counter-productive to the attainment of lift) of say, 120 knots. Exactly the airspeed needed by the aircraft to lift off. The aircraft begins takeoff roll, with the wind. The wheels spin faster and faster. The plane reaches 120 knots of groundspeed, and has reached zero airspeed. The aircraft continues to accelerate and reaches 180 knots groundspeed, which is 60 knots airspeed. The wheels are spinning at 180 knots now. The aircraft then reaches airspeed of 120 knots, which is 240 knots groundspeed, 240 knots of wheelspin. Lift can be achieved at 120 knots airspeed, and the plane takes off.

Those numbers in review:
At rest on the approach end:
Airspeed -120 [negative 120 knots]
Groundspeed 0
wheelspin 0

starting takeoff roll:
Airspeed 0
Groundspeed +120
wheelspin +120

Halfway to achieving lift:
Airspeed 60
groundspeed +180
wheelspin +180

at liftoff:
airspeed +120
groundspeed +240
wheelspin (before liftoff) +240

Now shouldn't the plane stay on the ground according to the "not-flyers'" logic?

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#166097 - 30/12/06 12:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]What does the weight of the plane have anything to do with forward movement?
Try pushing your Xterra up a hill in neutral and then come back and ask again.[/b]
In the scenario you're describing, you're pushing vertically, not horizontally...[/b]
Fine. Try pushing your Xterra on level ground and then ponder what weight has to do with forward motion. The force of gravity must be overcome to move an object, whether it's up, down, forward, back, or sideways.

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#166098 - 30/12/06 12:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Assuming there is no wind, the plane has to move relative to the surrounding ground, i.e. whatever is next to the conveyor belt, to achieve flight. It's not going to do that if the conveyor is matching the aircraft's speed.
The conveyor matching the airplane's speed will only cause the wheels AND the conveyor to rotate at twice the speed of the aircraft. Fact of the matter is the plane will STILL be moving forward regardless...

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#166099 - 30/12/06 12:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
I'm becoming a PoHo thanks to this thread! [ThumbsUp]
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#166100 - 30/12/06 12:13 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok...how has gravity come into play now? It's not going to prevent an airplane from taking off. If that were the case, we wouldn't have flight! See my first post on page 26

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#166101 - 30/12/06 12:14 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
The force of gravity must be overcome to move an object, whether it's up, down, forward, back, or sideways.
Uh, dude: Gravity only affects things in the VERTICAL dimension. You don't see apples fall from trees SIDEWAYS do you?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#166102 - 30/12/06 12:14 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
FRICTION.

You guys are completely ignoring friction......
We are?

I guess you missed the equations:

Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Instead of trying to convince everybody that the wrong answer is right, read the UNBELIEVIABLY simple physics of the situation.

Coefficient of dynamic friction:

Force of friction:

F(f) = -uN

(negative because it opposes motion)

u = coefficient of static friction

N = weight of plane

Notice velocity is not included!

That means that the velocity of the conveyor belt is irrelevant for all practical purposes.

F(t) is force of thrust

a = (F(t)+F(f))/m

You won't find a scenario where |F(f)| is greater than |F(t)|. Therefore, in ALL cases the plane moves with respect to the atmosphere, thus achieving lift.

Please stop being so bloody indignant and pause long enough to understand why the correct answer is correct. [Huh?]

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#166103 - 30/12/06 12:14 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
And, yet again, I'll say that the conveyor is not working against the engines [b]AT ALL! The engines are working completely independant of the conveyor....[/b]
The conveyor HAS to be working against the engines if it's matching the plane's speed.[/b]
Dude...the only thing that can work against the engines is the air flowing through them. The conveyor is working on the wheels....[/b]
FRICTION.

You guys are completely ignoring friction.

If the engines are off, and if there was NO friction, and that conveyor belt moved, the plane shouldn't budge - it will just have rolling wheels.

But it WON'T. It WILL move backwards.

What do you think a wheel is for, Moby? It's there to REDUCE FRICTION.

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#166104 - 30/12/06 12:15 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
OK. one more try. Kind of the opposite scenario posted by XPLORx4. Can we agree that one effect of the conveyor is to double the rotating speed of the wheels?

Imagine an aircraft on a long runway wtih a tailwind (FYI- a tailwind is counter-productive to the attainment of lift) of say, 120 knots. Exactly the airspeed needed by the aircraft to lift off. The aircraft begins takeoff roll, with the wind. The wheels spin faster and faster. The plane reaches 120 knots of groundspeed, and has reached zero airspeed. The aircraft continues to accelerate and reaches 180 knots groundspeed, which is 60 knots airspeed. The wheels are spinning at 180 knots now. The aircraft then reaches airspeed of 120 knots, which is 240 knots groundspeed, 240 knots of wheelspin. Lift can be achieved at 120 knots airspeed, and the plane takes off.

Those numbers in review:
At rest on the approach end:
Airspeed -120 [negative 120 knots]
Groundspeed 0
wheelspin 0

starting takeoff roll:
Airspeed 0
Groundspeed +120
wheelspin +120

Halfway to achieving lift:
Airspeed 60
groundspeed +180
wheelspin +180

at liftoff:
airspeed +120
groundspeed +240
wheelspin (before liftoff) +240

Now shouldn't the plane stay on the ground according to the "not-flyers'" logic?
See, this is what I'm saying. Your argument rides on a tailwind of fixed velocity. In the scenario, the conveyor moves faster and faster as engine thrust is increased, so the speed relative to the surrounding air remains zero.

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#166105 - 30/12/06 12:15 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
The conveyor matching the airplane's speed will only cause the wheels AND the conveyor to rotate at twice the speed of the aircraft. Fact of the matter is the plane will STILL be moving forward regardless...
If that's the case - the conveyor is no longer matching the speed of the aircraft.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#166106 - 30/12/06 12:16 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
AAARGGG!

The belt only moves if the plane moves....

Speed, or Movement, means relative to the world...not the belt.

My GPS will say I'm going 0 mph if I am on a tread mill that is turning at 4 mph.

If my tread mill MATCHES MY SPEED, it would be turning at ZERO MPH.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#166107 - 30/12/06 12:17 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
(I think Moby and BlueSky still think the earth is flat, btw...)
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#166108 - 30/12/06 12:17 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
[b]The conveyor matching the airplane's speed will only cause the wheels AND the conveyor to rotate at twice the speed of the aircraft. Fact of the matter is the plane will STILL be moving forward regardless...
If that's the case - the conveyor is no longer matching the speed of the aircraft.[/b]
There's a new invention in town.

They call it the wheel! [Freak]

It rolls, even on conveyor belts!

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#166109 - 30/12/06 12:17 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
What do you think a wheel is for, Moby? It's there to REDUCE FRICTION.
Actually, the wheel bearings are there to make it a nearly frictionless scenario wink

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#166110 - 30/12/06 12:19 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
AAARGGG!

The belt only moves if the plane moves....

Speed, or Movement, means relative to the world...not the belt.

My GPS will say I'm going 0 mph if I am on a tread mill that is turning at 4 mph.

If my tread mill MATCHES MY SPEED, it would be turning at ZERO MPH.
We tried to explain that to them but they are two busy defending the incorrect answer to read!!

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#166111 - 30/12/06 12:19 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
(I think Moby and BlueSky still think the earth is flat, btw...)
[Geek] You mean it's not flat?!? Prove it!! It has to be, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see a straight line on the horizon! laugh [LOL]

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