I read this article, and it made me laugh. Should be good for some heated conversation...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316546,00.html

What's so wrong with a bit of nude waterboarding?

We ll for one thing, the size of image. The enema that would occur if she fell off, for another.

Yes... Waterboarding terrorists IS a good thing.

The leftists don't like it because they don't like anything that will make a terrorist feel uncomfortable.

Maybe if we start using mineral water or Evian, the leftists may come around to waterboarding. Maybe we should use gallons of whatever trendy Starbucks "latte" or whatever else these people drink. Maybe we can promise to recycle the water and be "environmentally friendly". That's the ticket.

One day you're going to surprise people with an independent thought.

Cause everything is black and white. Every person waterboarded is a terrorist. Every person executed is guilty. Only good information is grabbed from torture.

Just think for once, if we torture or kill one innocent person, aren't we the guilty ones?

In special cases maybe, but I think what's currently going on is a violation of the Geneva Convention and though most other countries don't adhere to it, I always thought that was what set us apart from them.. I thought America upheld and was held to a higher standard? Once again, I would have no problem waterboarding say Bin Laden or his top aids, but waterboarding snuffy the infantry man because he made an IED might be going overboard...?

I wonder how long it will take for laws to be passed that allow US citizens to undergo the same treatment under the "War on Terror" banner? without legal council or trial?

Waterboarding is pretty harsh...

I'm willing to bet anyone will admit to anything if they were waterboarded...

Here's an idea...waterboard Jenna Bush and then let's see whether it's torture or not.

...I forget who came up with that idea first, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

That's a good point. We are dealing with an enemy that will kill himself to take out a couple "infidels". How can we even be sure the information gleaned from this method is even useful?

How do you extract information from someone, especially a trained or highly motivated terrorist, without torture?

For all of you who think this is such a terrible thing how would you suggest we get the info? Just lock them up and hope they decide to share?

Yes being water boarded would be horrible, its like being drowned, over and over again, cant breath, cant get away. But it does no permanent damage and stopping provides immediate relief. Should we go back to a shower, battery cables and a sponge?

Who the fuck cares if it IS torture. If it could save your families life I say do it. If saves even 1 solder in Iraq or Afghanistan I say do it.

I'm sure I'd be quick to break under those circumstances. But my understanding of this technique is it's not used to extract a confession for that very reason. People will cave in and admit something relatively easily. Anyone can confess to something, even if they know nothing about it. They use waterboarding to extract information...something that not just anyone will give up at the first sign of discomfort.

How about you one day surprising everyone with an opinion that is based on some facts and not emotion or propaganda.

Every person this country has waterboarded has been a terrorist. It also has only been used in a few cases.

I realize people like you always wish to extend your "everything is gray" argument and moral equivalence to include even the worst terrorists in the world. Especially when you think it is politically expedient.

Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding has also saved people's lives.

You people on the left are always claiming you are concerned about the lives of innocent people. Waterboarding has saved the lives of innocent people.

Your supposed concern for innocent people is specious at best.

Technically terrorists are not covered by the Geneva Conventions. Whatever rights we have granted them, we have done it because we ARE better than they are or the state governments that assist them.

We also do not torture "snuffy the infantry man". What country are we at war with that would have infantry men? Infantry soldiers of other countries are covered by the Geneva Convention. We are not at war with any country.

I say "torture the shit out of all of the suspects." During WWII, a SHITload of US pilots, soldiers, etc, who knew NOTHING about troop movements, etc, were tortured. Some of them were tortured to death. Its part of the game called "War." We train soldiers for it, it happens.

After those fucks murdered 2,000+ innocent Americans, it was ON. Sorry, I'm sure some of those tortured were innocent... but there's only one way to find out. give me the wire, I'll zap the shit out of them.

:rolleyes: Hippies...

Those who support America torturing people have obviously either forgotten or abandoned the principles that made this country great. Waterboarding is the kind of thing North Korea does, and the former Soviet Union, and the Japanese and Germans during World War II. Apparently we prosecuted war criminals after World War II for waterboarding people so at some point the United States considered it a crime. That's who you want to line yourself up with?

Of course, that America didn't start wars, either.

For those of you who support it, let me ask you a question: at what point do the interrogators decide that their current subject has no useful information? Wouldn't they pretty much have to render the person dead or damaged for life to be sure they weren't just holding out?

What astounds me the most is that you trust the government - which proves itself incompetent at best and corrupt at worst on a regular basis - to decide who needs to be tortured. Could you be any more naive?

If you're so convinced waterboarding isn't torture, how about we convene the first XOC Waterboarding Demo. All you brave keyboard commandos can step up, let yourself be strapped down, and show us all how tough you are and how waterboarding "does no permanent damage and stopping provides immediate relief." Afterwards, if you can still speak coherent sentences, you can tell us all if having it done to you has changed your definition.

Any takers?

Yeah, didn't think so. :rolleyes:

I would like to respond to Bluesky's comments.

1. Waterboarding is torture.
2. I don't freaking care if terrorists are waterboarded. At least they aren't being threatened with the possibility of living under the command of Hillary.
3. I am not a terrorist, so I won't be waterboarded, nor do I have any fear of being waterboarded.
4. Torture is meant to hurt.
5. If you hate this country that much, move. There's over 200 others to choose from.

Probably, yes. What's your point?

So, what alternative are you suggesting? Picketing? Bitching? Passing out Flowers? I'll do some research and I'll vote. Occasionally I'll write some congressmen. Realistically, that's ALL I can do. I'll tell you this much; at the time, the government did its best under the circumstances and none of us know 100% of the rationale for their decisions. You would rather trust CNN's interpretation of the events? THAT, my friend, is naive.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I believe it most certainly *IS* torture and if it helps, even the slightest little tiny bit, to keep this country free from another terrorist attack, then I'm all for it.

Oh yea, we killed several hundred thousand innocent people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

GUILTY!

Sure, it prevented the continued slaughter of a few million more... does anyone think about that?

I guess we should have let Hitler kill ALL of the jews... better that than risking the death of ONE innocent and being "just as guilty ourselves."

Give me a break. War sucks, its part of the deal and some people LOSE and they're not all guilty.

These people would gladly murder every one of you...even Jorge. I see no issue with it.

It IS humane compared to the shit they're doing to our soldiers and their own people in the middle east and elsewhere.

The Norks, Japs and Nazi's did far more than waterboarding. Who are you trying to kid here?

Who have we prosecuted for waterboarding? Post links to the cases and/or transcripts. Don't post links to some leftist propaganda blog where you may have read that.

What principles are we abandoning? We are abandoning no principles. In the past we executed enemy combatants. We also didn't do insane things like grant them the right of habeas corpus in our civilian courts.

People who make the claim that this country is abandoning principles in our dealings with the worst of terrorists, have no concept of how similar type people were dealt with in the past.

All these arguments being presented, largely by the political left, are really nothing more than being tantamount to taking up the cause of these people.

Quote:

For those of you who support it, let me ask you a question: at what point do the interrogators decide that their current subject has no useful information? Wouldn't they pretty much have to render the person dead or damaged for life to be sure they weren't just holding out?

Waterboarding when done properly does no damage and does not kill. Therefore, it is not torture.

The same people who argue that waterboarding is torture, are largely the same people who think putting women's panties on some prisoners head is also torture.

Quote:

What astounds me the most is that you trust the government - which proves itself incompetent at best and corrupt at worst on a regular basis - to decide who needs to be tortured. Could you be any more naive?

Should we trust the people at MoveOn.org or Code Pink to wage the war against terrorists?

Quote:

If you're so convinced waterboarding isn't torture, how about we convene the first XOC Waterboarding Demo. All you brave keyboard commandos can step up, let yourself be strapped down, and show us all how tough you are and how waterboarding "does no permanent damage and stopping provides immediate relief." Afterwards, if you can still speak coherent sentences, you can tell us all if having it done to you has changed your definition.

I doubt anyone here has been trained in the correct procedure of waterboarding.

If you want some video demos, there tons of videos on YouTube of people waterboarding each other at numerous left wing protests.

But then again, few of them spoke coherent sentences prior to being waterboarded, so it is hard to tell if they sustained any permanent damage.

Good point Desert Rat. No one's lopping off hands or heads and posting it on the internet here. What's done is done in private, and only to the extent that is needed to ensure the safety of those involved. These people we're fighting against, they see us as evil incarnate. They want nothing to do with negotiations or discussion. They want us dead. Period. So it would be utterly foolish to sit there and talk to ourselves, hoping to appeal to their humanity and common sense. They have none. All they understand is violence and warfare. It's been in their lives since day one, and it's what their hateful, racist religion requires of them. So I say, if they want violence, and they insist on bringing it to us, then let's give them what they want.

We cannot be baited into a question of a false choice

Torture or die...you choose.

Im REALLY surprised no one has brought up the "OK well what if their was a nuke in a city and this one guy had all the answers?"

"Huh ?!?!? Huh?!?!?! What about that ?!?!"

Torture is a question of ethics.

The question of what does a good man do when desperate?
What does he compromise?

Is torture ever justified?
Real torture such a burning people with acid or skinning alive

Should we torture all terrorists or just reeeely bad ones?

eg. some punk kid with an AK who ran off and was caught or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?

Are we to torture for the simple sake of revenge or for intelligence purposes?

How do we know when they have told us everything ?

Who determines who a terrorist is?
The US government administration? The individual soldier on the ground who found him? The people in that town/village?

What if they are US citizens found aiding terrorists?
Should we torture them to see if they know more traitorous Americans?

Does it matter if they are citizens? Should the government be able to strip your rights at will and begin torture?

What about suspected criminals?
It would be much easier to prosecute when they just confess.

A fundemental question:
Are human rights inherent?

Are human rights, in even their most basic sense, truly universal?
Do some people have more basic human rights then others?

first among equals kinda stuff or pretty blond goes missing vs well anyone not pretty blond

Do your personal ethics change when you see others disregard any sense of ethics?

eg. Does the fact there is a hoodrat dealing crack right now make it more ethically acceptable to you personally to sell crack.

or

The terrorist piece of shit just murdered a group a schoolkids is it now morally acceptable to go into his village and murder their schoolkids?

At what point do we become the psychotics we despise for their savagery?

I have always thought that the United States holds itself to a higher standard because we are the LAST force for goodness and decency.

The only true test of morality is what a man does when no one is looking and its hard to do the right thing

Sorry man, I'd have an easier time debating you if I had any idea what you were talking about. Learn how to express yourself in complete and coherent sentences (there and their?) and I'll get back to you.

By "answers," do you mean "buttons?" Why is the "Huh ?!?!?" in quotes? Did someone we should know say that at a rally or something?