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#168439 - 13/12/07 04:41 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Samueul Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
Quote:
I think it is safe to say he is getting help. Are you willing to attack another country for one terrorist mastermind?
YES! Holy fuck YES! Isn't that the point! Whoever is helping him NEEDS to be attacked but I guarantee you the people that are helping him and the likes of him are the ones we wouldn't dare touch *cough* Saudi Arabi *cough*. Besides we attacked another country under bad intelligence to dispose of someone who had no teeth to begin with....Why stop there?

We may not know where Bin Laden is, but I can tell you we aren't looking for him in any real capacity. Our troops in Afghanistan are basically doing the same they are doing in Iraq, being dicked around by politics and putting their lives on the line for naught, only they are doing it in a much smaller force.

The bulk of our military and our war on terror should be scouring Afhanistan and Pakistan for the bastard and his entire family should be sitting in a cell somewhere being waterboarded. We actually know who and where they are. Instead we are in another country under bad intelligence wasting valuable resources all the while killing our world image and destroying our own citizens faith in their nation.

Our politicians are inept, and they are using hammers when they should be using scapels..
_________________________
Must stay away from political/religious debates. Must stay away........

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#168440 - 13/12/07 04:52 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Samueul Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
Quote:
However, there is no doubt that the political left has been engaged in a long drawn out fight within the system in this country and the judiciary to grant constitutional rights to foreign terrorists... or enemy combatants.

That is EXTREMELY dangerous to this country.

Considering that the Supreme Court has granted cert regarding this issue, I'm afraid that this country is headed in a very dangerous direction. All of it because of politics. None of it because of the law or past case law, history, or precedent. None of it with the best interests of this country in mind.

What's that saying.... "I have seen the enemy and the enemy is me". We are our own worst enemy.

If anyone would have asked almost anyone else on Sept. 12, 2001 if this country would be considering constitutional rights for foreign international terrorists, the 9-11 masterminds, or whether waterboarding the worst of those terrorists to prevent future attacks would ever be an issue in this country... they may have thought you would be insane.

But that is exactly what is occurring.
I agree with you on this, but I think it's accuring because we have lost sight of the goal and gotten way off track with our objective. I feel like our country is in a dark room and anytime someone flicks on the light we shout "terrorist!".

We have gotten into the game of playing whack-a-mole and someone else keeps feeding the damn thing quarters so the game never ends. I believe that someone is the Saudi royals but we won't touch them....

They control the spice.......
_________________________
Must stay away from political/religious debates. Must stay away........

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#168441 - 13/12/07 07:08 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Samueul:

Quote:
I think it is safe to say he is getting help. Are you willing to attack another country for one terrorist mastermind?
YES! Holy fuck YES! Isn't that the point! Whoever is helping him NEEDS to be attacked but I guarantee you the people that are helping him and the likes of him are the ones we wouldn't dare touch *cough* Saudi Arabi *cough*. Besides we attacked another country under bad intelligence to dispose of someone who had no teeth to begin with....Why stop there?
No. That is NOT the point. We can't just attack any country at random because we may think Bin Laden may be hiding out there.

If we did have actionable intelligence as to a definite location of Bin Laden, there are other ways we can deal with him and his immediate cronies without attacking a country.

Are you actually serious with some of the stuff you have been writing? eek

I remember about a year or so ago there was a report that there was actionable intelligence regarding his location at a funeral for some Taliban or high ranking Al Qaeda member, but a Pentagon DOD lawyer supposedly canceled the strike to kill him. If I recall, the reason given was that women and children were also at the funeral.

Unfortunately, DOD lawyers are running a lot of the war on terror and making many of the decisions for the most part. Not the generals. That is what this country has come down to in many respects. Not all decisions, but many. Sometimes decisions are made based on how those decisions will play out in the Hague.

You're the one concerned about international reputation, so that is the price we are paying to international reputation. Appeasing the Hague.

I doubt OBL is in Saudi Arabia. There is no way he could hide there without us knowing about it. He is most likely either in Waziristan (uncontrollable mountainous regions of Pakistan), Iran, South America, or Kashmir.

I don't like the Saudi's any more than you do, but we can't just attack them. Our economy is based on petroleum and we just couldn't do that even if we wanted to. Unfortunately our economy is going to be linked to petroleum long after your children are older than you are right now.

Quote:
We may not know where Bin Laden is, but I can tell you we aren't looking for him in any real capacity. Our troops in Afghanistan are basically doing the same they are doing in Iraq, being dicked around by politics and putting their lives on the line for naught, only they are doing it in a much smaller force.
I'd say that is false. We are doing the best we can as far as looking for him. He is not in Afghanistan so our troops can turn over every single table and probably not find him. He is a coward. He would not be hiding anywhere that there are American forces nearby.

Quote:
The bulk of our military and our war on terror should be scouring Afhanistan and Pakistan for the bastard and his entire family should be sitting in a cell somewhere being waterboarded. We actually know who and where they are. Instead we are in another country under bad intelligence wasting valuable resources all the while killing our world image and destroying our own citizens faith in their nation.

Our politicians are inept, and they are using hammers when they should be using scapels..
I disagree that we should capture his entire family. They are not all terrorists. He has an extremely large family. Some of them actually are terrorists, but I would say most are not. I think a few are right here in the United States. Some are in Europe too.

I agree that our intelligence agencies are highly problematic. The mistakes they have made over the years are tremendous.

Unfortunately politics seems to be playing too much of a role in deciding what is or has been an intelligence mistake and what is not. Intelligence seems to be a matter of political expediency of late.

Time will tell what turns out to be correct. Let's hope that our intelligence failures don't continue to kill thousands of our own citizens. It doesn't look promising because no one seems to ever get fired regardless of the failures or regardless of the lives lost due to their failures.

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#168442 - 13/12/07 07:29 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Samueul:

I agree with you on this, but I think it's accuring because we have lost sight of the goal and gotten way off track with our objective. I feel like our country is in a dark room and anytime someone flicks on the light we shout "terrorist!".
It sounds like that fountain you have been drinking from may be too much Alex Jones or some other conspiracy type garbage. Maybe too much Ron Paul.

Quote:
We have gotten into the game of playing whack-a-mole and someone else keeps feeding the damn thing quarters so the game never ends. I believe that someone is the Saudi royals but we won't touch them....

They control the spice.......
The Saudi's control a lot of the spice, but not all of the spice.

Our politicians refuse to allow Americans to see the sources of much of the money that funds many non-profit organizations in this country. If they did, we would be able to see more of the Saudi's activities. Not to mention the activities of many other countries and entities.

A lot of the "spice" winds up in the pockets of many people. Some are people you probably like. Some are probably people we all like.

But, we don't live on "Dune".

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#168443 - 13/12/07 07:34 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Ok Madman - Anguish is not part of the definition fo torture, but agony is. The difference:
Agony is the intense pain of mind or body.
Anguish is extreme pain, distress, or anxiety

There is a difference. Lots of things can cause anxiety but not pain - like being fired and worrying how you are going to pay next months rent.

Being forced to listen to music you don't like is not torture. You may be anguished, but I doubt listening to a Jay-Z album would cause you angony.

Being forced to listen you do not like for 48 straight hours while being denied sleep, food or water is.

You say Waterboarding is ok on Foriegn terrorists or enemy combatants, but not on US citizens:

So what About John Wlaker Lindh? - US Citizen and member of Al Qaeda. Do we treat him as a citizen, as a foreign terrorist, or as an ememy combatant? And who gets to make that call?

Again, we are back to that ethical question...
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#168444 - 13/12/07 07:35 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Madman's funny. Take his post that started, "The CIA says it only waterboarded three terrorists..." And he believes them, because our government in general and the CIA in particular would never, EVER lie.

And then he goes on with his usual putting words in peoples' mouths, smearing them by association, and so on. Usually it's a gang of one with him but he's got some help this time.

Just so we're clear: I believe in interrogating terrorists using every method short of torture.

I believe that following 9/11 the primary and overarching mission mission of the United States and all of its resources was capturing or killing Osama Bin Laden. Any moron can grasp that capturing or killing OBL won't end their jihad. I never said that was the purpose. The purpose of getting him is strictly for the satisfaction of squaring accounts with the guy behind 9/11. Simple as that.

I believe in personal responsibility and that people should learn the idea of decisions resulting in consequences. So yes, school activities and games should have winners and losers. That's how you learn to make better decisions, and the angst of losing is a character-builder that motivates people to get better.

I believe Bush and his cronies have completely botched Iraq and basically ignored border security, port security, and aviation security (they're still not screening most cargo carried on passenger jets), not to mention doing little to stem the tide of illegals coming into the country.

And I believe Madman and his ilk (love using one of his favorite words against him) have to attack others because their viewpoints don't stand on their own. They selectively quote points they think they can refute and ignore the valid ones. They think it's ok to torture as long as it's done to "them" because "they" deserve it. You'd better hope you're never considered one of "them."

To answer Madman's question from earlier, I can't link to anywhere other than the Washington Post on the U.S. prosecuting Japanese war criminals for waterboarding. But Madman would attack that source. Well, I'm not wading through thousands of pages of trial transcripts to prove a point to someone who will dismiss its validity somehow anyway. So no, Madman, I can't link to a mutually-agreed impartial source on that. But I believe it happened based on the account I read, and if I can't "prove" it happened, you can't prove it didn't. Try if you'd like.

And you can't prove everybody at Gitmo or everyone tortured by the U.S. is a terrorist, and I can't prove they aren't. We only have the word of the government. The same government that has lied again and again and again whenever it suits their purposes.

Maybe that's the bottom line here; you trust the government and I don't. Tell me, are you in the, "They can monitor my phone and e-mail because I have nothing to hide" bunch? Good luck with that. Maybe you won't end up taking an innocent picture of your child and being investigated as a pedophile.

I'm sure Madman will find my source to be a liberal left-wing America-hating terrorist-loving puppy-killing rag. After all, it is the magazine Popular Photography and Imaging. Just in case you want to boycott it. :rolleyes:

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#168445 - 13/12/07 07:41 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockaholic:

[b]First of all, Madman, I never once said I wanted to grant Constitutional rights to non-American citizens - so don't put words in my mouth.
Maybe you personally do not. If I said that you personally did feel that way instead of making a statement regarding the political left, then I agree I would have been wrong.

However, there is no doubt that the political left has been engaged in a long drawn out fight within the system in this country and the judiciary to grant constitutional rights to foreign terrorists... or enemy combatants.[/b]
I would agree, if you made a statement about the political left, and not me personally, then you would not have been wrong.

However, you did lump me in with the left when you made your statement in repsonse to mine:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockaholic:

Afterall, Madman, that could be part of your Al Qaeda cover before you blow us all up in a attack with your Al Qaeda Buddies.
Now I am supposed to be a member of Al Qaeda because I support waterboarding the worst of terrorist captives?
It's crap like that is the reason why most people can never take you people on the left serious....You people on the left need to start asking yourselves why all of a sudden you wish to grant the constitutional rights of American citizens upon foreign enemy combatants.
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#168446 - 13/12/07 07:47 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockaholic:

Ok Madman - Anguish is not part of the definition fo torture, but agony is. The difference:
Agony is the intense pain of mind or body.
Anguish is extreme pain, distress, or anxiety

There is a difference. Lots of things can cause anxiety but not pain - like being fired and worrying how you are going to pay next months rent.

Being forced to listen to music you don't like is not torture. You may be anguished, but I doubt listening to a Jay-Z album would cause you angony.

Being forced to listen you do not like for 48 straight hours while being denied sleep, food or water is.

You say Waterboarding is ok on Foriegn terrorists or enemy combatants, but not on US citizens:

So what About John Wlaker Lindh? - US Citizen and member of Al Qaeda. Do we treat him as a citizen, as a foreign terrorist, or as an ememy combatant? And who gets to make that call?

Again, we are back to that ethical question...
I was actually joking about the JayZ comment. Well, sort of. To me it is torture. But then again, .... to each his own.

The whole mental anguish, anxiety, or whatever you want to call it regarding the torture issue, is an attempt to downgrade torture. Some even consider humiliation torture. It is getting beyond ridiculous.

Johnny Walker Lindh is an American citizen and received his due process as an American citizen.

I'm not sure why you would even mention his name.

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#168447 - 13/12/07 07:57 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, at least we have a good topic of debate here.

Raise your hand if you think the capture of Bin Laden will magically end the war on terror and make all the Al Queda people go back to their huts and live out the rest of their days peacefully.

I'm guessing there's not too many hands up. So now tell me why we should direct all resources towards capturing one sickly Arab fuck with bad kidneys when we can be elsewhere going after the active terrorists? I'm not trying to justify Iraq here, but I am pointing out the obvious that Al Queda are a worldwide scourge that have to be dealt with by a heavy hand.

We've talked about cowards. I can think of nothing more cowardly than planting roadside bombs, car bombs, and suicide bombers that target innocent civilians, women, kids, etc. Yet we're cowards for using somewhat unconventional means to extract information from the bastards we do catch? 3 whole people? C'mon.

Anyone who has served in the US Army and went through basic training suffered more torture than a few hours of waterboarding, and we volunteered to do it.

Don't believe me?

- PT until you experience total muscle failure
- CS Gas Chamber - remember that? That SUCKED!
- Brutal road marches

What is torture, anyways?

Websters definition:

1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

Based on this, anytime I'm forced to listen to rap music, Britney Spears, etc., that's causing anguish of mind.

Agony and pain. Waterboarding. Maybe.

To those of you against it, what are your thresholds? How would you handle it? Do you think your non-offensive politically correct ways are equally effective?

Guys, remember who we're dealing with here. No, we're NOT stooping to their level. Waterboarding is a little less severe than beheading and blowing people up.

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#168448 - 13/12/07 07:59 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

Madman's funny. Take his post that started, "The CIA says it only waterboarded three terrorists..." And he believes them, because our government in general and the CIA in particular would never, EVER lie.

And then he goes on with his usual putting words in peoples' mouths, smearing them by association, and so on. Usually it's a gang of one with him but he's got some help this time.
Bluesky, you did imply that the government was treating a lot of people harshly.

Also, considering the fact that things like waterboarding is a questionable technique even with those that have to do it, it is not unreasonable to believe that only a few high profile terrorist captives have been waterboarded.

Maybe you listen to too much Teddy Kennedy when he practically implies George Bush is waterboarding everyone included the White House cleaning staff. You would almost think that Bush is holding their legs to listen to his bullshit.

And since when does this asshole Teddy Kennedy have the right to say anything about waterboarding? He left a woman to die under water and now he is concerned that 9-11 conspirators are being made to feel uncomfortable. FUCK HIM.

I also did not put any words in your mouth or smear you by association.

Lighten up Francis.

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#168449 - 13/12/07 08:19 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

[b]Madman's funny. Take his post that started, "The CIA says it only waterboarded three terrorists..." And he believes them, because our government in general and the CIA in particular would never, EVER lie.

And then he goes on with his usual putting words in peoples' mouths, smearing them by association, and so on. Usually it's a gang of one with him but he's got some help this time.
Bluesky, you did imply that the government was treating a lot of people harshly.

Also, considering the fact that things like waterboarding is a questionable technique even with those that have to do it, it is not unreasonable to believe that only a few high profile terrorist captives have been waterboarded.

Maybe you listen to too much Teddy Kennedy when he practically implies George Bush is waterboarding everyone included the White House cleaning staff. You would almost think that Bush is holding their legs to listen to his bullshit.

And since when does this asshole Teddy Kennedy have the right to say anything about waterboarding? He left a woman to die under water and now he is concerned that 9-11 conspirators are being made to feel uncomfortable. FUCK HIM.

I also did not put any words in your mouth or smear you by association.

Lighten up Francis.[/b]
You're a piece of work. You quote my point, deny doing it, then do the exact thing you're denying by attempting to link me with Kennedy, then end your Teddy rant by again denying doing what you just did.

What about my other points, Madman? That's the essence of debate, to refute the other guy's points (if you can). Continually taking a pass just because you can't refute it or the answer doesn't fit your agenda is one of the many things that completely undermine your credibility.

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#168450 - 13/12/07 08:20 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockaholic:

I would agree, if you made a statement about the political left, and not me personally, then you would not have been wrong.
Alright Rockaholic. I was trying to be nice in case I said something that you did not say. Now I am being called on a technical foul.

If I included you in a group that you did not belong, I am sorry. If I did not correctly identify you as on the left, I am sorry.

I don't know what the hell I did, but I will graciously say sorry about that.

I don't feel like getting into really serious arguments. Some light debate is fine.

I'm still half loaded from last night and I just cracked open another Heineken.

Merry Christmas bro.

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#168451 - 13/12/07 08:32 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

You're a piece of work. You quote my point, deny doing it, then do the exact thing you're denying by attempting to link me with Kennedy, then end your Teddy rant by again denying doing what you just did.

What about my other points, Madman? That's the essence of debate, to refute the other guy's points (if you can). Continually taking a pass just because you can't refute it or the answer doesn't fit your agenda is one of the many things that completely undermine your credibility.
What are you talking about Bluesky?

I never connected you with Kennedy. That was merely just a passing statement about the waterboarding subject. Kennedy was the first politico that came to my mind. Nothing against you.

You take far too much to heart. You need to relax a bit. I wasn't attacking you personally.

I'll use smilies in my responses to your posts in the future. I know I fail to use them sometimes, and that does create some confusion with intent.

Is that alright?

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#168452 - 13/12/07 08:37 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Johnny Walker Lindh is an American citizen and received his due process as an American citizen.

I'm not sure why you would even mention his name.
Well, are you talking about torture as punishment or torture as a way to get information. Because if you're just extracting information, then according to you, torturing him would be ok. If you're talking about it as punishment, then he received his due process and shouldn't be tortured.

So, which are you for; Extracting information or punishment? Because they're two wildly different reasons for torturing someone.

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#168453 - 13/12/07 08:41 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:

Well, are you talking about torture as punishment or torture as a way to get information. Because if you're just extracting information, then according to you, torturing him would be ok. If you're talking about it as punishment, then he received his due process and shouldn't be tortured.

So, which are you for; Extracting information or punishment? Because they're two wildly different reasons for torturing someone.
I'm not talking about torture Wilmac. I'm discussing waterboarding.

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#168454 - 13/12/07 09:05 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Anonymous
Unregistered


*rubbing his hands with glee at the success of the thread*

Okay gang, here's another log to throw on the fire. A couple days ago, I saw this interview on the Today show. It's a former CIA agent who used waterboarding. He talks about his feelings on its use and the authorization required to even have it as an option. Check it out...

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&vid=5e5abc17-c215-4567-bc7 1-3749e5cd73bf

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#168455 - 13/12/07 09:21 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

[b]You're a piece of work. You quote my point, deny doing it, then do the exact thing you're denying by attempting to link me with Kennedy, then end your Teddy rant by again denying doing what you just did.

What about my other points, Madman? That's the essence of debate, to refute the other guy's points (if you can). Continually taking a pass just because you can't refute it or the answer doesn't fit your agenda is one of the many things that completely undermine your credibility.
What are you talking about Bluesky?

I never connected you with Kennedy. [/b]
You didn't?

Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Maybe you listen to too much Teddy Kennedy...
Yeah, where'd I ever get the idea you were trying to bogusly link me to Teddy Kennedy? [Freak]

You are remarkably out of touch with reality.

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#168456 - 13/12/07 09:37 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
PDXterra Offline
Member

Registered: 27/02/03
Posts: 857
Loc: Portland, OR
I'm just curious - because I honestly don't know - but since the start of the Iraq war, has there been any evidence that proves that torturing of bad guy X directly resulted in saving the lives of the Good Guy(s)?

If the answer is "yes," then why would the CIA destroy those tapes? Wouldn't they hold them up as proof/evidence that torture gets results?

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#168457 - 13/12/07 09:47 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

Yeah, where'd I ever get the idea you were trying to bogusly link me to Teddy Kennedy? [Freak]

You are remarkably out of touch with reality.
Geez... I already explained myself to you.

You never let go. It's constant nitpicking on every single word.

I'm almost expecting you to ask me if you look fat in this dress. eek

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#168458 - 13/12/07 10:09 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by PDXterra:

I'm just curious - because I honestly don't know - but since the start of the Iraq war, has there been any evidence that proves that torturing of bad guy X directly resulted in saving the lives of the Good Guy(s)?

If the answer is "yes," then why would the CIA destroy those tapes? Wouldn't they hold them up as proof/evidence that torture gets results?
The answer is a definite YES regarding the question did waterboarding yield actionable intelligence and thwart terrorist plots.

Waterboarding is not torture, and the top guys that gave us the information were never going to give us information any other way. Waterboarding is the worse thing that happened to them as far as I have ever read.

We have known this about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (the 9-11 mastermind) for several years. He lasted longer under waterboarding than anyone would ever have imagined. I think it was somewhere near two and a half minutes. Most people can't go 30 to 40 seconds.

Every single terrorist that is detained tells everyone within earshot that he has been tortured. That is a tactic that is contained within the Al Qaeda Manual as far as procedures in case of capture.

They know very well how to game our system. They are not stupid.

The CIA had to destroy those tapes. CIA employees were in the tapes. God only knows what intelligence information was disclosed and discussed that could be dangerous if those tapes got into the wrong hands... such as the media. I'm sure there are other reasons too.

Interrogations regarding national security are not the same as the local police questioning a suspect in something like a burglary. There are wide ranging implications.

It's not as simple as the media would like to portray it for their agenda.

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#168459 - 13/12/07 10:35 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:

Anyone who has served in the US Army and went through basic training suffered more torture than a few hours of waterboarding, and we volunteered to do it.
There's the key - "we VOLUNTEERED".
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#168460 - 13/12/07 10:36 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by PDXterra:


If the answer is "yes," then why would the CIA destroy those tapes? Wouldn't they hold them up as proof/evidence that torture gets results?
My guess is that the tapes showed stuff that was maybe worse than waterboarding, which already has debates like this one going.

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#168461 - 13/12/07 10:44 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:

There's the key - "we VOLUNTEERED".
Al Qaeda terrorists are also volunteers Moby.

You don't seem to approve of harsh interrogation methods or waterboarding. Am I correct in that assessment?

If so... Please tell us the methods you would employ to extract information from hardened terrorists who are well trained in our system, our laws, our politics, our media, and our methods.

Not a single person who disapproves of waterboarding has even ventured to answer that question.

You could be the first Moby.

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#168462 - 13/12/07 10:48 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:

[b]Yeah, where'd I ever get the idea you were trying to bogusly link me to Teddy Kennedy? [Freak]

You are remarkably out of touch with reality.
You never let go. It's constant nitpicking on every single word.
[/b]
Right. I show you an explicit example of your BS tactics and it's "nitpicking". No, Madman, it's expecting you to write reasonable statements and then stand behind them instead of trying to weasel out of what you yourself wrote by blaming others for "nitpicking" or misinterpreting. Personal responsibility is empowering. You should try it some time.

And your less-than-subtle attempts to infer [Rainbow] on those who dare to disagree with your point of view gets old too. Grow up. It's easy to be a big man from behind your keyboard. You'd wet your pants if you ever had to back any of your BS insults up in person.

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#168463 - 13/12/07 11:01 AM Re: Waterboarding - It's a good thing.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
[b]
Anyone who has served in the US Army and went through basic training suffered more torture than a few hours of waterboarding, and we volunteered to do it.
There's the key - "we VOLUNTEERED".[/b]
Let me preface this statement with a caveat. I am not a veteran. I completely and utterly respect and admire US military veterans. If I had my life to live over again, I am confident that I would have enlisted. Having said that...

When these demonic maniacs volunteered to be a part of these extremist groups and vowed to bring down the "infidels," as far as I'm concerned, they also volunteered to subject themselves to whatever their enemy might dish out if they get caught being demonic maniacs. So when we turn on the light and the cockroaches start scurrying, I am not surprised in the least when one of them get trod upon. I said it before and I'll say it again: waterboarding is torture. Anyone who denies that is fooling themselves. But it's also not deadly, unless its administrators don't know what they're doing. I'll wrap this up by saying this:

THIS IS WAR. It's not tag. It's not Red Rover. It's not Hide and Seek. People die in war. People get hurt in war. People behave unkindly in war. On both sides. So when the enemy brings their hatred of us to our shores, are we supposed to just wag our finger and say, "hey, that's not Geneva Convention behavior!" People, you can't put football and baseball players on the same field and expect a fair game. Different rules. They set the bar when they decided it was okay to MURDER nearly 3,000 men, women and children. So as far as I'm concerned, making them uncomfortable by simulating drowning is a slap on the wrist compared to what they deserve. *cough*bulletinthehead*cough*

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