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#171054 - 10/04/07 09:04 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:

NYMM, you let all the law enforcement rhetoric corrupt your thinking on this.

You don't have the facts to back all your arguments because they don't exist.

I'll agree with you on 99% of political discussions, but I disagree with you on this one.

Government studies on the long term effects are largely inconclusive. Not all potheads are lazy asses. There's a lot more people than you think who are occassional recreational users. Those same people are involved in local politics, are business owners, etc.
We definitely disagree on this topic.

Pot is most definitely a gateway drug. That is a well known fact and has been a well known fact for many years. It is also not a Schedule I drug because some bureaucrat happened to pick that classification out of a hat either.

In recent years there has been a plethora of propaganda regarding marijuana usage put out by organizations who are pushing the medical marijuana fraud and other bullshit marijuana legalization organizations like NORML.

At the risk of sounding like a liberal, I have always thought it odd that many people who are pro-marijuana and basically pro-legalization are white people for the most part who are middle class and above in socioeconomic class.

The very negative effects of the drug culture in this country have not had the same impact on this class of people. There has been an impact, but not the same as others.

I might have asked this before, but I will ask again.....

Those that seem to think that pot is a benign substance... Who here would have absolutely no objections to their sons or daughters smoking pot?

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#171055 - 10/04/07 09:05 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Xterra Kid 2003 Offline
Member

Registered: 31/01/03
Posts: 1368
Loc: Bozeman MT, originally Detroit...
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
NYMM, you let all the law enforcement rhetoric corrupt your thinking on this.

You don't have the facts to back all your arguments because they don't exist.

Government studies on the long term effects are largely inconclusive. Not all potheads are lazy asses. There's a lot more people than you think who are occassional recreational users. Those same people are involved in local politics, are business owners, etc.
Yeah there are alot of people who are recreational users. I know a few that make well over 100K a year, legally, and smoke. Madman have you ever smoked pot, ever?
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Shall we ski today? Yes of course, every day we can.

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#171056 - 10/04/07 09:23 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Xterra Kid 2003:

Madman have you ever smoked pot, ever?
When I was a teenager I would occasionally smoke pot. But then again, many tried it when we were teenagers. I know some who have never stopped smoking pot. We all know people like that. I'm sure there are people like that here on XOC.

Maybe some are active in this thread. [Smoking]

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#171057 - 10/04/07 09:41 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
Pot is only a gateway drug if you have an addictive nature.

Alcohol is also a gateway drug if you have an addictive nature.

you have the same chances of becoming a Drug addict by smoking pot as you do becoming an alcoholic by Drinking booze...to generalize it is just silly
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#171058 - 10/04/07 09:48 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NismoXse02 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Those that seem to think that pot is a benign substance... Who here would have absolutely no objections to their sons or daughters smoking pot?
Bingo! And I'd like to hear from only those who actually have kids. I noticed my opinion has changed on questions like these only after we had our son.
Quote:
Originally posted by Xterra Kid 2003:
I know a few that make well over 100K a year, legally, and smoke. Madman have you ever smoked pot, ever?
Only 100K? Hell, just look at professional athletes who make millions. Still, that doesn't make it's right. I had a horrible experience with weed and will never support legalizing it. But that's just my own experience.
_________________________
Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.

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#171059 - 10/04/07 09:54 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Xterra Kid 2003 Offline
Member

Registered: 31/01/03
Posts: 1368
Loc: Bozeman MT, originally Detroit...
Quote:
Originally posted by NismoXse02:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[b]Those that seem to think that pot is a benign substance... Who here would have absolutely no objections to their sons or daughters smoking pot?
I had a horrible experience with weed and will never support legalizing it. But that's just my own experience.[/b]
What was the experiance that was terrible??
_________________________
Shall we ski today? Yes of course, every day we can.

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#171060 - 10/04/07 10:01 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NismoXse02 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Xterra Kid 2003:
What was the experiance that was terrible??
Muscle twitches, slowing of heart beat and extreme paranoia. frown
_________________________
Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.

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#171061 - 10/04/07 10:08 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by pnwbeers:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[b]I agree that when people compare marijuana to alcohol it is completely ridiculous and absurd. (For the most part, it is usually pot stoners who make such comparisons. Often as an argument to validate their pot usage).
So give us a meaningful distinction. You basically just typed an encyclopedia and all you gave us on this point was your conclusion that the comparison is "ridiculous and absurd." Well Madman, how exactly is the comparison "ridiculous and absurd?"[/b]
Still waiting...

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#171062 - 10/04/07 10:12 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by NismoXse02:

Muscle twitches, slowing of heart beat and extreme paranoia. frown
Paranoia is a common symptom of pot use.

Many users are introverted and also have cognitive problems.

Marijuana use can also lead to the development of schizophrenia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/30/nvet130.xml


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#171063 - 10/04/07 10:39 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by pnwbeers:

Still waiting...
Waiting for what?

Your answer has already been very eloquently stated by another user.

Primarily being.... you don't have to get high by drinking alcohol.

The only reason anyone smokes marijuana is to get high. In fact most regular pot users go out of their way to amplify the effects of marijuana by smoking it in bongs or through things like carburetors.

The only real comparison between the two is that both are gateway drugs, especially if usage is started early in age.

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#171064 - 10/04/07 10:49 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by pnwbeers:

[b]Still waiting...
Waiting for what?

Your answer has already been very eloquently stated by another user.

Primarily being.... you don't have to get high by drinking alcohol.
[/b]
I don't consider an unsubstantiated assertion about the way two drugs are used differently to be a meaningful distinction between the drugs themselves.

I guess I'll keep on waiting.

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#171065 - 10/04/07 10:56 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
So what is worse:

Being High or Drunk?

Discuss
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#171066 - 10/04/07 11:03 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
great pyr-hauler Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/03
Posts: 347
Loc: Illinois
I have 3 family members that developed schizophrenia from smoking pot. One of the many reasons that I never did illegal drugs.

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#171067 - 10/04/07 11:04 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by pnwbeers:

I don't consider an unsubstantiated assertion about the way two drugs are used differently to be a meaningful distinction between the drugs themselves.

I guess I'll keep on waiting.
My statement was not unsubstantiated. It may not have been acceptable to you for some reason, but it was not unsubstantiated.

The drinking of an alcoholic beverage is not always done with the purpose and intent of getting high. Neither does the imbibing of an alcoholic beverage have to result in a high.

An ounce of alcohol a day can also have beneficial health effects on most people without pre-existing conditions.

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#171068 - 10/04/07 11:53 AM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NismoXse02:
Bingo! And I'd like to hear from only those who actually have kids. I noticed my opinion has changed on questions like these only after we had our son.
OK, I'll bite. I'm a step parent to two teenagers, one who has gone through significant drug problems, rehab, and who has really gotten his life on his own off to a rocky start because of it. It's been an extremely difficult chapter of our lives. I will also tell you we did everything as parents to get help from family therapy to gobs of individualized attention, to individual counseling. It all started when he got a job at the local movie theatre and fell into the social fold of the other losers working there. He was 17 at the time. It cost him everything he had, and he's now 18 and struggling on his own. Tough love. I think now it's starting to hit him how stupid he's been.

This is a kid who as a younger teen adamantly swore off drugs because he knew his real dad ruined his own life with drugs, and he harbored a ton of hate his whole life over that fact. Fortunately, his mom was smart enough to get the kids away from that influence at a very young age (she was a very young mother).

Here's the fact. Whether it's legal or not, people are going to get pot. It's widely and readily available in schools, workplaces and just about any place else you care to look. In big city schools, kids can't get away from it, and nearly half of all high school students experiment with it before they finish high school. That's just how many admit to it in surveys. The actual number is probably even higher. Sitting in group therapy sessions with other teens telling their stories gave a chilling account on how rampant drugs are in the schools here. Kids getting high between classes, on lunch breaks, and dealing on school grounds is absolutely commonplace, and all high school kids have easy access to drugs. When all their friends are trying it, the peer pressure is overwhelming, hence the marked increase in teen drug use in recent years. Arizona's proximity to Mexico only serves to make it worse. Pot is super cheap here, and a kid can easly score a quarter ounce for a week's worth of lunch money.

And it's not just pot either. It's ecstasy, heroin (I couldn't believe how many teen heroin addicts we saw), coke, meth (lots and lots of meth), oxycotin, spray paint....you name it. It's in these kids faces every day.

So...since most of you don't have teens yet, I can tell you this is something you'll have to look forward to. Hopefully your kids don't give into their peers.

Drinking under the age of 21 is illegal to, but the vast majority of high school kids have had drinks. This experimentation is part of growing up, and even NYMM admits he experimented too.

To to answer the question, hell no, I don't want my kids smoking pot, drinking, or doing anything else that's ILLEGAL. I never suggested legalizing pot for kids. It would have to be a 21+ thing like alcohol.

Legalization also solves no social problems aside from decriminalizing dealers and keeping some of that money out of the hands of organized crime.

What it does do is decriminalize something that millions of people do already. Do you really think that illegality is really a deterrent for drug use? If you think that, you're kidding yourselves. The recurring theme I saw with kids getting treatment is the overwhelming feeling they weren't doing anything wrong. They don't even think about the legality issue until they get busted, and even then, it does little to stop the patterns.

Marijuana is already a cash crop. You might as well legitimize it and collect taxes to be put towards the common good instead of letting it continue to support organized crime and foreign drug traffickers. It's here. It's already embedded in our society. It's already easily and readily available at low cost. We lost the war on drugs, and we'll continue to lose it as long as people want to get high.

If pot were completely removed from society, a new drug of choice will be found.

As for the gateway drug comment - you obviously didn't read my first response to that. People don't do other drugs because they smoked pot. People do other drugs because they want to experiment with themselves. Addiction comes from abuse.

As for kids and drugs, I've been there guys....I watched it happen with one of my own, and it was brutally hard. Drugs and alcohol are and always should be illegal for kids who haven't fully developed the maturity to make the right decisions for themselves. That goes with alcohol, curfews, driving the family car...everything. It's an adult decision, and I believe adults should have the freedom to do to their bodies what they please.

If they crash their car because they're under the influence, then let existing laws deal with them accordingly. Alcohol is legal, but driving under the influence of it is not. The same should ring true for anything.

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#171069 - 10/04/07 12:09 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said, Andy. I Can't really think of anything else that needs to be said.

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#171070 - 10/04/07 12:11 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Xterra Kid 2003 Offline
Member

Registered: 31/01/03
Posts: 1368
Loc: Bozeman MT, originally Detroit...
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus:
So what is worse:

Being High or Drunk?

Discuss
Well being high and drunk can put you into the spins real quick. But if your either high or drunk, being drunk is way worse. How many people die a year from alcohol poisoning? Lots. How many people OD on weed? None. Some people might get paranoid while high but at least they aren't getting aggressive and angry. When was the last time a stoned person pissed on your leg, broke your car window, or threw a beer bottle at your head?
_________________________
Shall we ski today? Yes of course, every day we can.

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#171071 - 10/04/07 12:32 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
In fact most regular pot users go out of their way to amplify the effects of marijuana by smoking it in bongs or through things like carburetors.
[LOL] Spoken like a true ex-narc officer.

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#171072 - 10/04/07 12:57 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NismoXse02 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
To to answer the question, hell no, I don't want my kids smoking pot, drinking, or doing anything else that's ILLEGAL. I never suggested legalizing pot for kids. It would have to be a 21+ thing like alcohol.
When I read NYMM's post, I didn't think he meant age. Maybe I misread it, but I thought he meant ever, at any age. I don't care if my son is my age or older, I hope he never smokes it (at any age) based on my experiences.
_________________________
Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.

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#171073 - 10/04/07 01:14 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Samueul Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
I agree that I wouldn't want my daughter to smoke pot or drink alcohol, at any age. I also never want her to date either. Dating leads to broken hearts, mental instability, veneral diseases, bad social character opinion, possible suicide attemps, domestic violence, children out of wedlock, financial ruin, etc.

Hell given the choice between pot, alcohol, and dating, I'd rather she toke up. Dating should be illegal.

Like I stated before, I know many people in my own family whose lives were ruined by alcohol and "hard" drugs, but I've never met ANYONE whose life was ruined by pot smoking. I say legalize it.

As long as cigarettes and alcohol are legal, there is no argument for pot being illegal.
_________________________
Must stay away from political/religious debates. Must stay away........

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#171074 - 10/04/07 01:28 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Here is an interesting article from "The Independent" newspaper in the UK.

They are a fairly liberal paper and used to advocate for the legalization or decriminalization of marijuana. They no longer support that position and even seem to be apologizing for their previous stand on the issue....

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2368994.ece

The article states...

Quote:
The Independent:

The skunk smoked by the majority of young Britons bears no relation to traditional cannabis resin - with a 25-fold increase in the amount of the main psychoactive ingredient, tetrahydrocannabidinol (THC), typically found in the early 1990s. New research being published in this week's Lancet will show how cannabis is more dangerous than LSD and ecstasy. Experts analysed 20 substances for addictiveness, social harm and physical damage. The results will increase the pressure on the Government to have a full debate on drugs, and a new independent UK drug policy commission being launched next month will call for a rethink on the issue.
Maybe as new research keeps coming out, some governments will be rethinking their permissive policies regarding this drug.

It will never be completely legal in the United States. You can take that to the bank.

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#171075 - 10/04/07 03:22 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hate to break it to you NYMM, but it was not necessarily illegal until there were laws passed that did so. Up until then it was a non-issue.

Sorry I struck such a cord with you, BTW what I do is my own business unless it hurts someone else. Lumping people or Classing them together just perpetuates the problems we face in America, however I see the need with some illegal issues, like aliens, you don't have a choice, either they all go or they all stay. I'm for the former.

Lively discussion, however I haven't really seen anyone prove either way that it should be legal or illegal and maybe that's why it's still an issue. Sometimes it's hard to admit the boat is sinking until you're up to your neck in water, hopefully it won't be too late and we can bring rational heads to the table to make sensible laws that are really best for the country and not for special interests.

It would interest me to see a list of pro's vs. con's to see what would bear out.

Also Andy, I didn't know about all that and I wish the best for you man. frown Thank you for sharing your experience.

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#171076 - 10/04/07 03:33 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pot kills....

...entire pizzas.

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#171077 - 10/04/07 03:40 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Hell given the choice between pot, alcohol, and dating, I'd rather she toke up. Dating should be illegal.
[Laughing] Al Bundy, is that you? wink

Quote:
I have 3 family members that developed schizophrenia from smoking pot.
ROFLMAO! You are kidding, right?

Quote:
As an Ex-marijuana abuser, I have to say that I would still support the legalization of the "drug".

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#171078 - 10/04/07 04:00 PM Re: Marijuana legalize it?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally posted by Desert_Rat

Pot kills....

...entire pizzas.

[LOL] Thanks for bringing this topic to a lighter side...and reminding me to order a couple ham and pineapple stuffed crusts.

Of course I will have them delivered. [Smoking]

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