WOW....
Had to read that post 3 times, Madman..by far your most objective and rational post to date.

I am actually enjoying this Debate between 2 people with opposite views that can articulate in a way that is rare in todays modern society. Well done Gentlemen, I have no say in this debate as Marijuana in Canada can be smoked,grown,sold freely without any form of prosecution.

Again, thumbs up to both of ya

Why? Because they sold pot? If they weren't selling it to children, and they weren't committing violent or otherwise "victim" crimes in the commission of growing or selling pot, why do they belong there? The pot's got to come from somewhere. If you look at the history of pot politics in this country, it becomes painfully obvious that the government's policies have been severely reactionary.

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What propaganda have you been reading that states misdemeanor pot offenses result in hard prison sentences? In Iran petty marijuana users may get prison sentences. It doesn't happen here. People caught with a joint or a small bag don't do serious prison time.

Do you have any idea how small an amount of marijuana you need to possess to be charged with Intent To Distribute? Try looking it up sometime. There are thousands of people in prison who will remain there for a long time because they smoke a lot of weed. Some of them are people who are dying, and will not see freedom until they are shipped out in a casket.

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Some may spend some time in the lockup waiting to appear before a judge, but then again if you want to smoke pot... don't do it in public and don't act like an asshole in interactions with the police. Some stoners don't seem to grasp that concept. Maybe that is why they are stoners.

I'd agree that discretion is key in avoiding confrontation with police, but that's not the issue here. The issue here is that the justice system has overstepped its bounds. Pot smokers shouldn't be in lockup for smoking pot.

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If some users have been caught up in the "three strikes" laws of some states, I've already stated those laws need to revisited and rewritten.

Whatever.

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Everything else you have written in your previous post is nothing but complete dismissal and bordering on ad hominem.

Pot, meet kettle. You'll have no sympathy from anyone on this board in your defense of ad hominem attacks against you. You are a purveyor of fallacy, and ad hominem is your best offense.

I completely dismissed your points because they have no merit. Try writing something reasonable, and I'll be happy to consider your opinion.

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You refuse to debate any specific points brought into this debate or any peripheral or similar type scenarios brought into the argument that have been posed by people not on your side of the debate.

I felt I've held my own in this debate. If you cannot understand the points I've made, well, there's really no sense in my spoonfeeding them to you. I have a very basic argument against marijuana laws, one I believe has not been addressed with reason, but with scare tactics and fear mongering. We're a little past the dire warnings of Reefer Madness, don't you think?

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You do nothing but dismiss everything. It seems you do it based solely on the fact that you smoke pot and therefore think your habit should be legal.

Madman, today in L.A. the sky was a gorgeous shade of blue. Or was it? Maybe I'm telling you the sky was blue because I like blue skies...maybe I'm purporting my blueskyist propaganda here on this board right now, trying to convince everyone that my desired color of sky is the true sky color. Maybe I just don't see the reality, that maybe the sky is blood red, and my blueskyist tendencies have skewed my vision.

Or maybe the sky was just fucking blue.

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The biggest thing you dismiss is the fact that the general public does not want pot to be legalized. All pot users ignore that fact.

Do you not understand the basic precepts of Justice and Law? Jesus, for a "former law enforcement officer", you sure don't know that much about the law. I'm not talking about referendum. I don't care if 99% of the American public thinks pot should stay illegal. Justice does not (or at least should not) be swayed by public opinion, which is pendulous and fickle at best, and dangerously unstable at worst. Justice is not about mob rule or even majority rule. Justice is about fairness. Justice is about keeping our laws within the precepts of the Constitution.

Marijuana laws are not fair, nor do they find ethical or moral shelter in the Constitution. They are reactionary, draconian measures based on a dark history of special interest hype, pandering to distorted public perceptions, fear-mongering, and lack of regulability. They are a blight on our justice system, and we are all the worse for it.

I keep hearing over and over again that the majority of Americans want it to remain illegal.

You got any numbers on that one? Each time the medical referendum has come up in Arizona and California, it's passed. It passed in Arizona by over 60% both times and both times it was killed in the courts. I can't speak for other states, but I believe this to be a false statement.

As for Stone...he's been around here since the beginning. He, like myself, had a former run-in with the previous site owner and got banned for a while Ah, those were the days. BTW, he's also an ex cop. Hmmmm.

Let's talk about schools and kids. I have a teen with a drug problem. It's one of the worst things you'll ever go through as a parent, and no amount of coaching and direction you can provide as parents makes a difference in some cases. Arrests, fines, legal expenses, rehab....I know the whole routine, and yet I'm still for legalization. Why? Because the shit is easily obtainable regardless. The difference is there's not regulation or quality control on the shit they get in schools. I've spent many, many evenings in Intensive Outpatient therapy with a group of teens with drug issues. I was shocked to learn how many heroin addicts were in these sessions.

While I'm not that concerned about pot, the other drugs that are easy to get in schools scare me - how do you know what you're getting? Are you getting an LSD tab with a load of strycchnine on it? Are you getting Heroin or Coke cut with something else? What if they got the meth recipe wrong? Kids can and do die. At least if this shit were legalized, there would be manufacture standards and you'd know that a dangerous drug is at least clean. That might not come as much of a relief, but the bottom line is this shit is available. Anyone who wants it can get it now, and users are not concerened with legality.

None of this shit should be legal for kids. The drinking age is 21, yet how many here waited until legal age to drink? You can do the best you can with your kids in defining what they should and shouldn't do, but peer pressure is a stronger influence than parenting; I don't care how good your kids are. All you can give to your kids are the tools to make good decisions.

Having your own kids go through this shit rips your heart out. On the other hand, the legality issues....those don't help. Throw a kid in jail and he'll probably learn it's a place where he doesn't want to be, but the downside is that you've put something on his record at age 18 that'll be there hindering his opportunities for the rest of his life. I'm sorry, but that's bullshit if it's just a pot bust. In Arizona, possession of any amount of pot will net you at least 2 class 6 felonies. You'll get possession for whatever quantity you have, and whatever it's stored in (a bag, a rolling paper, a pipe - etc.) is another charge - possession of drug paraphenalia. These laws are too harsh when you consider the crime.

As for consenting adults, a lifestyle choice should not be a crime.

To Shahram's point, NYMM, by your logic, you should have turned yourself in for smoking. You think whomever you got that from (probably one of your friends) is, by definition, a drug dealer, and in your own words, you think he deserves to be locked up. Think about what you're saying. If I do it occasionally, it's OK, but other people should be treated as criminals for it.

What makes you, the few time user, any better than the chronic user who comes home after work and lights up and rides the high until he goes to bed? Who are you to judge anyone? Why should our government, or anyone else care what he does?

Sure, if he gets in the car and drives stoned out of his gourd, then he's subject to DUI laws just like a drunk. I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing for legalization that doesn't also agree that people need to still be responsible for their actions.

NYMM, thanks for the props. I'm right there with you on the political threads usually, but on this one, we're way off. I think you need to re-read some of the things you've said and reconsider your position.

Part of the problem with your statement is that you are equating legalization of pot with the medical marijuana issue. They are separate issues.

While much of the public probably would support medical marijuana, they would not support complete legalization of marijuana.

I'll go even a step further. I would say the majority of support for legalizing pot comes from white middle class and upper middle class people.

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Let's talk about schools and kids. I have a teen with a drug problem. It's one of the worst things you'll ever go through as a parent, and no amount of coaching and direction you can provide as parents makes a difference in some cases. Arrests, fines, legal expenses, rehab....I know the whole routine, and yet I'm still for legalization. Why? Because the shit is easily obtainable regardless. The difference is there's not regulation or quality control on the shit they get in schools. I've spent many, many evenings in Intensive Outpatient therapy with a group of teens with drug issues. I was shocked to learn how many heroin addicts were in these sessions.

While I'm not that concerned about pot, the other drugs that are easy to get in schools scare me - how do you know what you're getting? Are you getting an LSD tab with a load of strycchnine on it? Are you getting Heroin or Coke cut with something else? What if they got the meth recipe wrong? Kids can and do die. At least if this shit were legalized, there would be manufacture standards and you'd know that a dangerous drug is at least clean. That might not come as much of a relief, but the bottom line is this shit is available. Anyone who wants it can get it now, and users are not concerened with legality.

Considering what you have gone through, I find your position on this subject somewhat surprising.

Of course users are not concerned about legality. However, legality and more availability will create more users.

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Having your own kids go through this shit rips your heart out. On the other hand, the legality issues....those don't help. Throw a kid in jail and he'll probably learn it's a place where he doesn't want to be, but the downside is that you've put something on his record at age 18 that'll be there hindering his opportunities for the rest of his life. I'm sorry, but that's bullshit if it's just a pot bust. In Arizona, possession of any amount of pot will net you at least 2 class 6 felonies. You'll get possession for whatever quantity you have, and whatever it's stored in (a bag, a rolling paper, a pipe - etc.) is another charge - possession of drug paraphenalia. These laws are too harsh when you consider the crime.

I don't know what the laws are in Arizona, but here in NY pot is not handled the same way as other drugs. In some circumstances it is a felony, but people with small amounts for personal use receive misdemeanor charges.

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To Shahram's point, NYMM, by your logic, you should have turned yourself in for smoking. You think whomever you got that from (probably one of your friends) is, by definition, a drug dealer, and in your own words, you think he deserves to be locked up. Think about what you're saying. If I do it occasionally, it's OK, but other people should be treated as criminals for it.

When I was young I knew a couple of guys who dealt pot. If they had gotten caught, I wouldn't have felt sorry for them. You want to play, you have to be prepared to pay.

I wouldn't consider myself a criminal for smoking a joint. Yes, I broke the law. I committed a misdemeanor offense. I'm sure it wasn't the only criminal offense I committed as a kid either.

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What makes you, the few time user, any better than the chronic user who comes home after work and lights up and rides the high until he goes to bed? Who are you to judge anyone? Why should our government, or anyone else care what he does?

It makes me better because I don't have a drug dependency.

People who smoke pot on a daily basis can lie to themselves until the cows come home, but they have an addiction. They are drug addicts.

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NYMM, thanks for the props. I'm right there with you on the political threads usually, but on this one, we're way off. I think you need to re-read some of the things you've said and reconsider your position.

I don't need to reconsider my position on the subject. I think the law is fine as it stands. I think marijuana should remain a Schedule I drug and remain illegal.

Yes, we will just have to agree to disagree regarding this subject.

In Arizona you would be a multiple felon. Still think the laws make sense? Do you think the punishment fits the crime?

Are you saying that in Arizona if a cop witnesses some dude smoking a joint on a park bench... it is a felony?

Not one felony, but two. One for possession and another for possession of paraphenalia (the paper it's rolled in).

Thank you ex Gov Mecham for that one..

A friend of mine escaped the double felony and took a misdemeanor, as the joint wasn't rolled, and there was less than a gram of marijuana. However, that misdemeanor also cost almost $1300, 6 mos summary probation, and 72 hours community service.
Uhh, my friend was mad..

I would say that maybe Arizona might need to change their laws and policy to be more in line with what it is here in NY.

Here if the guy on the bench smoking a joint had no other weed, no outstanding warrants, and acted respectfully, he would in most cases receive a desk appearance ticket and be charged with criminal possession which is a misdemeanor.

The guy could also be taken into custody and put through the system but that is also contingent on the political policy of the current administration and their handling of desk appearance tickets and so-called "quality of life" crimes. For example in the early years of the Guiliani administration he most likely would have gone to central booking and through the system.

What do you typically get for a misdeminor?

Well, again, by your logic, NYMM, that law is the will of the people. There's no such thing as an approach (be it fines for possession or legalization of marijuana) that could just be a passion for an overzealous politician. Kinda reminds me of another overzealous political notion: the war on drugs itself.

Just because something is law doesn't necessarily mean the majority support it.

I say if more people actually knew what those penalties were, I'd bet the majority would say the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Hey Madman, just for the record, I'm not new to XOC.

Shoot I go back farther than Carlton and most everybody else.

Not that it matters...

So what is the punishment for a misdeminor??

HEY STONE !!!

Hey Marshall what is going on!!!!

In Illinois it takes 30+grams of weed to make it a felony. Paraphernalia is also a misd. I would give them a summons for court and likely they would just receive a fine. Just info on Illinois.

The punishment for a misdemeanor depends on the circumstances and class of misdemeanor of which you are charged.

For example if you get caught with a bag of weed that has more than 25 grams of pot, that is a Class B misdemeanor. Technically you could do 90 days in a 'pound you in the ass' correctional facility like Riker's Island. More than two ounces is a Class A misdemeanor which could bring one year in jail.

First time offenders normally wouldn't go to jail. They would be fined and something like community service would be negotiated.

The guy smoking a joint on the park bench would pay a fine and quite possibly have his case adjourned and if he stayed out of trouble for a year the case would be dismissed.

Large amounts of pot possession are felonies.

How petty offenses are handled by police most definitely do have a lot to do with the current political climate and whoever is the boss. As I said before it means the difference between a desk appearance ticket and going through the system and spending time in a filthy lockup waiting to appear before a judge.

The rest is up to the judges and the District Attorney's office. Prosecutors here in NY probably have more flexibility regarding marijuana related crimes then in some other states.

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Just because something is law doesn't necessarily mean the majority support it.

It also doesn't mean they don't.

I don't see any public outcry or movement to make marijuana legal. I'm not talking about medical marijuana, I'm talking about legalizing it.

I don't even see any public outcry to have pot removed as a Schedule I drug by the feds. That would have to occur first.

Other than pothead organizations like NORML, there is absolutely no movement to make pot legal.

Do you see a public outcry to legalize pot?

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I say if more people actually knew what those penalties were, I'd bet the majority would say the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

How harshly is pot handled in your state? I've already said that here in NYC people who commit petty marjuana offenses don't do time.

I think most people already know that if you are caught dealing pot or are caught with a large quantity, you are most likely looking at doing some time. I don't think too many people really care about those types of people.

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Originally posted by stone:

Hey Madman, just for the record, I'm not new to XOC.

Shoot I go back farther than Carlton and most everybody else.

Not that it matters...

I didn't know that. Your handle wasn't familiar and I saw you only had about 40 posts.

In that case, welcome back to XOC.

Alright, which one of you stoners in California has the real name Clifford Schaffer:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292799,00.html

Why is it that state & local governments pass stuff only to have the feds step in and try to circumvent and undo it?

The people have spoken time and time again, yet the feds want to ignore that and march to a different drum We vote for stuff on a state not federal level yet they want to take precedent. What ever happen to govt by the people?

Well... Actually state and local governments cannot pass laws that contravene the constitution, federal statutes and even US treaties.

It's called the "supremacy clause" in the constitution...

Article VI, (Clause 2)

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

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The people have spoken time and time again, yet the feds want to ignore that and march to a different drum We vote for stuff on a state not federal level yet they want to take precedent. What ever happen to govt by the people?

I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to in the above statement. Some states have passed medical marijuana laws such as your state's Prop 215. Maybe that is what you are referring to regarding the people haven spoken. However, that is not legalization.

Some states have "decriminalized" possession of small amounts of marijuana. But it is still illegal.

No state can completely legalize marijuana. There would have to be a change at the federal level first in order for any state laws regarding pot to be valid.

There was a vote in Congress last week regarding pot. There was a bill introduced to stop the DEA from making raids on the so-called "medical marijuana" operations in states that have passed medical marijuana laws. The bill was defeated.

NY Madman, in your opinion, what are the benefits of keeping it illegal?

The biggest one for me is keeping the number of stoned people driving to a minimum, and harsher penalties for those who are stoned and drive.

Now lest I appear as a total anti-drug nut, I am a strong believer in medical marijuana - I had a friend go through bladder cancer, and the chemo was the absolute pits. He would get so nauseous that he couldn't even get up off the floor. It was enough to make me sick just watching him. But if he lit up a pipe and took a few hits, the nauseousness would pass and he could pretty much feel normal (well, as normal as one can feel with that poisonous shit in your veins - definitely a case where the cure is almost worse than the disease).

All it takes to have your attitude changed about medical marijuana is have someone you care about benefit from it in a significant way. I still have arguments with my parents about this :rolleyes:

There is no evidence that leads to this belief. I'd be willing to be cell phones and sleepiness cause WAY more traffic accidents than pot.

That's a valid question, so I will try to give as honest an answer as I could provide.

I'm sure most has been covered over the multiple pages of this thread.

Keeping pot illegal, keeps many people from becoming potheads. Even though pot is available on the streets, an individual still has to go out and seek the product.

The argument that pot is currently widely available and anyone who wants to smoke it will find it, is a very flawed argument. Government legalization will increase the percentage of the population who indulge in the drug.

I've already stated that most people in this thread are basing their opinions on their own personal experiences. Most people in this thread are middle class and upper middle class white people. They have absolutely no idea what a drug such as marijuana does to non-white and non-middle class people and their neighborhoods and so-called "communities".

Most people who argue in favor of marijuana have never even been in a really bad urban ghetto neighborhood. Most would completely piss their pants if they were ever dropped off in such an area.

You don't see many serious black leaders advocating for the legalization of pot... or any drug for that matter. The entire legalization movement consists of mainly white people and left wing radicals (which can also constitute many people of color, but aren't indicative of their racial groups as a whole).

The increase of the Hispanic population is also increasing demand for the product and may also be influencing the debate considering much of the product that comes from Hispanic sources.

""They have absolutely no idea what a drug such as marijuana does to non-white and non-middle class people and their neighborhoods and so-called "communities"."

[Steps away and distances himself from Madman.]

And I WAS going to quote the reason you think it should be illegal is that it will make people potheads. I laughed and laughed at that.

And then I saw the most inappropriate racial comment I've seen in some time and went with that.....

You just don't get it, stone. Madman's not a racist, he was merely implying that the poor and non-white don't have the mental capacity to self-regulate, and that's why it's up to the government to make decisions for them. If you don't agree with that, then you must be ignorant of what it's like in a real city.