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#202364 - 06/05/05 07:51 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
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Wow Tonka, I couldn't have said it better ... agree totally with you as that is my opinoin more or less ... people spend so much time trying to change things for themselves thinking that the world should revolve around their wants or beliefs or religion or whatever ... what gives you the right to say your religious beliefs or whatever are better then someone elses? ... just cause the western world was built on "christian" values and beleifs and is still for the majority populated by people following those beleifs doesn't mean it should change for small groups of people within the populus who think their shit don't stank ... just get over yourself people, there are more important things in life

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#202365 - 06/05/05 07:53 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
There will be no moral values allowed in this country! If you mention the bible or God, you will be ridiculed. The family as you know it is a thing of the past. This is what the liberals want.

Do not let them bully you out of your thoughts. They wonder why Bush won? Maybe they need to look at themselves. This country is getting tired of accepting every deviant behavior known to man. Hell, there are even freaks who think that Michael (child toucher) Jackson should be allowed to do what he does, it's his right. Give me a break!
Holy shit!

What in the world does the bible have to do with gays in the Military?

We are discussing Military law/policy. For those of us who realize what country/century we're in, there's a little thing call separation of church and state.

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#202366 - 06/05/05 07:55 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
Do you realize that the moral values established in the evil book (The Bible for those non-liberals reading)are the values that this country was founded on?
If that were true, it'd be one thing. But it's not.

Quote:
Don't you think it's ironic that our money and government buildings all say "in God we trust"?
Funny how that wasn't there when the country was founded, eh?

Quote:
I never said my religion was better than others, but to have no religion as a moral compass, I believe is trouble.
There are some religions that don't have a problem with it. And they are doing just fine in the morals department.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#202367 - 06/05/05 07:55 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


It all goes back to fear of change, which is something conservatives (who don't like it) and liberals (who sometimes want too much, too fast) have been struggling with since the beginning.

It also speaks to people's fear of the unknown, and not wanting to know. However, if people would just open their eyes just a little bit to see the bigger picture, that not everyone lives their life based on their sexual orientation, the world would be better off. I'm obviously not saying it must be accepted by everyone, I'm just saying people need to become better educated about the topics at hand, before getting all high and mighty about it.

As shocking as this may be, there are homosexuals who go to church and believe in God; however, who don't believe in the "all or nothing" mentality that some people who follow religion believe.

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#202368 - 06/05/05 07:55 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
For those of us who realize what country/century we're in there's a little thing call separation of church and state
Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...

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#202369 - 06/05/05 07:56 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Almost all the same arguments as when blacks were segregated in the military.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#202370 - 06/05/05 08:12 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Hoppy:
Quote:
For those of us who realize what country/century we're in there's a little thing call separation of church and state
Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...
Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....

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#202371 - 06/05/05 09:28 AM Re: Gays in the Military
jerseydevi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 1299
Loc: Yorktown, VA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hoppy:
[b]
Quote:
For those of us who realize what country/century we're in there's a little thing call separation of church and state
Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...
Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....[/b]
sorry kiddo, that is what makes up who I am and why I have the opinion I do. Nice try to force my faith out of me. When you make comments like that that try to force people out of thier belief systems, you are the one that sounds ignorant. I at least vote and respond based on my beliefs.

Also, seperation of church and state is only in reference to a state (country) supported religion. What you left wingers fail to grasp is that the government is not forcing anyone to choose a religion or belief system, but that enough of this country is christian, and is tired of having it's value system be the one that gets trampled. As a result, we are voting for people with like ideas. If you don't like it, get some representation of your beliefs elected.

(I'm now waiting for the insulting, fact-free rebuttal that I know is coming)
_________________________
jerseydevi1
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " -Thomas Jefferson

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#202372 - 06/05/05 10:15 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Origami Gangsta Offline
Member

Registered: 24/05/01
Posts: 6497
Loc: Dammit! Even CLOSER to Smith a...
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....
Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more false. The 11 states that voted to outlaw homosexual marriage proved that, amongst other things.
_________________________
This is how you post whore..

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#202373 - 06/05/05 10:42 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Tonka Ross Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2397
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
This is sweet

_________________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

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#202374 - 06/05/05 10:54 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Digityzed:
It also speaks to people's fear of the unknown, and not wanting to know. However, if people would just open their eyes just a little bit to see the bigger picture, that not everyone lives their life based on their sexual orientation, the world would be better off. I'm obviously not saying it must be accepted by everyone, I'm just saying people need to become better educated about the topics at hand, before getting all high and mighty about it.

As shocking as this may be, there are homosexuals who go to church and believe in God; however, who don't believe in the "all or nothing" mentality that some people who follow religion believe.
OK, Mr. Gay Enlightenment. Educate us then. Explain this whole "unknown" element to me. I'm surrounded by gays EVERY DAY for the past 12 years at my job. I've even been to their social functions, and God knows why, but I've even been into a gay bar and watched the shennanigans. What else do I need to be EDUCATED on? Do I need to know exactly what it feels like to have a dick in my ass?

Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere.

I'm sure the next thing we'll hear is that looking at kiddie porn is OK too as long as no kids get hurt. It'll be OK because the guy was born that way - born to be turned on when he sees a naked 5 year old. What's the difference?

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#202375 - 06/05/05 11:15 AM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
OK, Mr. Gay Enlightenment. Educate us then. Explain this whole "unknown" element to me. I'm surrounded by gays EVERY DAY for the past 12 years at my job. I've even been to their social functions, and God knows why, but I've even been into a gay bar and watched the shennanigans. What else do I need to be EDUCATED on? Do I need to know exactly what it feels like to have a dick in my ass?

Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere.

I'm sure the next thing we'll hear is that looking at kiddie porn is OK too as long as no kids get hurt. It'll be OK because the guy was born that way - born to be turned on when he sees a naked 5 year old. What's the difference?
"What's the difference?"

Hold on a minute there, pal. You can not be serious in making the accusation that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing. Obviously you haven't been as educated as you claim to be on this subject, oh enlightened one. There's a BIG, BIG difference.

Just because you're "surrounded" by gays at your job, does not mean you actually know anything about them as a person. You know how you get to know someone? TALK to them. What a concept, huh?

So you've been to a gay bar. Um, good for you? [Uh Oh !]

"Go pimp your disgusting values elsewhere." It'd be interesting to see you say the same things to a gay person when not hiding behind a computer screen. Just for the record, I'm not preaching anything. Preaching would be, "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it." I don't expect people to accept me. I've just been very lucky to have friends and family around me who do, because they're open-minded enough to not think of me as less of a person becasuse I'm gay.

Finally, I'm not going to start personally attacking someone, and calling them "disgusting", based on their private life. I'm above that.

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#202376 - 06/05/05 12:06 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Hoppy:
[b]
quote:
For those of us who realize what country/century we're in there's a little thing call separation of church and state
Those two things can never be totally separated because no one will leave their beliefs out of topics such as this one ...
Newsflash:

They are separated.

Have been since the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

If you can't keep them separated, perhaps you should refrain from political debates. It makes it sound like you don't understand what's being discussed.....[/b]
sorry kiddo.......[/b]
This country was founded on freeedom. Not on forcing our values on others. That's what Bible-toters like you fail to grasp.

Those who join the Military give up certain rights for the good of the organization.

Specifically, their freedoms are significantly curtailed in the first amendment. (try telling your commander to "fuck off" sometime)

Things that would just get you fired or reprimanded in the civilian world will get you thrown in jail in the Army. The military has regulations and their own laws for good reasons.

War is a crazy enough place without everybody needing to throw their sexuality into the mix.....

.

Hey JerseyDevi1

Just out of curiosity, have you ever served?

Because if some of you hypocrytes would put down your Bibles long enough to fight in the war you love so much, maybe it could finally end.

I think it's hilarious that the biggest Bible-thumpers advocate all this killing when Jesus was anti-war. So perhaps it's time to start reading it (the Bible) instead of using it as a political weapon.

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#202377 - 06/05/05 12:34 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Talk to them? I talk to them every day. I went to that bar with friends I had that happened to be gay.

You're getting me wrong. I'm not going to dislike someone solely based on the premise they're gay. What I am saying is that it's not natural and I don't see where it's appropriate to go around making everyone believe it's normal and OK. Because I strongly disagree with your sexual orientation doesn't mean I can't get past that with the individual. I tried to understand it. I don't.

Be gay. Go sodomize the entire San Francisco 49ers franchise for all I care. Just respect the wishes of heteros who don't want to and don't want their kids exposed to it.

BTW, Digitized, I have no problem telling you to pimp your disgusting values right to your face. You can tell me I'm full of shit if you'd like. Show up on one of the large 4x4 events I put on each year if you'd like. (AZ Run VI), March of 2006 is the next one, or come wheeling in Arizona ANY TIME and I'll show you our trails. I'm not "hiding" anywhere.

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#202378 - 06/05/05 12:38 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Mobycat Offline
Member
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
I've even been to their social functions, and God knows why, but I've even been into a gay bar and watched the shennanigans.
What, those kind of shennanigans don't happen at straight bars?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...don't get out much, do you.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#202379 - 06/05/05 12:40 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
What you left wingers fail to grasp is that the government is not forcing anyone to choose a religion or belief system, but that enough of this country is christian, and is tired of having it's value system be the one that gets trampled.
What you right wingers fail to grasp is nobody is trying to trample your religion or belief system - as long as it's NOT on government property - you know, the same property that EVERYONE, even atheists, own.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#202380 - 06/05/05 12:45 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah, Mobycat, but it's different wathcing a bunch of guys slow dance with eachother, tongue wrestling, and grabbing at each other's packages.

[Uh Oh !]

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#202381 - 06/05/05 12:47 PM Re: Gays in the Military
jerseydevi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 1299
Loc: Yorktown, VA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
[QUOTE]

Hey JerseyDevi1

Just out of curiosity, have you ever served?

Because if some of you hypocrytes would put down your Bibles long enough to fight in the war you love so much, maybe it could finally end.

I think it's hilarious that the biggest Bible-thumpers advocate all this killing when Jesus was anti-war. So perhaps it's time to start reading it (the Bible) instead of using it as a political weapon.
Couldn't serve, I had heart surgery when I was a child. Tried to, and they turned me away. What about you?

What killing did I advocate? Helping to protect those who can't protect themselves? Ridding the world of another tyrant? Yeah, those are terrible things we are doing. I did read the bible, and while I can't remember the exact passage, I do remember Jesus talking about helping those who can't help themselves. Maybe those who fear the Bible like you should be the ones to read it, instead of trying to tell us what you think is in there?
_________________________
jerseydevi1
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " -Thomas Jefferson

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#202382 - 06/05/05 12:50 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
What I am saying is that it's not natural and I don't see where it's appropriate to go around making everyone believe it's normal and OK.
I'm not MAKING anyone believe anything, am I?

And if you'd honestly ever get the chance to say to someone's face that you think they're behavior is "disgusting", I weep for your children.

Oh and Desert_Rat, once you find out what "normal" is, you be sure to let the rest of us know, ok? [LOL]

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#202383 - 06/05/05 12:52 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Tonka Ross Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2397
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
What killing did I advocate? Helping to protect those who can't protect themselves? Ridding the world of another tyrant? Yeah, those are terrible things we are doing.
You got that right. Didn't they used to vote with these?

_________________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

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#202384 - 06/05/05 12:54 PM Re: Gays in the Military
jerseydevi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 1299
Loc: Yorktown, VA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
[b]What you left wingers fail to grasp is that the government is not forcing anyone to choose a religion or belief system, but that enough of this country is christian, and is tired of having it's value system be the one that gets trampled.
What you right wingers fail to grasp is nobody is trying to trample your religion or belief system - as long as it's NOT on government property - you know, the same property that EVERYONE, even atheists, own.[/b]
There's your problem, you don't realize that it is public, and therefore able to be used by all. Put your atheist beliefs up right next to it, but as long as the government is not lining up the citizens to go to church, there is nothing wrong with a 10 commandments display, or a menorah, or the koran. NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BELIEVE.
_________________________
jerseydevi1
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " -Thomas Jefferson

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#202385 - 06/05/05 12:57 PM Re: Gays in the Military
jerseydevi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 1299
Loc: Yorktown, VA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Tonka Ross:
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
[b]What killing did I advocate? Helping to protect those who can't protect themselves? Ridding the world of another tyrant? Yeah, those are terrible things we are doing.
You got that right. Didn't they used to vote with these?

[/b]
why yes, I believe they did!
_________________________
jerseydevi1
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " -Thomas Jefferson

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#202386 - 06/05/05 01:26 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Andre the Giant Offline
Member

Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
Yeah, Mobycat, but it's different wathcing a bunch of guys slow dance with eachother, tongue wrestling, and grabbing at each other's packages.

[Uh Oh !]
It may be different, but #1 you didn't have to go to the bar, #2 you weren't forced to participate.

My wife and I went to a gay bar a few Halloweens back. It was different, but the interaction was actually much more tame than going to the "meat market" college bars around town. I had the courage... or more like the necessity, to use the bathroom. I half expected some sort of freak show in there but much to my surprise, people were... well... using the bathroom for it's intended purpose.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals... but the issue of gays in the military is a difficult one. How can you publicly integrate gays without destroying the unit's interaction? When the bullets start flying, I imagine homosexuals would fight just as well as heteros. But leading up to that point, there would be a lot of strife... gonads and strife..... laugh
_________________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.
--Frank Zappa

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#202387 - 06/05/05 01:29 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Tonka Ross Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2397
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
Originally posted by Andre the Giant:
...there would be a lot of strife... gonads and strife..... laugh
Don't tempt me, dude laugh
_________________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

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#202388 - 06/05/05 01:31 PM Re: Gays in the Military
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by jerseydevi1:
There's your problem, you don't realize that it is public, and therefore able to be used by all.
Yes, public. And SHARED by all.

Quote:
Put your atheist beliefs up right next to it,
Show me one town that is going to allow someone to put up a sign that says, "There is no God."

Quote:
but as long as the government is not lining up the citizens to go to church, there is nothing wrong with a 10 commandments display, or a menorah, or the koran. NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BELIEVE.
And nobody is forcing you NOT to believe by removing the Ten Commandments. Nor does it affect your ability to believe. If it does, I'd say it has more to do with your ability to believe than said belief. Does removing the Ten Commandments make you doubt? Nah...don't think so. Why not put them in your front yard?
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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