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#203229 - 28/04/03 08:10 AM Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Sean Offline
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Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2089
Loc: Billerica, MA
Over 130 brave U.S. troops have died so far removing Saddam and attempting to establish a secular government in Iraq, yet we have to put up with this bullshit at home:

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=030428&cat=news&st=newscourtcommandmen tsdc

These people in Kentucky should be ashamed of themselves.

:rolleyes:
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#203230 - 28/04/03 09:18 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
X-Yotaluva Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 158
Loc: Rural Hall, NC
The law only means something if it supports your beliefs?

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#203231 - 28/04/03 09:44 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
The ACLU should be ashamed of itself.

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#203232 - 28/04/03 09:45 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Todrick Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 7759
Loc: Arizona
NYMadman should be ashamed of himself

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#203233 - 28/04/03 09:54 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Todrick:

NYMadman should be ashamed of himself
You should be ashamed of yourself. Shouldn't you be looking for a job?

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#203234 - 28/04/03 09:56 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
TravelingFool Offline
Member

Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
The whole Church/State argument really makes me tired. Samuel Thompson wrote something that really summed up the way I personally feel about it. What it boils down to is, if I (as a Christian) can go to work everyday and tolerate a large group of Muslims who wash their feet in the break-room so they can lay out their prayer mats and pray to the Mecca of the East or whatever, two or three times per day... then the athiests and other people out there can tolerate a 30 second prayer before a local high school football game.

Here's the whole text, for those who care enough to read it:

Samuel Thompson wrote:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt.
According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.

So what would you expect --somebody chanting Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call.
One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules!

It's time we tell them, you don;t have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right..but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away ... we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN! After all ... the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...

May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up..... In God WE Trust
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#203235 - 28/04/03 10:07 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:

The whole Church/State argument really makes me tired. Samuel Thompson wrote something that really summed up the way I personally feel about it. What it boils down to is, if I (as a Christian) can go to work everyday and tolerate a large group of Muslims who wash their feet in the break-room so they can lay out their prayer mats and pray to the Mecca of the East or whatever, two or three times per day... then the athiests and other people out there can tolerate a 30 second prayer before a local high school football
The thing about this is the ACLU will defend Muslims right to get their drivers license picture taken with veils covering their faces... all in the name of religious expression.

There is an all out war against Judeo/Christianity in this country by the left. Everything else seems to be fine with them.

The ACLU is anti-American and Clinton put one of them on the Supreme Court.

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#203236 - 28/04/03 10:29 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Todrick Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 7759
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Todrick:

NYMadman should be ashamed of himself
You should be ashamed of yourself. Shouldn't you be looking for a job?
[Freak]

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#203237 - 28/04/03 10:32 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
I agree the ACLU is anti-ameriCan. But it still does not change the fact that this display should NOT be on a government/state facility/grounds. You have to go all the way with the "seperation" issue or the lines become too blurred. But common sense should rule out in the end one would hope. Just my opinion.

smile
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#203238 - 28/04/03 11:28 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Sean Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2089
Loc: Billerica, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:

The whole Church/State argument really makes me tired. Samuel Thompson wrote something that really summed up the way I personally feel about it. What it boils down to is, if I (as a Christian) can go to work everyday and tolerate a large group of Muslims who wash their feet in the break-room so they can lay out their prayer mats and pray to the Mecca of the East or whatever, two or three times per day... then the athiests and other people out there can tolerate a 30 second prayer before a local high school football game.
I understand your argument here, but people have to start looking at the bigger picture here. Religion should TOTALLY be removed from public schools/universities, PERIOD. No praying to Mecca, no Catholic prayers in the morning, NOTHING, it's a SCHOOL not a church. One goes to school/university to better themselves in business/computers/math/medicine (you get the picture), so if one wants to better themselves in a religious sense, go to a RELIGIOUS SCHOOL.
_________________________
Ned Flanders: "Some people say being a cave man is old fashioned, then I guess I'm just a cave man...if they existed....which they didn't."

My Former 2001 Xterra SE 4x4 With Modifications

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#203239 - 28/04/03 11:28 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Griffin2020 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 1328
Loc: D/FW Metroplex, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by mbflyerfan:
I agree the ACLU is anti-ameriCan. But it still does not change the fact that this display should NOT be on a government/state facility/grounds. You have to go all the way with the "seperation" issue or the lines become too blurred. But common sense should rule out in the end one would hope. Just my opinion.

smile
I see that you are unclear on the concept,MBflyerfan. It is a fact that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, and many of our laws are based on biblical tenents. The only thing that seperation of church and state really means is that our government will not require us to participate in a state sponsored religion, just as freedom of speech has nothing to do with not having to face the consequences of your speech.
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#203240 - 28/04/03 11:45 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
No, I am very clear on what the constitution says about seperation of church and state. Any time you put anything like The Ten Commandments on state property, it can be construed as state sanctioning for said religion. I always viewed the law as not for sanctioning participation, but for not preferring one type of religion over another so that the non-preferred religion becomes discriminated against. I am not saying its right or wrong. Common sense would tell me that it is just 10 basic rules on morality. Nothing more, nothing less. But as I said previous, the line is blurred, and since it COULD be construed as such, it should be taken down. Even if it only offends a minority of people, our laws were constructed to protect the minority from the majority. As I said, just an opinion. smile
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#203241 - 28/04/03 11:51 AM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Where exactly is this law written that states "separation from church and state?"

Check out these sites to gain a better grasp on the whole debate.

Fallacy

Seperation

Myth

What Law?

Jeremiah

Christian Answers

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#203242 - 28/04/03 12:09 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
No its reads more like, shall make no law establishing a state religion or make a law prohibiting exercising of such. I am paraphrasing from memory. I didnt read your links because I couldnt get to them. Its all subject to interpretation.

Do I think having a stone tablet with the commandments on it is offensive to me as an atheist? No. Truth is truth regardless of where you believe it came from. Do I think the ACLU is a misguided bunch of Dukakis loving, treehugging, moon maidens, you bet. Both sides can say, "whats the big deal?", from both sides of the argument, and they will both mean it in completely opposite ways. But I still think the line is blurred, and I would err on the side of caution.
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#203243 - 28/04/03 12:18 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by mbflyerfan:
No its reads more like, shall make no law establishing a state religion or make a law prohibiting exercising of such. I am paraphrasing from memory. I didnt read your links because I couldnt get to them. Its all subject to interpretation.

Do I think having a stone tablet with the commandments on it is offensive to me as an atheist? No. Truth is truth regardless of where you believe it came from. Do I think the ACLU is a misguided bunch of Dukakis loving, treehugging, moon maidens, you bet. Both sides can say, "whats the big deal?", from both sides of the argument, and they will both mean it in completely opposite ways. But I still think the line is blurred, and I would err on the side of caution.
Yes, I believe the whole first admendment is up for interpretation. But no where, and I mean no where, is there a Federal law stating "separation of church and state."

I believe they wanted the freedom to practice any form of Christianity they wanted. I believe they did not want any religious leaders of any faith having any role in politics. (Watch the movie "The Three Musketeers" to see why)

Having the Ten Commandments on the wall is no big deal. Yes, our government did legislate many of our laws based on the Bible. Be honest here, as an Atheist, do you really take offense to seeing them there? Do you really take offense that moment of silent prayer is allowed in school? They have the right to pray. You have the right not to. Stand or sit there and think of ways to pass your pro-weed bills.

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#203244 - 28/04/03 12:18 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Sean Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2089
Loc: Billerica, MA
Let's look at this closer:

"shall make no law establishing a state religion or make a law prohibiting exercising of such"

If one were to see any religious statue/cross in front of a PUBLIC building (paid for by the public tax payers), wouldn't one feel that the goverment of that state then prefers it?

Shall make no law establishing a state religion

:rolleyes:
_________________________
Ned Flanders: "Some people say being a cave man is old fashioned, then I guess I'm just a cave man...if they existed....which they didn't."

My Former 2001 Xterra SE 4x4 With Modifications

My Ex-Xterra Web Site

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#203245 - 28/04/03 12:23 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
There is a big difference between Muslims taking time to do their own thing, and prayer before a 'state-sponsored' football game. The first is an individual's right, and does not affect anyone else. The second is seen as a 'state-sponsered' religious activity.

The way I see it, the state should not sponsor or set up any religious activities in schools or elsewhere. I also think that each student has the right to read their Bible or whatever, and pray in their spare time at school. The distinction being an individual's choice vs. a sponsered event by a governing body.
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Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#203246 - 28/04/03 12:49 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
TravelingFool Offline
Member

Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by 2001frontier:
There is a big difference between Muslims taking time to do their own thing, and prayer before a 'state-sponsored' football game. The first is an individual's right, and does not affect anyone else.
I understand your point about the perception of state imposed prayer, etc. Make no mistake however, Muslims taking time to do their own thing affects us BIG TIME.

Examples:

1. You'd like to wash up before lunch, but you can't because there's a line of people washing their fucking FEET in the sink so they can pray.

2. You can't hold a meeting without an interuptive knock on the door every 5 minutes and a muslim face peeking around the corner to see if the room's empty for his prayers.

3. You can't find a place to HAVE a meeting because all of the conference rooms have praying muslims in them.

4. The bathrooms are so foul that you can't use them. Apparantly "purifying the soul for prayer" includes "purging your unclean thoughts through masturbation." Its not unusual at all to walk into the bathroom to discover a muslim man cranking one off in the stall.

I understand its a different culture. I understand that religion is a way of life for them. I also understand that our HR department doesn't want to touch any of it with a 10 foot pole. But don't sit on your high horse and fucking tell me that "doing their own thing" doesn't affect anyone else.

The fact that I put up with that bullshit every day of my working life "as a part of the job" is one thing, but the fact that kids today aren't being prepared for it pisses me off to no end. On one end, kids are supposed to learn tolerance and acceptance of people and cultures... On the other hand, we're "protecting them" by prosecuting the few teachers who want to say a 30 second prayer before class?

Its OK to have "safe sex zones" in school where kids can supposedly explore questions about their sexuality in a "hate free" environment, but you don't want to allow students to hold private prayer meetings in a classroom after school?" I'm sorry, that's just fucked up, and it pisses me off.

Its OK to discuss orgasms, masturbatory techniques, and the safety of certain birth control methods, but NOT to discuss abstinence? We're supposed to enforce tolerance but there's no room in the science department for "Creationism" even if it were presented as a "theory?"

It all smacks of two-faced bullshit, and its one of the primary reasons my wife and I don't want to have any kids. By the time I have a kid and he/she's 15, they'll be teaching "sex class" with the viewing of bi-sexual porno films.
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#203247 - 28/04/03 12:54 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Sorry dude, I will get off my high horse now. :rolleyes:

My point was the distinction between the two. Sounds like there needs to be some guidelines set up at your company. Going back to the school scenario, I would not think it right for a kid to start reading his Bible in class when he had class work to do. It should be reserved for free time, such as lunch or something similar. That seems to be a bit more of a problem with the Muslim though. They are supposed to pray at certain times and stuff. I am glad I am not in your HR department.
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#203248 - 28/04/03 01:18 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
lemsip Offline
Member

Registered: 26/10/00
Posts: 1488
Loc: Lakewood, CO
Pnut, I hope for your sake you're not posting that from your place of work.

Personally I think this separation of church and state is meaningless. The Church of England is the state sponsored religion in the UK, yet it has far less influence over politics or daily life than religion does here, despite the alleged separation.

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#203249 - 28/04/03 01:31 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
As someone else said in another thread...

"No need to say anything...my sig says it all."

[Wave]
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#203250 - 28/04/03 02:05 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
Andre the Giant Offline
Member

Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
I think building permanent monument to the Ten Commandments on Government property is definitely a no-no. If they allowed that, they would have to allow any faith to erect any kind of monument it wanted in honor of any religion or lack thereof.

I likewise think that having a manger or religious decorations on Government land during the holidays is wrong, if it is put up by the city, state or government. HOWEVER... I think a little common sense would be nice. A local park in our county is set aside during the holidays so that groups can display Christmas and Hannukka decorations. Some of the displays get quite religious. A few people, (not even from our community) have threatened to sue because of the percieved violation of the church & State separation. Get real... :rolleyes: There's nothing stopping them from putting up a really drab display calling for an end to religion.

The radicals on both sides need a real dose of [Save the fine unicorns]
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#203251 - 28/04/03 02:23 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
xterrapin Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1842
Loc: San Francisco
Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:
4. The bathrooms are so foul that you can't use them. Apparantly "purifying the soul for prayer" includes "purging your unclean thoughts through masturbation." Its not unusual at all to walk into the bathroom to discover a muslim man cranking one off in the stall.
What?????!!!!!!??????
Are you serious?
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#203252 - 28/04/03 02:25 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Yeah, that is pretty gross.
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Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#203253 - 28/04/03 02:27 PM Re: Separation of Church and State...Hello?
TravelingFool Offline
Member

Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
What?????!!!!!!??????
Are you serious?
Very serious. Its disgusting.
_________________________
kjw &
the PNUTMNM

The liver is evil, and must be punished...

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