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#203269 - 21/08/03 04:17 AM Alabama.
xterrapin Offline
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Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1842
Loc: San Francisco
Listening to NPR this morning and they played the CNBC interview with the Alabama Supereme Court Judge that refuses to remove the ten commandments from the courthouse; what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
I don't get it. He's a judge, sworn to uphold the law, ignoring the law. Seems a little contradictory to me. confused
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#203270 - 21/08/03 04:57 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
Listening to NPR this morning and they played the CNBC interview with the Alabama Supereme Court Judge that refuses to remove the ten commandments from the courthouse; what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
I don't get it. He's a judge, sworn to uphold the law, ignoring the law. Seems a little contradictory to me. confused
There is right, and there is wrong regardless of what laws men create. He is doing the right thing. He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing. Good for him.

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#203271 - 21/08/03 05:47 AM Re: Alabama.
xterrapin Offline
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Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1842
Loc: San Francisco
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:

He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing.
Uhhhh.....yeah, OK. :rolleyes:
He's a fucking judge! The rule of law is all that exists.
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#203272 - 21/08/03 06:37 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]
He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing.
Uhhhh.....yeah, OK. :rolleyes:
He's a fucking judge! The rule of law is all that exists.[/b]
True, but don't you think it is grand when someone stands up all alone to fight for something he believes in?

You know, like how all you bleedin' heart pu??ies did protesting the war?

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#203273 - 21/08/03 06:37 AM Re: Alabama.
Guido Offline
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Registered: 25/01/01
Posts: 1438
Loc: Albertville, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
[b]Listening to NPR this morning and they played the CNBC interview with the Alabama Supereme Court Judge that refuses to remove the ten commandments from the courthouse; what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
I don't get it. He's a judge, sworn to uphold the law, ignoring the law. Seems a little contradictory to me. confused
There is right, and there is wrong regardless of what laws men create. He is doing the right thing. He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing. Good for him.[/b]
There is this little thing called the Constitution that pretty much governs what we are allowed to do in this country. He is a judge who swore to up hold it. His act of defying the Separation of Church and state should be cause enough for him to be fired.

To take your comment a little further...If someone were to kill my daughter and I turned around and killed him/her. Should I not be prosecuted?? It may not have been legal to kill that person, but it was the right thing to do.
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#203274 - 21/08/03 06:41 AM Re: Alabama.
coferj Offline
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Registered: 17/12/01
Posts: 713
Loc: Montgomery, AL
Well, I'm from AL, and I'm completely embarrassed by this moron. The whole, "may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing", sell it to someone who ain't paying for it, k?

Right now there is a huge bustle going on about a $1.2 billion tax plan that the Gov is trying to pass through, and the citizens are talking about being overtaxed, etc...but then you have someone like this moron that is doing nothing more than showboating on taxpayers' dimes, for what? What exact purpose does that eyesore serve? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a religious person, and it doesn't bother me either way, but if the highest court in the land demands it gone, get it the hell outta there and let that be it. I'm so tired of hearing about Judge Moore that I could just croak.

Yet, I regress...Please, tell me, what purpose does that monument serve??

I'll tell you, nothing!!
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#203275 - 21/08/03 06:54 AM Re: Alabama.
xterrapin Offline
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Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1842
Loc: San Francisco
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
You know, like how all you bleedin' heart pu??ies did protesting the war?
Personal convictions don't matter when you are breaking the law while, at the same time, sworn to uphold it. Peaceably assembling as an expression of one's first amendment rights is guaranteed and is not in violation of the law or a ruling by the federal supreme court.
If a police officer commits pre-meditated, first-degree murder, doesn't mean it's OK just cause he/she is a cop.
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#203276 - 21/08/03 06:56 AM Re: Alabama.
Andre the Giant Offline
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Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
Question:

Is the ten commandments monument a religious display, or a historical one? The ten commandments were a pretty important event in the history of law, right up there with, the whole Hamurabi code or whatever it was called. But I would expect it to be part of a larger display about the history of law that includes other strong influences on our current legal system.

If the display is historically based, it should be allowed to stay. If it is a shrine to God, celebrating his generocity for giving us the commandments, it should be removed.
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#203277 - 21/08/03 07:35 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Guido:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
[b]Listening to NPR this morning and they played the CNBC interview with the Alabama Supereme Court Judge that refuses to remove the ten commandments from the courthouse; what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
I don't get it. He's a judge, sworn to uphold the law, ignoring the law. Seems a little contradictory to me. confused
There is right, and there is wrong regardless of what laws men create. He is doing the right thing. He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing. Good for him.[/b]
There is this little thing called the Constitution that pretty much governs what we are allowed to do in this country. He is a judge who swore to up hold it. His act of defying the Separation of Church and state should be cause enough for him to be fired.

To take your comment a little further...If someone were to kill my daughter and I turned around and killed him/her. Should I not be prosecuted?? It may not have been legal to kill that person, but it was the right thing to do.[/b]
There is no law written anywheres that says seperation of church and state. This is not what was meant by that comment anyway.

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#203278 - 21/08/03 07:36 AM Re: Alabama.
OffroadX Offline
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Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 13692
Loc: Baltimore, MD
What the hell kind of question is that? Of course it's a religious display, ask any of the rabid bible-banging morons down there that are having fits about a piece of rock being removed...

Brent
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#203279 - 21/08/03 07:50 AM Re: Alabama.
Stone4x4 Offline
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Registered: 28/07/01
Posts: 1277
Loc: Chandler AZ
He's a "fucking judge" ???
Where do you get work like that......."well you climaxed too early......points off for that"
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#203280 - 21/08/03 07:56 AM Re: Alabama.
Guido Offline
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Registered: 25/01/01
Posts: 1438
Loc: Albertville, MN
_________________________
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-Kent Hrbek

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#203281 - 21/08/03 08:03 AM Re: Alabama.
Trihead Offline
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Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 1669
Loc: Austin Texas
So that would be in interpretation of the first amendment buy one of the dude that wrote it?

Sort of what the supreme court tries to do now?

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#203282 - 21/08/03 08:06 AM Re: Alabama.
TravelingFool Offline
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Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
The rule of law is all that exists.
This is an incredibly ignorant statement. If it were true, we would have computers for judges. Judges make "judgement" calls. They define the law, they create laws, they interpret laws. They are not enforcers who command the "rule of law that is all that exists."

This is why supreme court judges write extensive OPINIONS regarding the votes they make on the laws that are sent to them for interpretation. Its also why Roe V Wade is STILL debated in this country, even though there is a LAW.

This judge in Alabama is an elected official, there is no doubt in my mind that he personally believes it is wrong to remove those commandments, and obviously many of his constituents feel the same. He instituted a peaceful protest and did what he could WITHIN the law to keep them as long as he could to raise some awareness of his plight.

I'm behind him 100%. It saddens me to see the general direction the country is headed in.... elimination of any mention of the Bible or Biblical text in schools or government buildings, legal gay marriages, legal gambling, prostitution, etc.

I don't mean to sound like a TV evangelist or anything, but the trend is definately AWAY from biblical principal in this country. Ever read what happens to countries like that in the Bible? Its interesting. Its not good! Fire, brimstone, pillars of salt, etc....
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#203283 - 21/08/03 08:17 AM Re: Alabama.
NismoXse02 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
Holy crap, Alabama is doing the right thing? Good for them. I was getting a little worried about them for awhile. And great post Andre the Giant... only problem is that the answer to both of your questions is "yes". [Freak]
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#203284 - 21/08/03 08:38 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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People talk about our laws being based on the ten commandments...but then explain this (going by the Catholic version):

Commandment 1 - no law.

Commandment 2 - no law says you can't use God's name in vain.

Commandment 3 - Nope...no law.

Commandment 4 - Nope...no law.

Commandment 5 - Yes! a law! (But it is something that affects someone else's living)

Commandment 6 - Some laws. How many are enforced?

Commandment 7 - Yes, another law - but it affects someone else's property.

Commandment 8 - yes, a law. But it affects someone else - false accusations, for example.

Commandment 9 - Nope, no law. Well, depending on how you interpret "covet".

Commandment 10 - Same as 9. No law, how does each individual interpret "covet?"

So maybe he should just have a tablet with commandments 5-8?

Then of course, we have "The Great Commandments" which are higher up in the Catholic faith than the other 10 (basically the other 10 fall within these two):

1.You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

No civil laws there.

2. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

See above - some civil laws within.
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#203285 - 21/08/03 08:41 AM Re: Alabama.
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
I am an atheist. Lets get that out of the way.

The 1st ammendment basically means there will be no "official" religion of the state. The governement can't give catholics preferential treatment over protestants and so forth. Nor can protestants be discriminated against because they are protestants. (insert whatever religion you want)What it does NOT say is that there can be no religion at all in government. The government can be all born-again Baptists (insert whatever religion you want) and have a forgivness prayer every morning if they prefer. But what they CANNOT do is make everyone else a Baptist (insert religion here) under pain of imprisonment or discrimination. Or keep a non-baptist(insert religion here) person from freely practicing (or not)thier own religion. That is what the law means. It says nothing about having no religious references on state buildings.

Now I do not see how having the Ten Commandments on a courthouse establishes a state religion, or prohibits the freedom to worship how we please. Since the commandments apply to BOTH the Jewish and christian religion, it seems that it covers a wide array. Do the commandment being displayed somehow discriminate against muslims, hindus , or wiccans, or even worse prohibit them from exercising their rights to worship as they please? No they do not. If they are offended, (and I'll bet they are not) too bad. The ACLU is out of control.
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#203286 - 21/08/03 08:41 AM Re: Alabama.
Trihead Offline
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Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 1669
Loc: Austin Texas
[/Quote]
I don't mean to sound like a TV evangelist or anything, but the trend is definately AWAY from biblical principal in this country. Ever read what happens to countries like that in the Bible? Its interesting. Its not good! Fire, brimstone, pillars of salt, etc....[/QB][/QUOTE]

Does this mean god is a mass murderer? I know that sounds like a smartass question but I don't know how people reconcile this in their religous beliefs.

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#203287 - 21/08/03 08:54 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Trihead:
I don't mean to sound like a TV evangelist or anything, but the trend is definately AWAY from biblical principal in this country. Ever read what happens to countries like that in the Bible? Its interesting. Its not good! Fire, brimstone, pillars of salt, etc....[/QUOTE]

Does this mean god is a mass murderer? I know that sounds like a smartass question but I don't know how people reconcile this in their religous beliefs.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Call it what you want. He has already destroyed the Earth with a great flood, along with other demonstrations of tough love towards us.

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#203288 - 21/08/03 09:00 AM Re: Alabama.
Trihead Offline
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Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 1669
Loc: Austin Texas
hummmm I don't want to hijack the thread (again) but I don't really understand that thinking. He gave his only begotten son but will kill all that he has created. Seriously Off2c I am not trying to rip on you I am trying to understand.

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#203289 - 21/08/03 09:13 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Trihead:
hummmm I don't want to hijack the thread (again) but I don't really understand that thinking. He gave his only begotten son but will kill all that he has created. Seriously Off2c I am not trying to rip on you I am trying to understand.
In its simplest terms; He gave us a list of rules to follow. He gave us every chance to change our ways. We didn't, so he cleaned house and started new. Really, just thing of it has the greatest case of tough love you can imagine. Also, those without the spirit will not understand. Meaning non-believers will have a much more time understanding what it is about.
His ways are not our ways. Our understanding is not His.

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#203290 - 21/08/03 09:21 AM Re: Alabama.
NismoXse02 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
Man, and just when I thought Alabama was returning to normalcy (sp?), they go and do this:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95313,00.html

Oh well, I'm damn glad to be living in Texas. laugh
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#203291 - 21/08/03 09:23 AM Re: Alabama.
Trihead Offline
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Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 1669
Loc: Austin Texas
Thanks for the explanation. I just can not imagine as a parent since we are all gods children that there is anything that my daughter could do that I would kill her. Just hard for me to get my mind around.

I never said that I was a non-believer. I guess by your standards I am not. I just don't believe in the way that it is presented in many churches.

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#203292 - 21/08/03 09:29 AM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Trihead:
Thanks for the explanation. I just can not imagine as a parent since we are all gods children that there is anything that my daughter could do that I would kill her. Just hard for me to get my mind around.

I never said that I was a non-believer. I guess by your standards I am not. I just don't believe in the way that it is presented in many churches.
I understand that stance. Believe me when I say I am there with you. Believer or non, try reading Isiah 55.

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#203293 - 21/08/03 09:39 AM Re: Alabama.
TravelingFool Offline
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Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
Its hard for anybody to get their mind around it. The bible says that all things will not be made clear until the end of times (or we die).

I have a hard time with people lumping "the church" and "organized religion" with biblical truth and reason. When people say, "Well, I'm catholic so... " or "I'm a baptist, therefore..." I think that's crap.

Personally, I believe and follow the bible. I've attended and been a part of a non-denominational church for more than 30 years and I have as hard of a time wrapping my head around some of it as much as anyone. I have tremendous faith that good things come out of bad events and chains of events are set in place that result in a greater good that we're not always aware of. Why do innocent children die of cancer? Why do earthquakes kill thousands in impoverished countries? I don't think its because they sinned or did some terrible wrong as much as that events like that serve their purpose in the same way a small puzzle piece fits a much bigger picture.

Keep in mind that God didn't want a bunch of worshipful automatons marching around the earth. He created us with a free-will and his desire for us to voluntarily recognize and worship him. The other side of that coin is that free-will allows us to "screw up" and make bad choices. We all do. The consequences of those choices aren't always pretty.

This is what I believe, at any rate, and I'm not making any attempt to "Evangalize" or "convert" anyone, I'm just tossing it out there for anyone interested. I'm not criticizing anyone else's beliefs either, please keep any flames to yourself.
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#203294 - 21/08/03 10:00 AM Re: Alabama.
Guido Offline
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Registered: 25/01/01
Posts: 1438
Loc: Albertville, MN
PNUT:

That was one of the best explanations of religion/God's Will that I have seen!

I consider myself an agnostic. Until God/Jesus/Allah makes an appearance on 20/20 with Barbara Walters, I have a hard time believing he/she/it exhists.

My undergraduate degree is Biology w/Zoology emphasis. So until I have hard evidence of heis/her/it's exhistence I have a hard time "wrapping my head" around this whole religion thing.

I was baptized Catholic and confirmed Luthren. As I get older and especially after the birth of my daughter, I find myself wondering if I should be more of a God fearing person.

The thing that keeps me from embracing religion is that every time I get close, some religious faction does something that would be totally against what I would think a god would accept. Or a favorite relative is stricken with cancer or some terrible event happens that further shakes my beliefs.

I'll quit rambling.
_________________________
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-Kent Hrbek

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#203295 - 21/08/03 10:14 AM Re: Alabama.
Booya Offline
Member

Registered: 20/06/02
Posts: 239
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]
He may not be doing the legal thing, but the right thing.
Uhhhh.....yeah, OK. :rolleyes:
He's a fucking judge! The rule of law is all that exists.[/b]
I know you think this sucks but you have to remember;

1. It looks as if many folks in Alabama support this cause.

2. In most cases majority rules in this country. If the majority of Alabama does not agree with the decision, based on their opinion that the interpretation of the law is wrong, they can oppose the decision in this case.

3. Alabama can use their sovereignty as a state to oppose a federal injunction.

4. The judge, is one person and subject to human mistakes. That's why our constitution has checks and balances.

5. Although not necessarily applicable in this situation, remember a judge is only an interpreter of the law and makes decisions. A judge is not above a legislative branch of the government.

Now, MBFlyerfan, I think the fact that you are an atheist allows you the least biased opinion in this thread. I believe your interpretation of the law is dead on and you are absolutely correct! At least that's my opinion. Although, I will add that the law of this land does not support those who take offense about anything.

Let's see how this all plays out.
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#203296 - 21/08/03 10:22 AM Re: Alabama.
KJ_dragon Offline
Member

Registered: 28/08/01
Posts: 4806
Loc: East Bay, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Trihead:
hummmm I don't want to hijack the thread (again) but I don't really understand that thinking. He gave his only begotten son but will kill all that he has created. Seriously Off2c I am not trying to rip on you I am trying to understand.
I believe Pnut and Off2cjb explained it pretty clearly. I do not understand how a God of love could lay down such a harsh punishment, but as they explained, its possibly part of a larger puzzle and its tough love to drive in a point.

I do not have any children of my own, so I cannot relate on what it must be like to consider a harsh punish for my children. Maybe someday I will.
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#203297 - 21/08/03 10:26 AM Re: Alabama.
KJ_dragon Offline
Member

Registered: 28/08/01
Posts: 4806
Loc: East Bay, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
I am an atheist. Lets get that out of the way.

The 1st ammendment basically means there will be no "official" religion of the state. The governement can't give catholics preferential treatment over protestants and so forth. Nor can protestants be discriminated against because they are protestants. [b](insert whatever religion you want)
What it does NOT say is that there can be no religion at all in government. The government can be all born-again Baptists (insert whatever religion you want) and have a forgivness prayer every morning if they prefer. But what they CANNOT do is make everyone else a Baptist (insert religion here) under pain of imprisonment or discrimination. Or keep a non-baptist(insert religion here) person from freely practicing (or not)thier own religion. That is what the law means. It says nothing about having no religious references on state buildings.

Now I do not see how having the Ten Commandments on a courthouse establishes a state religion, or prohibits the freedom to worship how we please. Since the commandments apply to BOTH the Jewish and christian religion, it seems that it covers a wide array. Do the commandment being displayed somehow discriminate against muslims, hindus , or wiccans, or even worse prohibit them from exercising their rights to worship as they please? No they do not. If they are offended, (and I'll bet they are not) too bad. The ACLU is out of control.[/b]
[Wave] That was one of the best explanations of the correct interpretation I have read on this board. And coming from an athiest makes it an even stronger statement.

Andre the Giant's question is also a good post as well. Are the 10 commandments religion? Are they a historical document of laws? Both are true.
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#203298 - 21/08/03 10:35 AM Re: Alabama.
KJ_dragon Offline
Member

Registered: 28/08/01
Posts: 4806
Loc: East Bay, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Guido:
As I get older and especially after the birth of my daughter, I find myself wondering if I should be more of a God fearing person.
I don't like the term "God Fearing Person". God has many attributes - Love, all knowing, Righteous, omnipresent, eternal, etc... Fear is such a negative term. How about changin it to a "God Loving Person"?

I think one of the problems comes from the English language. There is only one word for "Fear". Whereas in the Chinese language (for example) there are two words for fear. One is a "good fear" or a fear of respect and submission.(like how you fear your parents when you are little kid) the other is a "bad fear" and that is a fear of control, or of power of something unknown. (like the fear of the bully at school, who will kick your a** for milk money.)
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#203299 - 21/08/03 10:48 AM Re: Alabama.
Guido Offline
Member

Registered: 25/01/01
Posts: 1438
Loc: Albertville, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by KJ_dragon:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guido:
[b]As I get older and especially after the birth of my daughter, I find myself wondering if I should be more of a God fearing person.
I don't like the term "God Fearing Person". God has many attributes - Love, all knowing, Righteous, omnipresent, eternal, etc... Fear is such a negative term. How about changin it to a "God Loving Person"?

I think one of the problems comes from the English language. There is only one word for "Fear". Whereas in the Chinese language (for example) there are two words for fear. One is a "good fear" or a fear of respect and submission.(like how you fear your parents when you are little kid) the other is a "bad fear" and that is a fear of control, or of power of something unknown. (like the fear of the bully at school, who will kick your a** for milk money.)[/b]
That was a poor choice of words, but that is how it is usually stated.

Maybe God knowing person would be better.
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-Kent Hrbek

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#203300 - 21/08/03 10:58 AM Re: Alabama.
NthLJ Offline
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Registered: 28/09/01
Posts: 1297
Loc: Reno, NV USA
PNUT says: I'm behind him 100%. It saddens me to see the general direction the country is headed in.... elimination of any mention of the Bible or Biblical text in schools or government buildings, legal gay marriages, legal gambling, prostitution, etc.

At least in Nevada we don't have to worry about any of that crap... [Spit]
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#203301 - 21/08/03 01:31 PM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieX:
PNUT says: I'm behind him 100%. It saddens me to see the general direction the country is headed in.... elimination of any mention of the Bible or Biblical text in schools or government buildings, legal gay marriages, legal gambling, prostitution, etc.

At least in Nevada we don't have to worry about any of that crap... [Spit]
HAHAHA... smile smile laugh

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#203302 - 21/08/03 02:07 PM Re: Alabama.
Booya Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by KJ_dragon:
Quote:
Originally posted by Guido:
[b]As I get older and especially after the birth of my daughter, I find myself wondering if I should be more of a God fearing person.
I don't like the term "God Fearing Person". God has many attributes - Love, all knowing, Righteous, omnipresent, eternal, etc... Fear is such a negative term. How about changin it to a "God Loving Person"?

I think one of the problems comes from the English language. There is only one word for "Fear". Whereas in the Chinese language (for example) there are two words for fear. One is a "good fear" or a fear of respect and submission.(like how you fear your parents when you are little kid) the other is a "bad fear" and that is a fear of control, or of power of something unknown. (like the fear of the bully at school, who will kick your a** for milk money.)[/b]
KJ_Dragon, in my interpretation, this wording of fear does mean utter respect. It also means obedience. I get this by analyzing and reading all accounts where the "fear of God" is stated in the scriptures.

Some Christian religions interpret fear the way you stated as a more "bad fear" or I would say negative fear. Good point to bring that up.
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#203303 - 21/08/03 07:23 PM Re: Alabama.
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Back to the original topic...the Judge.

OK, he has his convictions. I can't fault him for having them (regardless of whether I agree or not).

BUT...let's put forth a hypothetical situation. If a family that follow the Jehovah's Witnesses has a kid that dies because he didn't get the medical treatment he could have used, would this judge find for or against them if brought up with charges?

Really a catch-22 for him, isn't it?

What about a death penalty case? I may be mistaken, but the commandment doesn't have any conditional pieces - Thou Shalt Not Kill.

At this point, he's damned if does, damned if he doesn't (figuratively speaking, of course. laugh )
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#203304 - 21/08/03 08:23 PM Re: Alabama.
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Moby, I really don't think you can compare those two at all. They may be both based on religion, but that is as far as it goes. Now if the judge belonged to the same denomination and church, then that would create quite a predicament.

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#203305 - 22/08/03 05:31 AM Re: Alabama.
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I don't think the judges denomination or church membership has anything to do with it. There are probably zillions of judges out there who'd rather not sentence anyone to death due to their own personal convictions. They do it anyway, based on evidence, the suspect's attitude, and the results of the case. It doesn't mean they don't go home, pour themselves a tall snort of whiskey, sit back in that deep leather chair, and ask God to give them some reasoning about why he had to do it.

Moby, you can't possibly be suggesting that you wouldn't want him on the bench because he believes in a respects the 10 commandments, do you? I don't know about the man's court record but I'm sure the press would have had a field day with it if he had a lopsided or unfair decision record...

I believe the problem he has with the removal of the monument is that it represents a further removal of God-like or Christian principals from a place of justice. Its the same way my mom felt when she found out that our prayer group couldn't meet on school grounds anymore, but gay-rights clubs could. Not that the gay students shouldn't be allowed to meet, but it seemed like a deliberate attempt to hide or remove the option for Christianity.

My old company wouldn't give us a conference room to use at lunch for a men's prayer group, but they let literally hundreds of muslims drag their prayer mats around the building, wash their feet in the breakroom, and kneel and pray to mecca in the cafeteria, hallways, and any empty room they could find. Explain that. They want to be politically correct, but have no tolerance for Judeo-Christian beliefs?

My friends Dawn and Lee just bought a new house in a neighborhood where it turns out they're in the middle of a gay community. When their neighbors discovered that they were a straight married couple who attend church frequently, they were labelled, "Bible Thumpers" and everyone around them avoids them and their house like the plague. Why? They haven't attempted to convert anyone or condem them. Why are people afraid of Christians and what they stand for? Its not like they have a reputation or penchant for partying late, having sex and drug parties, letting their property fall apart or commit henious neighborhood crimes. They might bring you cookies or invite you to come to church with them at Christmas... is that a crime?
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#203306 - 22/08/03 06:43 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:
Moby, you can't possibly be suggesting that you wouldn't want him on the bench because he believes in a respects the 10 commandments, do you? I don't know about the man's court record but I'm sure the press would have had a field day with it if he had a lopsided or unfair decision record...
No, no. I have no problem with him having respect for them. But he seems to be putting his spiritual convictions above his duty to the letter of the law. That's why I bring up the Jehovah's thing, and why it's a catch-22. If he sides with the state, then apparently he is sending the message that the Jehovah's spiritual convictions should take a back seat to the law. Is that right? Dunno. Catch-22.

Quote:
I believe the problem he has with the removal of the monument is that it represents a further removal of God-like or Christian principals from a place of justice.
but I think that's where he's mistaken. Taking away a physical item shouldn't have any bearing on his Christian principals.

Quote:
Its the same way my mom felt when she found out that our prayer group couldn't meet on school grounds anymore, but gay-rights clubs could. Not that the gay students shouldn't be allowed to meet, but it seemed like a deliberate attempt to hide or remove the option for Christianity.
But how can you compare the two? A gay student meeting has nothing to do with religion. An at this point, religious groups (of any kind) can't have gatherings on school grounds (I know it's been challenged...not sure of the outcome). So the two can't really be compared.

Quote:
My old company wouldn't give us a conference room to use at lunch for a men's prayer group, but they let literally hundreds of muslims drag their prayer mats around the building, wash their feet in the breakroom, and kneel and pray to mecca in the cafeteria, hallways, and any empty room they could find. Explain that. They want to be politically correct, but have no tolerance for Judeo-Christian beliefs?
No, that I agree with you. They should be letting both do what they want to do (provided it doesn't take away from productivity). Well, that or not letting either. But treat them the same.

Quote:
My friends Dawn and Lee just bought a new house in a neighborhood where it turns out they're in the middle of a gay community. When their neighbors discovered that they were a straight married couple who attend church frequently, they were labelled, "Bible Thumpers" and everyone around them avoids them and their house like the plague. Why? They haven't attempted to convert anyone or condem them. Why are people afraid of Christians and what they stand for? Its not like they have a reputation or penchant for partying late, having sex and drug parties, letting their property fall apart or commit henious neighborhood crimes. They might bring you cookies or invite you to come to church with them at Christmas... is that a crime?
Prejudice comes in all flavors. Their neighbors are doing exactly what they are always perceiving people do to them. Someone needs to smack them upside the head and show them their hypocritical attitudes.
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#203307 - 22/08/03 06:49 AM Re: Alabama.
Trihead Offline
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Good point Moby. I totally have no problem with prayer in school. The only problem is here in good ole Oklahoma prayer is fine as long as it is the right kind of prayer. If it was meditaion of a Buhdist or Muslim prayer there would be a huge outcry and possible violence. In OKC there have been several issues involving Mosques.

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#203308 - 22/08/03 07:11 AM Re: Alabama.
GrayHam Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:
My friends Dawn and Lee just bought a new house in a neighborhood where it turns out they're in the middle of a gay community. When their neighbors discovered that they were a straight married couple who attend church frequently, they were labelled, "Bible Thumpers" and everyone around them avoids them and their house like the plague. Why? They haven't attempted to convert anyone or condem them. Why are people afraid of Christians and what they stand for? Its not like they have a reputation or penchant for partying late, having sex and drug parties, letting their property fall apart or commit henious neighborhood crimes. They might bring you cookies or invite you to come to church with them at Christmas... is that a crime?
Not a whole lot of "Christians" fear for their lives anymore in this country. Sure, you can't have a lunch-hour prayer room . . . so sad . . .

Ask Matthew Sheppard and the thousands and thousands of other gay-bashing victims why they avoid "Bible thumpers" . . .

Not saying your friends' neighbors aren't being a little hypocritical . . . but sometimes it's just safer to avoid people and be wrong about them, thean to embrace them and be violently wrong about them . . .
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#203309 - 22/08/03 07:26 AM Re: Alabama.
Sean Offline
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A couple of questions for all you guy's:

This judge keeps referring to the court house as his. Didn't the tax payers of Alabama pay for the court house? Who paid for the monument anyway?

What right did this judge have sneaking this monument (in the middle of the night) and placing it in a PUBLIC building? Why didn't he just put it in his yard?

I guess some people have nothing better going on in their lives other than pushing religion on the rest of the population.

:rolleyes:
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#203310 - 22/08/03 07:55 AM Re: Alabama.
kd4adc Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
You show your ignorance my making an insulting, blanket, stereotypical statement like that. Are all Californians ignorant in light of Gray Davis? No. Or in your case, are all communists ignorant in light of Stalin? No.
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#203311 - 22/08/03 12:22 PM Re: Alabama.
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The main point is that it serves no point. There is nothing served by having this monument there..the only thing taking place is taxpayer dollars flying out the window prosecuting and defending this. The monument should not have to be there for someone to have their convictions. It's just like everything else in this state...you're not true to something until you try to shove it down someone else's throat, mainly religion.
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#203312 - 22/08/03 07:26 PM Re: Alabama.
NY Madman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:

Listening to NPR this morning and they played the CNBC interview with the Alabama Supereme Court Judge that refuses to remove the ten commandments from the courthouse; what is with people in Alabama, are they ALL that ignorant?
I don't get it. He's a judge, sworn to uphold the law, ignoring the law. Seems a little contradictory to me.
It figures you would listen to NPR (Leftism on the taxpayers dime).

There is a lot of wrong statements in this thread.

I will give anyone every cent I am worth if they can find anywhere in the U.S. Constitution that has the phrase "Separation of Church and State".

The Federal government is not allowed to establish a religion. They are also forbidden from dis-establishing any religion.

The judge in Alabama is 100% correct.

When the hell are we going to get away from this judicial tyranny that is creeping into this country. Judges (primarily Federal judges) seem to interpret the constitution any way they see fit. This is wrong and these judges should be impeached. They are violating their oaths (which ironically they swore upon the bible and before "GOD").

The term "Separation of Church and State" was invented by liberals and leftists just like the guy that started this thread. The minions of idiots that have heard it over and over again throughout the years somehow seem to have been programmed to think that this is the law. It is NOT.

This whole issue is a State of Alabama issue. No federal judge has any business sticking his nose into this matter whatsoever.

We are loosing this country to leftist radicals in robes who legislate from the bench. Our government was not designed this way and it is cracking apart and will self destruct.

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#203313 - 23/08/03 08:36 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
The term "Separation of Church and State" was invented by liberals and leftists just like the guy that started this thread. The minions of idiots that have heard it over and over again throughout the years somehow seem to have been programmed to think that this is the law. It is NOT.
Actually it was invented by Thomas Jefferson:

Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State (Letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802).
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#203314 - 23/08/03 08:47 AM Re: Alabama.
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Yea in 1802. In a letter. I will say it again, it says nothing in the constitution about seperation of church and state.

"Thus building a WALL OF SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE" Jefferson did not mean that there should be no religion in government. He was merely stating that the two should have no influence on each other. Our government could be made up of entirely fundamentalist muslims and that would be ok. As long as they did nothing to impede the religions of others, or force others to become muslims. Or make laws based on muslim only beliefs.
Even as an atheist I am sick and tired of this blatant fear of christianity and judaism that seems to be rampant in liberal thinking these days.
That being said.

The judge broke the law. Was it a good law? No.

But the bottom line is until the law is changed, he should fight within the system to change it. The commandments should never have had to be removed, but the law stated they had to be.
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#203315 - 23/08/03 10:33 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
Even as an atheist I am sick and tired of this blatant fear of christianity and judaism that seems to be rampant in liberal thinking these days.
It has nothing to do with a fear of christianity an judaism. If the judge was muslim, and put in something from the Koran, it should be removed.
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#203316 - 23/08/03 10:39 AM Re: Alabama.
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
[b]Even as an atheist I am sick and tired of this blatant fear of christianity and judaism that seems to be rampant in liberal thinking these days.
It has nothing to do with a fear of christianity an judaism. If the judge was muslim, and put in something from the Koran, it should be removed.[/b]
No it should not. Only if you could prove that it was somehow giving preferential treatment to muslims. Words on a wall do no such thing. Now if it said, "All ye who enter here should be muslim or they will not be judged fairly under our law." Then it would need to be taken down. Then the government would be establishing that muslims will get preferential treatment.

In terms of the commandments, you cannot prove that having them there establishes preferential treatment for those that believe in the judeo-christian religion. You cannot prove that buddhists or muslims will be treated any less fairly.

Regardless of what all these so called scholars think, this is what the founding fathers meant when they wrote that ammendment. That being a certain religion would not get you treated more fairly than another. Its not all that complicated.
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#203317 - 23/08/03 12:29 PM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Of course you can't prove it gives preferential treatment.

What it does do is gives implicit endorsement of a certain religious belief. Maybe not to you. But to some it does.

If he had it in his private chamber, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Quote:
Regardless of what all these so called scholars think, this is what the founding fathers meant when they wrote that ammendment. That being a certain religion would not get you treated more fairly than another. Its not all that complicated.
But how do you know? That is, how is your interpretation better than others?

I personally view the "separation" that Jefferson spoke of meant that religion has no business in government, and government has no business in religion. (That's not to say my interpretation is better...just different.)

This doesn't mean that government should stay out of whether the block should be in the courthouse or not. It means the block should never have been there in the first place.

(I must say I do find it ironic (and amusing) that you are an atheist arguing it doesn't matter if it's there, and I, as a Catholic (and thereby a Christian - though not by Off2's standards), am saying it shouldn't be there. laugh )
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#203318 - 23/08/03 08:14 PM Re: Alabama.
Guido Offline
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Hey Moby and MBFlyerfan,

I posted the info about Thomas Jefferson on page one of this thread, so don't you two go taking credit for it!!!! [Finger] laugh :p
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#203319 - 23/08/03 11:57 PM Re: Alabama.
XOC Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
Yea in 1802. In a letter.
That's a lot more evidence than some fictional words written 2000 years ago, or were they carved into stone by a lightining bolt, I forget.

The 10 Commandments are a nice set of moral recommendations for a civilized race to live by, but face it, this planet will never reach that level.
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#203320 - 24/08/03 04:04 AM Re: Alabama.
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The laws regarding "separation of church and state" are about preventing the government from forcing one particular religion upon the people. If is about Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion.

This is why God is mentioned in so many civil venues, like "In God we trust."

Sadly, part of the reason that we have so many problems in the country is because we have used the notion of separation of church and state to prevent freedom of religion.

For example, I do not think that students should be forced to pray in school or that a crowd at a football game should be forced to pray before the game. But I do not think it is wrong for individuals to eercise their right to do so.

In my mind the real argument here should be along the notion of whether or not people attending court should be forced to view a religious document that they may or may not agree to.

I think it is appropriated in this case because The Ten Commandments are the basis for much of western law.
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#203321 - 24/08/03 07:14 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eoddvr:
The laws regarding "separation of church and state" are about preventing the government from forcing one particular religion upon the people. If is about Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion.
It means both.

Quote:
This is why God is mentioned in so many civil venues, like "In God we trust."
Find me one thing that says "In God We Trust" that was around in the first hundred years of this country's existence (hint - you can't). It wasn't even on coinage until the 1950s (it did make a couple appearances in the 1860s, but wasn't regularly on money). It wasn't passed as the national motto until the 1950s (you know...that McCarthy era).

Quote:

I think it is appropriated in this case because The Ten Commandments are the basis for much of western law.
Ironically, if you use the same argument other's use - that "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution or bill of rights... Find one mention of "God" in it. Hint - it's not there.
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#203322 - 24/08/03 07:29 AM Re: Alabama.
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
[b]Yea in 1802. In a letter.
That's a lot more evidence than some fictional words written 2000 years ago, or were they carved into stone by a lightining bolt, I forget.

The 10 Commandments are a nice set of moral recommendations for a civilized race to live by, but face it, this planet will never reach that level.[/b]
Evidence of what? Evidence that it is not in the constitution. The ten commandments are a good set of guidelines written by some dude 2000 years ago, yes, I get it.

There is a great deal of difference to the quote "seperation of church and state", and "build a wall of seperation between church and state." The first has finality, the second (and what was actually written) leaves room for interpretation.

No we can take this all sorts of ways. I am offended by rap music being played at loud volumes by cars with giant subwoofers. So maybe we should ban it. I am only a minority in this, but we must protect the offended minorities at all costs.

I have never been to court and felt intimidated or discriminated in any way because I was an atheist. In fact, the tenet of my religious beliefs were never even brought up.

The government, even if it has the commandments on the steps, can only be proven to be establishing a state religion if you can show actual bias against a person being tried in said courtroom because they are non jew/christian. You could then show "establishment" because obviously it would be beneficial to be the religion of the goverment.

On a side note, it is quite obvious that the majority of our government are practicing christians/jews. And, if anything, being a religious person in this country right now is quite an unpopular thing. So that hardly qualifies as establishment.

And as for "In God We Trust," will someone please explain to me how this establishes one religion over another. Which God?!

One more thing. When the founding fathers wrote that ammendment, you can be damn sure they were talking about different sects of christianity. This, after all is what many of them came over here for to begin with. So they could practice thier christianity in peace. Free from a state sponsored version of whatever type of christianity was sanctioned. Free from being persecuted for not following the government line.

It did not mean the government needed to be all atheists. It meant they could be whatever religion they wanted to be without forcing thier 'subjects' to be the same religion. I still do not see how having a ten commandments on a step forces people to be christian or jew. And if people feel like it does, then they should get their weak minds over it. And then prove to me how it has forced them to be jewish or christian.
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#203323 - 24/08/03 08:22 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
No we can take this all sorts of ways. I am offended by rap music being played at loud volumes by cars with giant subwoofers. So maybe we should ban it. I am only a minority in this, but we must protect the offended minorities at all costs.
I'm not sure I get this example. Yes, you CAN ban the volume. Just not the material. Plenty of cities have banned loud music.

Quote:
And as for "In God We Trust," will someone please explain to me how this establishes one religion over another. Which God?!
It doesn't. But is that the Christian God, or the the Muslim God, or the God that Deists believe in? To me, they are all the same. People just believe differently as to how to acknowledge it.

Quote:
One more thing. When the founding fathers wrote that ammendment, you can be damn sure they were talking about different sects of christianity. This, after all is what many of them came over here for to begin with. So they could practice thier christianity in peace.
How can anyone be sure? Isn't that what the courts grapple with all the time? A good portion of the founding fathers were indeed deists. Others, of course, were theists. There is a HUGE difference there.

Quote:
Free from a state sponsored version of whatever type of christianity was sanctioned. Free from being persecuted for not following the government line.

It did not mean the government needed to be all atheists. It meant they could be whatever religion they wanted to be without forcing thier 'subjects' to be the same religion.
Personally, I think you are confusing an employee of the government with the government itself. Nobody cares what the individual is, or what the individual does. Going by what you are saying (if I'm understanding it correctly) is that Bush should not be attending church - or at least it shouldn't be shown in pictures or television. But that isn't what the argument is about. It's that each individual is free to worship as they please, or be FREE from other people's beliefs. Bush goes to church as an individual, on his own free time (well, relatively speaking...how much free does he really have). He's not attending church at the Capitol building.

Quote:
I still do not see how having a ten commandments on a step forces people to be christian or jew. And if people feel like it does, then they should get their weak minds over it. And then prove to me how it has forced them to be jewish or christian.
But why does someone feel like it HAS to be there? Should they not get their weak minds over it and realize that spirituality/religion is within themselves and that is more powerful than any hunk of stone in a rotunda?

Not having it there is being secular (aka neutral). And that is what the government (not the employees of the government) should be.

WE are the employers of the government. How would you feel if one of your employees was a Wiccan, and decided they wanted to put a Wiccan monument in the middle of the foyer to your business? Would you allow it? Or would you ask them to keep it in their own office? Or, to keep it on a Judeo-Christian level, what if that employee wanted to put a crucifix on the wall of the lobby? It may not be the company's view, but it sure looks like it if it's on the lobby wall.
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#203324 - 25/08/03 05:59 AM Re: Alabama.
Xterrian Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
[qb] The rule of law is all that exists.
This is an incredibly ignorant statement. Judges make "judgement" calls. They define the law, they create laws, they interpret laws. QB]
Where and how exactly do Judges create laws?
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#203325 - 25/08/03 07:05 AM Re: Alabama.
20-100 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Quebec, QC, Canada
Quote:
In god we trust
This simple statement exclude all the polytheist religious people... At least, change it to "In god(s) we trust"

Now back to the case of the infamous rotunda stone... I'm not sure... if the judge know that I'm an apostat and atheist, maybe I will be judged more harshly than if I was in the choir of his church... but... if the stone is not there to show the bias of the judge... maybe I'll go to trial without knowing that the judge is biased...

IMHO, judges are human so permitting a judge to show his colors is ok, in the same way that a defense attorney will look at the records to see how a judge is doing with the kind of crime he have to defend. I guess it's possible to request a change of judge if a bias can be proven.

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#203326 - 25/08/03 05:49 PM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.

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#203327 - 25/08/03 06:19 PM Re: Alabama.
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:

One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.
I don't necessarily think this is true.

This is a debate that has been around for hundreds of years. Perhaps in theory, the origins of each religion can all be traced back to the Hebrew God. However the application and interpretations that have developed over the centuries are vastly different.

There are numerous members of each religion that would disagree with your statement.

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#203328 - 25/08/03 06:23 PM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.
I agree. (Scary! laugh )
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#203329 - 28/08/03 11:33 AM Re: Alabama.
coferj Offline
Member

Registered: 17/12/01
Posts: 713
Loc: Montgomery, AL
Well, thank goodness it's finally gone...but now there are lawsuits springing up from the supporters about the gov't infringing on the "freedom of religion" in the bill of rights.

Thing is, all these hicks want the statue to remain b/c they say it's freedom of religion, etc...well, being that it's a STATE building, and the STATE removed it, how is it infringing on THEIR rights??
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