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#203972 - 11/08/03 09:16 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
Having read Madman's last KY match with UZBad I am curious. Please tell us more about yourself Madman. I now you are not very interested for us to know who you really are, and that is ok. If I had a better insight on your background I might be able to understand your extreme radical views better. I agree with some of the stuff you have posted here over the years, But your hatred for anything non US, seems to expose a somewhat narrow minded person. I know you are extremely intelligent and spend a ton of times reading up on current events etc. What do you do for a living?. what kind of academic background do you have?. Hobbies?.

I am not trying to pull a fast one on you but I am seriously interested after reading your views on the Former Soviet Union and aparent hatred for Immigrants from there...

Claus smile
_________________________
Sharam can have my sister

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#203973 - 11/08/03 10:02 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus A Christensen:
Having read Madman's last KY match with UZBad I am curious. Please tell us more about yourself Madman. I now you are not very interested for us to know who you really are, and that is ok. If I had a better insight on your background I might be able to understand your extreme radical views better. I agree with some of the stuff you have posted here over the years, But your hatred for anything non US, seems to expose a somewhat narrow minded person. I know you are extremely intelligent and spend a ton of times reading up on current events etc. What do you do for a living?. what kind of academic background do you have?. Hobbies?.

I am not trying to pull a fast one on you but I am seriously interested after reading your views on the Former Soviet Union and aparent hatred for Immigrants from there...

Claus smile
I'd be interested too, for different reasons.
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#203974 - 11/08/03 11:26 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus A Christensen:

What do you do for a living?
I am a diversity trainer... [Uh Oh !]

Just kidding. You know my story. I have discussed it many times. Is your memory that poor? I remember your story.

I guess you can say I am sort of unemployed right now like Ian. I however am not in the same shape as him. I have a pension and some investment income so I am not that bad off. I do OK. Right now I do home improvement type work when it is available...build decks, do brickwork, paint house exteriors, etc. Whatever comes around. Right now I have been working on some woman's home ripping old cedar shingles from 2 of her sidewalls. That is on hold and I have plastic tarps and tar paper covering the side of her house. You need a sunny weather for that and it has rained a lot here or looks like it is going to rain any moment for the past week. The lady is a little pissed but too bad. I told her I would be back Wed. or Thurs.

Sometimes lately I go a few weeks and do nothing. During those times I like going to the driving range or the skeet shooting range if you want to know some hobbies I enjoy. I also enjoy reading, drinking at the local pub (sucks since you can't smoke in bars anymore. I am going less now) I go fishing sometimes (surf casting) for blues. I still tinker with computers but I find I have lost most interest in them.

I have a girlfriend that I have had a pretty rocky relationship the last six months. Basically since last Valentine's Day. She works rotating shifts in a hospital so things were great in the beginning because I can be wherever I want to be during the day and and this afforded us time to do a lot of things. She expected things to be getting more serious. I am not "in love". I like her and we usually have fun but I have noticed the older you get, the faster they want to accelerate things to the next level. In some ways we have been just stringing each other along these past months. I don't see us spending our lives together. I of course can not be direct about this with her...I skirt the issues...after all she is a woman. Where this is going... I don't know. Most likely no where. She sees it more everyday and this is a problem. We will see. But...it's not like this isn't the first time I have been through this.

I like working outside and with my hands. Can't take offices any more.

Do you have a poor memory? I have told my story here before. I remember your story. Maybe your memory is selective.

At 20 I quit school to join NYPD. I was on job for 11 years until a high profile incident that left me in half a body cast for months and the brass yanking their political chains. They kind of convinced me into an early medical retirement. They don't want "motivated" cops any more. My Lt. was more than happy to see me go. The Capt. too. When a guy becomes a ranking officer in the PD something happens to them. They become "political" assholes. They forget their oaths and betray the men in their charge which ever way the PC winds blow.

After that I went to work in computer field. Now that business is dead and I do other things to keep busy until something else turns up. I kind of like doing whatever the hell I want whenever I want. I guess I am kind of lucky. I have a lot of freedom to do what I want.

My political beliefs have always been the same. I have been interested in politics since childhood. Maybe I will run for office one day. That is a definite possiblity. I may have problems because I don't tow the party line. My political ideals are primarily based on my sense of right and wrong and a sense of morality. Something that is lacking in the world today and that it sad. I believe in individuals. I abhor any type of collectivist thought. It is rampant amongst the many socialist types today.

I hate socialists, communists, feminists, etc. I hate societies propensity for creating victimized clasess of people. It is all wrong. I hate the numerous ridiculous and insane things that go on in our society. It gets worse every day.

I guess that's it for now. I am all talked out for this post. Anything else you want to know?

My views are not extreme. By your standards and some other people here maybe. If anything I will concede that my presentation can be rough sometimes. Reality is rough and I think many people are in dire need of a good dose of it.

There are also too many "sheeple" in our society. If we had a very conservative media and entertainment industry in this country, those same "sheeple" would feel whatever they are told to feel on many issues affecting our society.

You can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time.

Does this satify your curiousity? There is more to me but this is the abridged version...

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#203975 - 11/08/03 11:43 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
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#203976 - 11/08/03 11:45 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Uzbad...

Medical insurance is not higher for immigrants. Americans also pay about $400 bucks a month for two people. The rates are charged by age and the overall health of the individuals involved. For example, a smoker will pay a little more.

No you can't deduct children living in other countries from your taxes here. There may be special circumstances but I am not aware of the government allowing this. Everyone would claim this and it would be difficult to track. It is too wide open for fraud and abuse. Can you blame them for not allowing this? It makes perfect sense to me.

And yes... you can collect Soc. Sec. and live in another country. As long as you paid in for all those years you are entitled. My parents had one of their neighbors move back to France 10 years ago. He was a retired printer. His pension and Soc. Sec. checks are sent to him in France. This is not a problem. It is done a lot. You are getting bad information. I suggest you go to your local SS office.

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#203977 - 11/08/03 11:47 AM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
IUScott Offline
Member

Registered: 17/11/01
Posts: 247
Loc: Chicago
Want some cheese with that wine!! [Finger]

smile
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#203978 - 11/08/03 12:00 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
FANOF5 Offline
Member

Registered: 22/04/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
Quote:
Originally posted by FANOF5:
[b]Are you suprised we want you out of the country. "Useless Angry American" Dude, it's not that bad. Do you think you are the only one who has ever been unemployed? Get over it, move on and find a better job.
I guess literacy isn't a big thing in Florida, this discussion is not about my employment.

But since you're so interested, could you go out tomorrow and find a job paying $80k a year ?
Do you think it's that easy ?[/b]
I am in the Engineering field, and yes, i could go out and make $80k a year. It became an issue about your employment when you blamed the country for your unemployment.You even said the USA is the reason you are in your finacial situation. Maybe you need to move closer to sea level buddy.
It's going to be okay dude. laugh laugh
_________________________
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#203979 - 11/08/03 12:03 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
FANOF5 Offline
Member

Registered: 22/04/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Quote:
Originally posted by Graham:
You idiots spent an entire weekend, sitting around a computer, arguing bullshit . . .

[Freak]

Don't you assholes own 4x4s?

Go drive them . . .
This is coming from a guy who has 4590 replies eek eek
_________________________
GENTLEMEN, START YOUR ENGINES!!!!

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#203980 - 11/08/03 12:07 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus A Christensen:

You know I never got that much info from you before, I never knew you were NYPD. Funny you should mention it, My Dad served 32 years in the Danish Police force and had much the same views like you, so I can see where you got it from (or must have got it from).

I have a hard time putting an exact title on your political side (other than fucked up some times ha ha ) that fits with you, not buying into everything Bush is doing.
Believe me, I don't like everything Bush is doing either. He is too liberal for me in some areas. Especially domestic issues. He spends money like it is going out of style and has expanded the government too much. Dept. of Homeland Security is a big joke. He is also scared of the criticism from liberals. In a way he should be, they have all the major media pushing for them. He should hold his ground on more issues. He does not. He flips flops to avoid the criticism and I also wish he would start firing more of the dead wood. I hate the way he is afraid to fire anyone who fucks up. Most of the fuckups responsible for 9/11 due to incompetance have been promoted and that is ridiculous.

The PD is not where I got any ideals from. The streets of NY just confirmed my ideals.

I remember having political discussions as a kid. I was always a political conservative even as a child. I used to have a politician in my family. She was from my mother's side. That wing of the family was very "left wing" ...definitely socialists, and I hated all of them for the ridiculous notions they would throw around. I was the only kid out of the entire extended family that ever called them on their bullshit. They didn't like me very much. It's embarrassing when a kid bests you in a political argument and actually is aware of issues.

I too can say your ideas are fucked up. That's the funny thing about perception. You have grown up with socialism. You don't know any better. Your father remembers a different time and saw first hand how evil socialists can be.

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#203981 - 11/08/03 12:28 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
RJ Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 780
Loc: 100 Mile House, BC
Quote:
Now the racism and real meaning of your statement "government policy" rears it's ugly head. I suspected it. That's what all you people mean when you say American policy.

You are an anti-semitic prick who blames everything on the Jews and Israel. You also think terrorism is caused by our support for Israel.

Anti-semitism is really big up there in Canada. Is it now the national sport? Should we let the Muslims kill all the jews? Would that make you feel better?

Anti-semitism is pretty huge with you socialist pricks in Canada and Europe.
I don't mean anything that has to do with race when I compare your government to Isreal's. What I mean is that you both hold this tough-ass ideal: if I am stronger than you military wise, then I'll do whatever the hell I want to you.

Sure, the Palestanians (sp) are not on the same level military wise, and therefore can't fight back. They only way to get their anger out is by sneaking up to Isreal and let their people feel what it is like to die from a bomb. Same with all the countries your government is trying to control. They cannot fight back, so the only way to get you back is to use terrorism. I don't like terrorism at all, but sometimes that's the only way others can make your government take notice.

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#203982 - 11/08/03 12:43 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus A Christensen:

You know I never got that much info from you before, I never knew you were NYPD. Funny you should mention it, My Dad served 32 years in the Danish Police force and had much the same views like you, so I can see where you got it from (or must have got it from).

I have a hard time putting an exact title on your political side (other than fucked up some times ha ha ) that fits with you, not buying into everything Bush is doing.
Believe me, I don't like everything Bush is doing either. He is too liberal for me in some areas. Especially domestic issues. He spends money like it is going out of style and has expanded the government too much. Dept. of Homeland Security is a big joke. He is also scared of the criticism from liberals. In a way he should be, they have all the major media pushing for them. He should hold his ground on more issues. He does not. He flips flops to avoid the criticism and I also wish he would start firing more of the dead wood. I hate the way he is afraid to fire anyone who fucks up. Most of the fuckups responsible for 9/11 due to incompetance have been promoted and that is ridiculous.

The PD is not where I got any ideals from. The streets of NY just confirmed my ideals.

I remember having political discussions as a kid. I was always a political conservative even as a child. I used to have a politician in my family. She was from my mother's side. That wing of the family was very "left wing" ...definitely socialists, and I hated all of them for the ridiculous notions they would throw around. I was the only kid out of the entire extended family that ever called them on their bullshit. They didn't like me very much. It's embarrassing when a kid bests you in a political argument and actually is aware of issues.

I too can say your ideas are fucked up. That's the funny thing about perception. You have grown up with socialism. You don't know any better. Your father remembers a different time and saw first hand how evil socialists can be.
Well, let me tell you one of the main reasons I decided to leave Denmark. Being a socialist Democratic country I had a very hard time when I joined the tax paying workforce.

I paid 54% (Fifty four percent) tax on an income that was about 30.700 US Dollars. Out of that I would get a small tax break for owing $130.000 on a mortgage that was 13% interest.

Post 2ndary education is free, PROVIDED you have the grades to be accepted. Which makes the competition impossible and leaves people studying for 3-5years more than they need to attain the grades or qualifying cources.

Welfare is out of control. You would be paid 80% of your last end salary for up to 2 years, with no cap, then be eligible to enter a re-educational program fully paid for which means they would pay you to go to school. again no incentive to get off your ass and take a less paying job to actually have a purpose in life.

Health Care is free. This is the only part I still am thankful for. My mother has had 2 strokes and a hard bout with lung cancer (Smoker), she is 62years of age and needs care. We have her in her own house with a nurse station for every 15 units, She gets meals delivered everyday and it is costing us less than $1000 a month. BUT it has also brought out all the people who are just abusing the system because they are lonely or somehting.

I have never been unemployed, I had my first part-time job when I was 13, sweeping floors at a factory, My first job in Canada paid $14.000 Canadian which is now slightly less than minimum wage, I wanted to break into the Travel industry without going to school so i had to accept it as was.

If being a Liberal is agreeing with some of the measures the newly elected Liberal Government in BC had to implement to avoid the province from going broke then yes, that is what I am. They had to do some deep cuts that hurt the fat ass union people, the healthcare sector and Government employees in general, What is unbelieveable to me is that most people here can not see past their own noses. I do not mind paying a gas tax if it actually helps our economy and put the province into a positive balance.

Buttom line:

I can't stand freeloathers, Racists, narrow minded people, people with no emphacitcs listening skills,

Hi I'm Claus. Nice to meet you...
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Sharam can have my sister

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#203983 - 11/08/03 12:47 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Graham:

PS -- Who pays $400/month for medical insurance? I pay $30/month through work, and before I had this job, right out of college, I paid for my own health insurance through Prudential -- $150 for one month.

$400 seems a tad elevated . . .
You are a little out of touch Graham. You can't always compare everything to yourself.

While I was a computer contractor, I and many of my peers were incorporated and had to pay our own taxes, insurance, etc. I didn't need the insurance but many guys were paying on average $260 a month for themselves. A guy who wanted insurance for his wife and himself would pay in the range of around $400 a month. I have known guys who insured their whole familes and this is in the range of $700-$800 a month for a good plan.

You're coverage at work is different. You just make a small partial payment. Company pays the rest. Plus big companies get bulk group rates. Also you can't compare the rates for a young college guy to a 35-40 year old guy. Then add on the cost of the family. It's very expensive.

That's what it is Graham. Maybe it is more expensive in the NY area. I don't know. There could be regional prices.

I had 7 stitches put in me a few months ago and I saw the bills. Everything with an x-ray came to about $1800. That is out of control. (One charge was $220 for some prick to look at the x-ray for 5 seconds) There is rampant fraud and price gouging in the medical profession. Plus all the forms insurance companies require means doctors have to hire more people to process this shit...which means the rates go up..and so on and so on....

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#203984 - 11/08/03 12:50 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Hmmm . . . okay, I can see that . . .

I stand corrected.

At least my cheap insurance will cover my hairplugs . . .

laugh
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Does anybody remember laughter?

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#203985 - 11/08/03 01:08 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Claus A Christensen:

I can't stand freeloathers, Racists, narrow minded people, people with no emphacitcs listening skills
Freeloaders, racists and narrow mindedness. You just described the Democratic Party. They however don't see their racism. They just like calling everyone who does not agree with them racists.

Moral relativists are the only ones who call people narrow minded. They lack a sense of morality and cannot distinguish right from wrong. Canada has an epidemic of this.

Claus... If you against all these government programs that enable freeloaders and provide freebies to everyone.... then I guess you are not as Liberal as you think.

Your definition of a liberal might not be the same as mine or that of most conservatives in this country. This is again a question of perception....

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#203986 - 11/08/03 01:44 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
CCX Offline
Member

Registered: 20/03/02
Posts: 808
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
I used the term racist, because we don't have a good word for someone like you who isn't tolerant of anyone who is different from you.
Yes there is, why not go here Mr. Madman, they might like you better.

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2796516023&cpv=1

At the top of my screen it says Xterra Owners Club, I'm not sure what you see.
_________________________
Calxterra.com

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#203987 - 11/08/03 02:18 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
Madman is not a fascist, not even close.
_________________________
Chirpa Chirpa Bockala!

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#203988 - 11/08/03 02:28 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
XOC Offline
Admin
Member
*****

Registered: 16/08/00
Posts: 17102
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
I never blamed the government for my current job status, I blamed them for my financial situation, namely the IRS.
You guys can't honestly say you like that arm of our government can you ?

Back in 1997-1998 they fucked up the incorporation of my company and I had to file as a sole proprietor which means 60+% income tax, even though I was paying salaries. I was limited to deducting only $18k in expenses, even though I had over $120k in expenses.

I'm still paying them $1000 a month to pay off the balance, and will be for quite some time.

5 years * $1000 a month = $60k I would much rather have in savings.
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nom nom nom

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#203989 - 11/08/03 04:15 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Moral relativists are the only ones who call people narrow minded. They lack a sense of morality and cannot distinguish right from wrong.
If I'm a moral relativist as you say, then I think I can safely say, "ummmm....no."

I know right from wrong as it pertains to me. You're right from wrong is different. The big difference - I know that people have different morals, and it's not up to me to decide for them.

LDS member aren't supposed to drink or smoke. That's what they believe to be morally right. Catholics, on the other hand, are not prohibited from doing those very same things. Moral relativism.

The Catholic Church does not believe in artificial birth control. In the Episcopal Church they are acceptable. Moral relativism.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't supposed to use traditional medicine. The Methodist church has no issues with it. Moral relativism.

Some do not approve of medical marijuana. Some do. Moral relativism.

Here's the kicker that shocked me:
The OFFICIAL view of the Episcopal Church on Abortion

And that's the church that is jokingly referred to as "Catholic Lite - All the pomp, half the guilt." Moral relativism. (*of course, I'm sure you'll say the Episcopals have no room to talk, as they just elected a gay bishop.)
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#203990 - 11/08/03 06:10 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Moby....

I am flattered that you always quote my posts and continue the debate to the next level. I guess I should be thankful you are not calling me a racist or facist every post. It seems contagious around here.... Well here we go....

Why do you always have to bring religion into every debate here on XOC? That is somewhat disturbing. Your disdain for the various flavors of the Christian faith has been duly noted in the numerous threads that have covered this subject.

I am skeptical of your link. It is a website for some kind of medical training. Doctors are in no way paragons of virtue just by the very fact that they are doctors. Abortion is a huge money maker for many. A doctor who is a truly moral man does not perform abortions. I also could not find anything related to non-Christian religions and their stance on abortion on that site. I found this interesting and so should you. If anything relating to other religions exists on the site, please post it. I tend to doubt it because the main target for attacks is Christianity and Judaism.

Many doctors have no sense of morality. This is prevalent especially in research doctors. Does cloning and genetic engineering of human life sound like a moral pursuit to you? If you are a moral relativist than you would think it is OK because you would have a neutral position on the issue. You would have a neutral position on all issues. Doctors are bad examples. You would probably find more morality amongst auto mechanics than the same numerical sample of doctors.

Religion is not the one and only foundation for morals in a society. You can be a moral man without being a religious individual. If there is not a shared set of moral values amongst the majority of the citizenry in any society, that society will become polarized and eventually fracture and fall apart. Such as what is happening to our society.

The Moral Relativism I speak of is this insane notion that everyone has a different sense of right and wrong. Some believe there is no right and wrong. They believe right and wrong are not absolute values, but are to be decided by the individual and can change from one situation or circumstance to the next. This is insanity.

Now do you know what moral relativism is? Does this help you at all? Is this what you believe?

"The worst place in hell is reserved for those who are neutral in times of crisis".....Dante Alighieri

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#203991 - 11/08/03 06:14 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
FANOF5 Offline
Member

Registered: 22/04/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
I never blamed the government for my current job status, I blamed them for my financial situation, namely the IRS.
You guys can't honestly say you like that arm of our government can you ?

Back in 1997-1998 they fucked up the incorporation of my company and I had to file as a sole proprietor which means 60+% income tax, even though I was paying salaries. I was limited to deducting only $18k in expenses, even though I had over $120k in expenses.

I'm still paying them $1000 a month to pay off the balance, and will be for quite some time.

5 years * $1000 a month = $60k I would much rather have in savings.
I might bicker with you, but i really do hope you find a job. I have never been unemployed, so i can only assume it sucks. I hope things work out for ya, honestly.
_________________________
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#203992 - 11/08/03 07:07 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Moby....

Why do you always have to bring religion into every debate here on XOC? That is somewhat disturbing. Your disdain for the various flavors of the Christian faith has been duly noted in the numerous threads that have covered this subject.
I only brought those religions into it, because they are examples of different morals. They have set "standards." I can't bring individuals into it, because you'd immediately say, "yeah, but those people are obviously idiots" (or something along those lines). I'm not bringing religion in to bash it. And I have said many times that I have no problem with religion in and of itself. I have problems with religion, ANY religion, trying to push it's beliefs on others.

Quote:
I am skeptical of your link. It is a website for some kind of medical training. Doctors are in no way paragons of virtue just by the very fact that they are doctors. Abortion is a huge money maker for many. A doctor who is a truly moral man does not perform abortions. I also could not find anything related to non-Christian religions and their stance on abortion on that site. I found this interesting and so should you. If anything relating to other religions exists on the site, please post it.
I'm not concerned with what each religion thinks. This was the OFFICIAL resolution of the Episcopal Church. How about this link, instead:

Read the first sentence - "The Episcopal...bortion rights"

Quote:
Many doctors have no sense of morality. This is prevalent especially in research doctors. Does cloning and genetic engineering of human life sound like a moral pursuit to you? If you are a moral relativist than you would think it is OK because you would have a neutral position on the issue.
I personally do not think cloning or genetic engineering should be done.

Quote:
You would have a neutral position on all issues.
Wrong. I have my positions, but I also know others have theirs. Some say abortion is wrong. That's fine. But don't tell me if I'm a woman that I can't have one. I don't tell you you HAVE to have one. If you don't want to do that, then don't.

Quote:
Doctors are bad examples. You would probably find more morality amongst auto mechanics than the same numerical sample of doctors.
You don't know very many doctors, then. I grew up with them all around me. And I guarantee the percentages are about the same. I could always argue that very few mechanics are "moral." I see too many try to jack people for repairs that aren't needed - just a way to get more money out of people.

Quote:
Religion is not the one and only foundation for morals in a society.
I don't disagree. But religion is where you see those morals given out to everyone, where the Priest talks about it every Sunday. It's just the easiest example to show.

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The Moral Relativism I speak of is this insane notion that everyone has a different sense of right and wrong. Some believe there is no right and wrong. They believe right and wrong are not absolute values, but are to be decided by the individual and can change from one situation or circumstance to the next. This is insanity.
They are absolute values. But my absolute is not the same as yours. You are pro-death penalty. I am not. Which is *morally* right?

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Now do you know what moral relativism is? Does this help you at all? Is this what you believe?
I already knew what it was.

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"The worst place in hell is reserved for those who are neutral in times of crisis".....Dante Alighieri
"A man does not show his greatness by being at one extremity, but rather by touching both at once.".....Blaise Pascal
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#203993 - 11/08/03 07:46 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
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Moby...

The new link you posted was again for a Christian faith...The Episcopal Church. I was looking for a non-Christian link from the original medical site. My point being moral relativism is a form of rejection of Judeo/Christian values. It is also primarily a Western phenomenon. Did you post the Episcopal link because it supports your values? Why are you not concerned with other religions? Is abortion not an issue in any of them? (Make it brief...we've had enough abortion threads)

I've met plenty of doctors in my life. Most through my past job. You may be right about the percentage of doctors with morals and values vs general population. The ones you knew growing up were probably more like Marcus Welby. Many big city doctors up here are not. We have many criminals with M.D.s. I guess you do too.

Religion does dictate morals. We all know that, but I have known many people who grew up with no religion who are moral people.

I am really not sure you understand the concept of moral relativism. Comparing my values and yours has nothing to do with it. Moral Relativism in a nutshell is Neutral Thinking.

You have values and ideals. You are not a moral relativist per se... but you do seem to embrace it when it suits you. You have judged me for judging others. So has half this message board. This is a tenet of moral relativism.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think you are a bad person or vacuous of any sense of morality.... We just see things differently.

Hey....we're just talking right.

I have a quote also seeing that you think I am some kind of extremist...

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"......Barry M. Goldwater

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#203994 - 11/08/03 07:54 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Moby...

The new link you posted was again for a Christian faith...The Episcopal Church. I was looking for a non-Christian link from the original medical site. My point being moral relativism is a form of rejection of Judeo/Christian values. It is also primarily a Western phenomenon. Did you post the Episcopal link because it supports your values? Why are you not concerned with other religions? Is abortion not an issue in any of them? (Make it brief...we've had enough abortion threads)
Oh no, I was just trying to point out that even within Christianity, there are differences in what people's morals are.

Quote:
I've met plenty of doctors in my life. Most through my past job. You may be right about the percentage of doctors with morals and values vs general population. The ones you knew growing up were probably more like Marcus Welby. Many big city doctors up here are not. We have many criminals with M.D.s. I guess you do too.
Actually, I don't doubt that. Today I'm sure it's worse than it used to be. My roommate in college was planning on becoming a doctor. But his primary reason was money. That's just the wrong reason, to me.

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Religion does dictate morals. We all know that, but I have known many people who grew up with no religion who are moral people.
One of this board, I dare say - Samueul.

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I am really not sure you understand the concept of moral relativism. Comparing my values and yours has nothing to do with it. Moral Relativism in a nutshell is Neutral Thinking.
In that sense, no, we aren't speaking of the same thing. In your view, it's basically saying, "well, whatever." Correct? My view - each person has different morals, and they are different, relative to someone else's.

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You have values and ideals. You are not a moral relativist per se... but you do seem to embrace it when it suits you. You have judged me for judging others. So has half this message board. This is a tenet of moral relativism.
Now, I think I can honestly say that while everyone knows you and I don't agree on a lot of things (almost nothing, probably...who knows), I've never said anything bad about you, at least not purposely. Most of my comments are meant to keep an actual discussion going. I *want* to know what people think, even if it's 180 degrees from my views.

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Don't get me wrong. I don't think you are a bad person or vacuous of any sense of morality.... We just see things differently.

Hey....we're just talking right.
Exactly.

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I have a quote also seeing that you think I am some kind of extremist...

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"......Barry M. Goldwater
It wasn't really directed at you, but at the quote you had. (Though I won't deny that *I* think a lot of your views are extreme.)
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#203995 - 11/08/03 08:03 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:

Though I won't deny that *I* think a lot of your views are extreme
That's funny. It's not the first time I've heard that here, but no one ever brings up any direct examples. I just hear the blanket statement.

To someone on the left, yeah sure I seem extreme. That in no way surprises me. They seem extreme to me also.

Any examples.... (Damn...you're buddy O'Reilly is on now. Is he extreme?)

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#203996 - 11/08/03 08:16 PM Re: Daddy, why did we have to attack Iraq?
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:

Though I won't deny that *I* think a lot of your views are extreme
That's funny. It's not the first time I've heard that here, but no one ever brings up any direct examples. I just hear the blanket statement.

To someone on the left, yeah sure I seem extreme. That in no way surprises me. They seem extreme to me also.

Any examples.... (Damn...you're buddy O'Reilly is on now. Is he extreme?)
O'Reilly? No, he's not that extreme. He just puts out some incorrect info, and when he is called on it, doesn't retract. And while he says his show is a "spin-free" zone, he is a master at it...shutting off people's mics, shouting them down, not letting them finish their views.

Examples of yours? I guess the most glaring (to me) is the perceived generalization that muslims are bad. I have gotten the impression that you think the religion is inherently bad.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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