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#204060 - 26/08/03 03:07 PM Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Sean Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2089
Loc: Billerica, MA
I think this would be a good topic for debate, but first, here is a link to the latest on this subject:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-08-25-guns-cockpit_x.htm

Personally, I feel that "undercover" law enforcement personal should be the only ones allowed to carry firearms on a public jet liner. Just because a pilot knows how to "fire" a weapon, doesn't mean he or she should be able to use one on board a plane full of passengers. There are many other considerations one has to take in account (pertaining to the subdual of a "terrorist") that only a professionally trained expert in this area would know. My question is why does the weapon of choice for the pilots be a gun? Why not a Tazor or another instrument like it be implemented instead? Think about it, a firearm spraying bullets in a presserized cabin definitly doesn't sound like the best choice.
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#204061 - 26/08/03 04:08 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
NthLJ Offline
Member

Registered: 28/09/01
Posts: 1297
Loc: Reno, NV USA
There are bullets that deal with the pressurized cabin issue.

Personally I would like to see a guy with a flame thrower up front. If the passengers don't stand up and take care of the problem, fry a couple of rows [Freak] smile
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#204062 - 26/08/03 05:47 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
MichaelShaw Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 244
Loc: Dallas, TX
and aren't the vast majority of airline pilots ex-military? if so they are already quite familiar with a sidearm and how to use it. I dont see a problem with aircrews being armed... if a "problem passenger" can get through the supposedly much reinforced cockpit door you know he isnt messing around, and I dont think the pilots should have to mess around in dealing with them.
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#204063 - 26/08/03 05:51 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
There is no guarantee that a Taser gun will completely stop a terrorist or any suspect for that matter. Plus I think the cartridges available will only go about 20 feet. A taser gun didn't stop Rodney King. These weapons will stop the overwhelming majority of people but not everyone. A well placed bullet will stop anyone.

Let's face facts Sean. You are against anyone possesing a handgun.

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#204064 - 26/08/03 07:01 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
jaws_o_life Offline
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Registered: 25/08/02
Posts: 372
Loc: RVA
Pilots are pilots, cops are cops. There is a reason for this. I would like to hear what career pilots or police officers on this board have to say about the prospect of a dual role.
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#204065 - 26/08/03 07:04 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
Like was said before, I would think that a majority of airline pilots are ex-military. So one would think they would be familiar with weapons, especially small arms. I have always thought, if anyone should have guns, its the pilots.
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#204066 - 26/08/03 07:27 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
rrdstarr Offline
Member

Registered: 28/09/00
Posts: 2703
Loc: Tacoma
Hey, just do what they do on Star Trek. Anestisine(sp) gas! Terrorists, flight attentandants and passengers wake up at their destination wondering what the hell happened?
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#204067 - 26/08/03 07:39 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
ChuckH Offline
Member

Registered: 27/02/01
Posts: 5206
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
Like was said before, I would think that a majority of airline pilots are ex-military. So one would think they would be familiar with weapons, especially small arms. I have always thought, if anyone should have guns, its the pilots.
I agree 100% and support pilots having guns.
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#204068 - 26/08/03 08:04 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Guido Offline
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Registered: 25/01/01
Posts: 1438
Loc: Albertville, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaelShaw:
and aren't the vast majority of airline pilots ex-military?
This may have been true in the past, but I don't think it is as true anymore.

I am not against them having guns, but only after extensive training (such as what the police have to pass). Like Sean said, there are other things to worry about than just taking out the bad guy (putting a hole in the fuselage, a stray bullet hitting a passenger, or the terrorist taking the gun away from the pilot),
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#204069 - 26/08/03 09:13 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
20-100 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Quebec, QC, Canada
If I rember well (I have only visited one once) the cockpit of an airliner is small and full on instruments, levers, switches, etc...

I'm not sure even a properly trained person can move enough to do something usefull with a gun... while piloting a plane...

I prefer undercover armed air marshall(s) or some of the flight attendant properly trained and armed.

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#204070 - 26/08/03 09:46 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Ruger1022 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 723
Loc: Visalia, CA
I support the idea of pilots with guns, I support the idea of flight attendents with guns(both properly trained of course), I support the idea of civil law enforcement carring guns when they fly(as I understand it now, even cops can't fly with a gun), basicly, I like the idea of people other than the terrorists being armed. I agree that Bubba, or even myself, should probably not be allowed to stash a gun in my carry-on. The fact remains that when you're dealing with someone who has decided to die for their cause, there is not much you can do to 'deter' them, however, letting them die for no particular reason(ie; before their "cause" can be realized) is still a very powerful tool on your side. You can't reason with them, you can't negotiate, they've decide to throw life away, what can you offer? All you can do is hold a gun to them and say "you'll still die, you'll just die a failure"
MV

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#204071 - 26/08/03 11:15 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
You know something.....

If we actually did some common sense things prior to letting anyone board an aircraft there would be less of a need for pilots to be armed.

First off.... We need to profile all passengers boarding every flight. This crap of frisking 80 year old ladies is total bullshit.

Second... Have you seen the people who do the screening at the airports? Most of them can't speak too much English in the first place and on top of that the majority are so stupid they couldn't even work in a fast food place without fucking up every order. Making them federal employees was a real idiot decision. The feds kept lowering the standards to bring all the same idiots on board. Plus they will soon be given the same federal union status which basically makes these people impossible to fire or remove from their jobs. Just like the untold thousands of do nothing dead wood federal employees. The TSA is a total sham.

Third.... The airlines load up passenger planes with all types of commercial cargo. A lot of this stuff is not thoroughly checked. All terrorists have to do is blow up four or five planes in the same day and all flights will be grounded for a period of time. Afterwards no one will fly for a while and the airlines would be crying bankruptcy and looking for billions in federal handouts...AGAIN. This will hurt our economy and the terrorists will score a win.

Fourth.... Most of the employees that clean the planes, load food and the aforementioned cargo are not long time residents of the U.S. A lot are not even citizens. I don't give two fucking shits what any of the PC crowd says... but it is almost impossible to do a thorough background check on anyone that has not resided in this country for a good portion of his life. What good is a background check if you only know the last couple of years of an employees life and have to take the rest at his/her word. That is even if these companies that contract with the airlines and airports even bother to take the time or spend the money to even do a background check. I doubt it.

Fifth... Has every plane that lands in the U.S. (Domestic, Foreign and Charter) been upgraded with reinforced bullet proof cockpit doors? I seriously doubt that. If every plane had them, there would be less of a need for guns in the cockpit. No one would be able to gain access. There are other ways to bring a plane down without gaining access to the cockpit, but it would not be a controlled crash. The bastards that think they will be screwing 72 virgins upon their death want to crash into specific targets.

Sixth... Any foreign visitor to the U.S. must obtain a valid entry visa in his country of origin prior getting on a plane bound for the U.S. This business of letting everyone into the country on a 30 or 60 day stamped visa at the airport is total bullshit in today's world. The federal government has gotten somewhat smarter by recently requiring this of visitors from some known Middle Eastern terrorist supporting nations. But let's face it. Serious terrorists can just get phoney documents making them look like citizens of any other country not on the ban (another way profiling can help). The travel industry lobby is very guilty on this level. Fuck them. National security comes before some travel agent's bank account.

We need common sense people... If you want better security we need some legal tools. WE NEED PROFILING of passengers at airports. Profiling is and always has been an effective law enforcement tool. It is now forbidden by the radical left and being bred out of new police recruits. Any airport or airline worker who goes anywhere near a plane must be able to pass a verifiable background check that goes a lot farther than two weeks ago.

There will never be security as long as leftist PC madness rules the day. Everyone knows who wants to crash airplanes into prime targets to hurt us....and they have made it known that they wish to do it again....and they will. Does anyone think we are actually a society that cares about security when people of certain ethnic persuassions are winning lawsuits because their feelings were hurt. A Secret Service officer even sued because he felt he was "profiled" and singled out because of his ethnicity. He won his suit, kept his job and pocketed a sizeable amount of cash.

The terrorists know our fucked up PC culture and laugh at us. They use it in their favor. 9/11 would never have happened if this type of thinking was not rampant.

There will never be security and we are doomed for more days like 9/11. It's almost 2 years now and almost nothing has been done on the domestic front. The only thing that has happened is that some people who felt "offended" have gotten rich from lawsuits. The politicians don't give two shits either. All they care about is pandering for votes and campaign cash. Very few could care less about security.

So.... Until we throw PC bullshit aside and every cockpit is secure.... I say give the pilots guns. What does it matter if they were in the military or not? Weapons training is not that hard unless you are a stupid, clumsy, accident prone clod. If they are... should these people be flying commercial planes?

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#204072 - 27/08/03 03:00 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
I agree with what Madman says. Much more can be done besides putting a gun on a plane. There are many disarming techniques that are fast and effective. Unless the pilot is a navy seal he would lose the gun. As much as the terrorists train for an event if they knew a gun was on the plane they would work it into the plan and it would be theirs. I carry a gun everyday and am a master firearms instructor but still would not want to have to place a bullet center mass of a terrorist in a plane with upwards of 200 people yelling and screaming.

The problem lies on the ground plain and simple. Secure the doors to the cabin profile the people who actually commit the crimes against us. A friend of mine just went to Germany and back. She is 501 100 pounds white female. She was searched both times she went through the gate coming and going. They said it was random. It is nuts.
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#204073 - 27/08/03 04:23 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Olegkha Offline
Member

Registered: 30/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Madman: Not too many americans want to take a job at Airport security
wana know why ?

because the salary is too low ( and they are too LAZY to work for a small salary, they will flap their mouth and do nothing , but will not work for small salary! )

I worked in JFK security for about 6 month, and then i was transfered to a different part of the company that i worked for ( still inside of the airport )
80 % of security personal in Delta terminal was NON american natives
and 10 % of those had LOTS of Language problems
( This holds true for All terminals )

So unleas the rates will go up, we will not see american people working there (4 years ago salary was 6 $ )

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#204074 - 27/08/03 05:14 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Trihead Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 1669
Loc: Austin Texas
NY Madman....I truly believe this is the first time I have totally agreed with an entire post or yours. laugh Well said.

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#204075 - 27/08/03 06:26 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
seamonkey Offline
Member

Registered: 07/02/01
Posts: 1323
Loc: Boerne, TX
My brother-in-law is a airline pilot. He used to be a police officer and I dont think there would be any problem with him carry in a pistol.

The safety rounds are Glaser Safety Slugs

The pilots call the TSA, "Thousands Standing Around". A 20 year old TSA agent took his finger nail clipper from him, citing it was a weapon. He looked at them like, "I'm flying the plane and could run it into the ground if I wanted to."
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#204076 - 27/08/03 07:26 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Sean Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2089
Loc: Billerica, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:

Let's face facts Sean. You are against anyone possesing a handgun.
Not true. I've NEVER stated I was against people posessing firearms, as long as a proper background check is conducted prior to the purchase of said weapon. What I AM against is non-military personel posessing military designed weapons (i.e. AK-47 assault rifles and the likes). I personally do not own a hand gun, not because I'm against them, but because I have no need for one.
_________________________
Ned Flanders: "Some people say being a cave man is old fashioned, then I guess I'm just a cave man...if they existed....which they didn't."

My Former 2001 Xterra SE 4x4 With Modifications

My Ex-Xterra Web Site

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#204077 - 27/08/03 07:55 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Andre the Giant Offline
Member

Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
Let the pilots carry a firearm. I trust the pilots with my life every time I get on the plane. Geez, if the pilot wanted to kill the passengers on the plane, he or she could just overpower the co-pilot and ram the plane into a mountian while the flight attendants frantically try to ascertain what's going on through the bullet proof door. There have only been a few of instances where a pilot purposely crashed a jetliner... most of them involve Egyptian or Saudi pilots. :rolleyes:
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#204078 - 27/08/03 07:59 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
babyX Offline
Member

Registered: 20/04/01
Posts: 2852
I'd rather see cops stationed on every plane than arm the pilots. I want the pilot to concentrate on flying the damn plane, not taking down a terrorist.
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#204079 - 27/08/03 10:03 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
TravelingFool Offline
Member

Registered: 17/10/00
Posts: 6013
Loc: Prior Lake, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by jaws_o_life:
Pilots are pilots, cops are cops. There is a reason for this. I would like to hear what career pilots or police officers on this board have to say about the prospect of a dual role.
Shit... this argument won't take you too far! Most pilots I've ever met (I used to be a Platinum frequent traveller with Northwest) are responsible ex-military folks who'd be VERY comfortable with a sidearm.

Most cops I've ever dealt with (most, not all) are under-educated immature "bullies" on a power trip who shouldn't have been given a gun in the first place.

I believe that all cops are under-paid. If you paid them well and raised the requirements about what it takes to be a cop, we'd be better off.

In any case, give the pilots guns... all of them. At the very least, assign one gun per cockpit or one per captain.
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#204080 - 27/08/03 10:36 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Andre the Giant Offline
Member

Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
Quote:
Originally posted by babyX:
I'd rather see cops stationed on every plane than arm the pilots. I want the pilot to concentrate on flying the damn plane, not taking down a terrorist.
Putting armed cops on a plane, in the cabin is kinda stupid if you ask me. I don't want the guns accessable to the terrorists. All they would have to do is subdue the cop, take the gun, then who's in charge? Keep the guns in the cockpit, where they are secure. The pilots are the last line of defense. If the passengers are unable to subdue the bad guys, one of the pilots should have the means to do so.

There are two pilots on every flight... more than enough to fly the plane, AND take care of blowing a terrorist away.

Do you fly very often? I do, and I'd venture to say most of those who fly are completely comfortable with the idea of armed pilots.

The biggest question is... Why not arm the pilots? What is the harm in doing so?
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You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.
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#204081 - 27/08/03 11:04 AM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
babyX Offline
Member

Registered: 20/04/01
Posts: 2852
Quote:
Originally posted by Andre the Giant:
Putting armed cops on a plane, in the cabin is kinda stupid if you ask me. I don't want the guns accessable to the terrorists. All they would have to do is subdue the cop, take the gun, then who's in charge? Keep the guns in the cockpit, where they are secure. The pilots are the last line of defense. If the passengers are unable to subdue the bad guys, one of the pilots should have the means to do so.

There are two pilots on every flight... more than enough to fly the plane, AND take care of blowing a terrorist away.

Do you fly very often? I do, and I'd venture to say most of those who fly are completely comfortable with the idea of armed pilots.

The biggest question is... Why not arm the pilots? What is the harm in doing so?
I don't know if I fly "often", but I do take several cross-country flights each year, and I am more than happy thinking NOBODY on the plane has a gun on them (supposedly). I would prefer it stay that way. Keep the friggin' weapons and terrorists off the planes in the first place.

I don't suppose it'll be long before we're all X-rayed, like in Total Recall.
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#204082 - 27/08/03 01:38 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
Andre the Giant Offline
Member

Registered: 28/06/01
Posts: 2081
Loc: Cape Girardeau, MO
Do you not trust the pilots with a weapon? If so, then why do you even get on the plane? If they are so untrustworthy, why trust your life to them? It sounds like a pretty irrational fear to me.
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You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.
--Frank Zappa

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#204083 - 27/08/03 01:49 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
babyX Offline
Member

Registered: 20/04/01
Posts: 2852
Which pilots? The drunk ones or the sober ones?
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#204084 - 27/08/03 01:50 PM Re: Pilots With Guns: Good Idea, or Not?
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
NY Madman had the best answer, one I've been saying to anyone who will listen since about September 12, 2001 . . .

The airlines need better doors to the cockpit. Guns don't matter a damn if the terrorists can't get on the flightdeck.

If the terrorists are armed, can they kill some passengers? Yes.
Can they kill all the passengers? Yes.
Can they depressurize the plane? Yes.

Can they take control and fly the fucking thing into a high-rise office building or miltary complex, killing thousands and throwing the country into a full-on pant-shitting frenzy? Fuck no . . .

What did the 9/11 guys have? Box cutters?
Maybe if the doors weren't cardboard, it wouldn't have happened . . .
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