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#206457 - 01/10/03 10:12 AM it was a reasonably simple question...
wordtothis Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 830
Loc: atlanta
yeah,
so i just got off of the phone with calmini.
you know, i love their stuff, they make a great product and they also don't stick out in my head as people with bad customer service... but the guy answering the phone just hung-up on me and was being really short with me and it pissed me off. i don't want to hear about short-staffing or time differences, i am the customer and i am what keeps the company going and i needed to ask a question and couldn't. i just wanted to ask where their shocks were made and THEN one more question...
first of all, i KNOW that they do not make a steering stabilizer for the x, they make a complete steering kit, i am not going to pay $500 for it, i want a stabilizer like i had on my trooper that THEY MADE. so, i got the brackets from rancho that fit the x and after seeing that rancho's kit for the trooper used the same shock, i wanted to start with asking to find out if the shock with the calmini kit from my trooper would fit on the X, he then told me, [once he came back on the phone,] that "we do not make a steering stabilizer for that vehicle." well, before i could say, "i know that, that is why i was asking for someone with the technical knowledge, or whether or not i needed to call the other line..." he jacked me onto hold, without even saying hold on or anything.
anyway, i am pissed and i hope that someone else starts making idler arm braces because that is the ONLY thing i need to buy for the X right now and i'll be damned if CALMINI isn't the only company making them.

anyway, i'll probably cool off, but if anyone is willing to help me, i would appreciate it.

david mad

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#206458 - 01/10/03 10:17 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
SLR makes an idler arm brace.

spencerlowracing.com
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#206459 - 01/10/03 10:21 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
So does AC. If you want to talk shop with someone at Calmini ask for Steve. He is the owner and he has talked to me for hours before.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#206460 - 01/10/03 10:26 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
Carlton McMillan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 2966
Loc: MN
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunX:
SLR makes an idler arm brace.

spencerlowracing.com
Order now and you might get it by next year..

but only if you pay twice..
_________________________
SAS - It's what your Xterra wants for Christmas.

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#206461 - 01/10/03 10:42 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
Quote:
Originally posted by Carlton McMillan:
Order now and you might get it by next year..

Just like the Calmini steering system that was on the site for 8 months before anyone saw one? How happy were the first group with theirs? I guess "CALMINI blue" doesn't work best with everything does it?

Get your facts straight before you bash.

How many items have YOU ordered from SLR yourself Carlton? Me myself , I've purchased the steering , the lift , fiberglass and shocks twice.

My experience with SLR has been fantastic. Tell me about YOUR experiences with SLR. After repeated problems with other people's experience with improper allignment with SLR upper arms , Spencer sent me THREE sets of arms with varying degrees of caster in the attempt to find the correct specifications once and for all. He paid to have them installed and pictures were taken and new specs were made. He designed a new fixture based on my requirements so that all new arms he sends out will have proper allignment.

Everything was shipped on time and with all items included and it all performs perfectly. ]

Tell me all about your expereinces with SLR. As wonderfull as Calmini is , as happy with their lift and steering everyone seems to be , tell me when the last time they came out with a NEW product for the X. Take a look at the CALMINI site and then take a look at the SLR site and then tell me which company is making a bigger effort to create MORE and NEWER products for our trucks.

Doing a SAS on a 7 year old hardbody is hardly making progress for our late model Nissans is it?

A few people have recieved shipments later than they anticipated. There have been backorder and production delays at SLR. But how does that compare to a company putting products on their site and collecting money for them 6 months to a YEAR before producing a production piece and filling orders?

How many NEW products has Calmini produced for your truck compared to their line for Samis and the Full Traction line? This is by no means to bash Calmini . I like Calmini and when I met Steve he seemed like a really good guy who is willing to talk shop until the cows come home. The more companies making parts the better , but your constantly bashing the one company who's SOLE PRIMARY focus is producing the widest variety of NEW products for our trucks is totally ignorant.

I don't care if you don't like Spencer personally , item for item they are doing MORE for Nissan than ANYONE else in the aftermarket.
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#206462 - 01/10/03 11:02 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
Carlton McMillan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 2966
Loc: MN
Well.. I am not going to bring up my fun experiance that I had with SLR JR with my Shocks..

Considering all the problems that people have had with them CONTNUALLY I would avoid them like the plague. It was SLR SR that built that company into an upstanding business and SLR Jr. that is tearing it down.

Anyway.. here is some reading of recent SLR events.. And note that some of this is NOT from this board.

Some thoughts on SLRs customer service and products
http://nissanoffroad.net/messageboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6538

some observations on how SLR says they are going to produce something then does not

http://www.xterraownersclub.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=002173#000000

And what ever happend with this??
http://www.xterraownersclub.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=60;t=000110#000000

And there are PLENTY of people here on this and other boards that have had CRAPPY service and such from SLR. Perhaps in the past I was one of few that was having problems with them but now I seem to be in the majority.
_________________________
SAS - It's what your Xterra wants for Christmas.

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#206463 - 01/10/03 11:05 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
That is a laugh. I have read posts from MANY people that are having problems with SLR, especially recently. Items not shipped promptly or at all, not being able to contact them, and of course they totally ripped of Calmini's a arm design.

What wonderful new products is SLR selling? Calmini has recently introduced their AFFORDABLE steering solution and t-case gears. They never collected money from anyone before they shipped out the steering. I got mine first and have been happy with it ever since. The t-case gears they are selling are one of the single best products that has been made to improve the off road performance of our vehicles.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#206464 - 01/10/03 11:13 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
wordtothis Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 830
Loc: atlanta
Quote:
Originally posted by 2001frontier:
What wonderful new products is SLR selling? Calmini has recently introduced their AFFORDABLE steering solution and t-case gears.
hmmm... $539.95 (10-1-03, 2:10 p.m.) Calmini Steering Upgrade System VS. $51.00 (9-30-03, 6:00 p.m.) Four Wheel Parts shipped Rancho steering stabilizer bracket, and use of old strut from Calmini steering stabilizer for Isuzu {Free} [Thanks Kyle at 4WP, and also Kyle at High Country 4X4 for finally giving me an answer.]
I think the cheap bastards who only want to pay $50 bucks have it over the rich folks who have an extra $530 lying around and then, OH there's shipping too...
Yeah, $50 is cheaper than $530+ anyday...
david

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#206465 - 01/10/03 11:19 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
Well it looks like you are 0 for three. If that was the extent of your retort you're reaching. In link number one there are as many negative things said about Calmini as there are SLR.

Yes things ship slow. Yes sometimes he takes his sweet ass time getting things shipped. But from what I see a majority of the time people are happy with what they get when they get it.

You left out one SMALL fact about the guy who is complaining about not gettting his fenders yet. He's in Greece. The shipping charge is going to be a great deal larger than was anticipated and more than one attempt has been made to ship them. There were very specific requirements to ship them including box size ect. Now the box is too large for UPS and I believe the new shipping costs ammount to about $800. The customer knows this and has not gotten back to SLR regarding this.

In the thread about the bumper it said what the story was . It was a one off pre-production bumper and it was determined that it didn't have the strength , stability and regidity to be made into a production piece.

Why don't you call Calmini and ask about their pre-production pre-runner bumper that they have on their Frontier in all of their magazine adds and ask them when it will be available. I did and they told me it was just made as a prototype and the rude guy on the phone who didn't want to talk about it or give me any indication weather or not it will be produced.

While you're at it. Ask them about their first crack at manufacturing torsion bars. I recall that effort wasn't 100% effective either. Are they better than the Nismo bars or is there a larger profit margin when you make them yourself? Then compare them to the 300M bars that SLR makes.

As far as the stage 5 suspension system from SLR I know that it is on at least three , maybee four trucks. It is expensive but it is in production. He has the items listed in his brochure and I'm sure if you gave him a call , he'll discuss pricing options with you.

I've seen it in person and it is far beyond what ANYONE has done with a production long travel suspension for Nissans.

It's amazing that I have been able to pick up the phone and get Spencer on the line almost any time I have a question about anything yet there is this huge complaint that he's never available. He's there every day from 8 am until usaully 5 and some times later. The phone number is 1-928-667-4757. He answers it all the time and returns calls.

He's not the biggest computer guy and doesn't spend his day typing. He makes parts. Give him a call , I'm sure he'd be happy to chat.

It's interesting. You were able to completely dodge any rational argument about the quality and quantity of available parts for our trucks and you resorted to the same old crap. So typical.
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#206466 - 01/10/03 11:24 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by wordtothis:
hmmm... $539.95 (10-1-03, 2:10 p.m.) Calmini Steering Upgrade System [b]VS. $51.00 (9-30-03, 6:00 p.m.) Four Wheel Parts shipped Rancho steering stabilizer bracket, and use of old strut from Calmini steering stabilizer for Isuzu {Free} [Thanks Kyle at 4WP, and also Kyle at High Country 4X4 for finally giving me an answer.]
I think the cheap bastards who only want to pay $50 bucks have it over the rich folks who have an extra $530 lying around and then, OH there's shipping too...
Yeah, $50 is cheaper than $530+ anyday...
david[/b]
Are you kidding? A steering stabilizer and an actual tough steering system are not even related. That is like comparing a Yugo to an M1 tank. If you have not run into the weaknesses of the stock Nissan steering with or without an idler brace, you will soon enough if you off road your truck.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#206467 - 01/10/03 11:36 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
austinbrtndr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1872
Loc: ATX
Quote:
Originally posted by Carlton McMillan:
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunX:
[b]SLR makes an idler arm brace.

spencerlowracing.com
Order now and you might get it by next year..

but only if you pay twice..[/b]
I just ordered shackles from those guys, and besides the fact the guy taking my order was a complete moron who tried to overcharge me, then lied to me about the shipping date, they weren't too bad... actually, I ordered on Monday, he said would be here by Thursday, package actually arrived on Monday... checked my charge and it was correct (he quoted me $10 too much), and all the parts were a perfect fit... no instructions included, but it was pretty straight forward, especially with all the info I've gathered from the boards... I would order from them again... my .02
_________________________
XOC
Everything you need, if you don't mind the b.s.

West Ham UFC -- Come On You Irons!!!

www.myspace.com/kraigslist

Kraig

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#206468 - 01/10/03 11:37 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
RReuscher Offline
Tyrannt
Member
*****

Registered: 16/08/00
Posts: 966
Loc: Carrollton, TX
Well, I've order once for SLR - a set of Bilstein shocks. Was told I would get an email with the tracking number, did not. Called back numerous times to find out if they had shipped, after about the third time when someone finally had the time to look for my order while I was on the phone (the other times I was promised a call back which I never got), I was told they had not shipped yet, and that when they they would call me with the tracking number. Finally after a couple of weeks of this I sent an email to the owner, and a couple a days later I got an email back with the tracking number. Which also happened to be day the shocks showed up at my door. Sorry, this type of customer service sucks, and it was my first and last time to order anything from them.
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Carrollton RACES/ARES #4007/A07

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#206469 - 01/10/03 12:29 PM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
buffalo Offline
Member

Registered: 20/03/02
Posts: 1049
Loc: los angeles, california
I personally have had bad phone communication with Calmini and have had no experience with SLR. I can't say enough about Calmini's products, I have their bumper and their sliders. I called before getting their bumper to inquire about ideas they had on their bumper, I wanted the light guards like the ARB. They had no plans on updating their design, then less than 4 months later their new bumper comes out. So then I consider selling my current bumper in order to get the new bumper which I really want, so I call them back and ask about production on the new bumper, they put me on the list plus mention that I should consider waiting for the retrofit kit for the light guards for those of us with the old style bumper. I say OK. that will work. I then wait a few months, and call to check the status on production of the new bumper, they tell me that they have been trying to reach me for weeks because my bumper is ready (my contact #s have not changed) So I ask about the retrofit kit and they say they have never had any plans for a retrofit kit for the old bumper WTF. At this point I am pissed, thats two strikes. would I still buy from Calmini? the answer is yes, are they straight with their customers and do they have good costmer service the answer is no.
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use the SEARCH function! Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!

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#206470 - 01/10/03 12:44 PM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
I will say I have had some problems with their customer service people once or twice. When I do I just ask for Steve.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#206471 - 01/10/03 12:46 PM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
wordtothis Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 830
Loc: atlanta
Quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
At this point I am pissed, thats two strikes. would I still buy from Calmini? the answer is yes, are they straight with their customers and do they have good costmer service the answer is no.
well said, my sentiments exactly...

david

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#206472 - 01/10/03 01:02 PM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
buffalo Offline
Member

Registered: 20/03/02
Posts: 1049
Loc: los angeles, california
To add... I personally picked up my bumper and sliders from their shop, so its obvious that there are only a few people answering the phones. All I was asking is for accuracy and consistency on what they tell me over the phone. I will admit I am not that experienced in offroading knowledge especially parts, but their way of handling phone calls in a condescending manner and treating their customers as though your stupid is unprofessional. The one time that I asked for Steve after the rude and unprofessional service I was told he was unavailable. So next time if it ever happens i will go straight to Steve.
_________________________
use the SEARCH function! Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!

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#206473 - 02/10/03 05:08 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
wordtothis Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 830
Loc: atlanta
well, everyone's right...
slr makes one and so does ac, but i can't use slr's because i have two tow hooks, so how about the quality of ac's? does anyone have one?
i haven't ever ordered from ac, how do they do with customer service and timely shipping?
anyone is welcome here, i just wanted to know about the quality and service aspects because slr's kit is out.
thanks,
david [Geek]

oh, and if anyone wants to know, you can use the calmini strut from their steering stabilizer for an isuzu trooper in conjunction with the rancho stabilizer brackets for the xterra to make one sweet looking calmini-rancho steering stabilizer that works really well.

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#206474 - 02/10/03 05:19 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
austinbrtndr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1872
Loc: ATX
Quote:
Originally posted by wordtothis:
i haven't ever ordered from ac, how do they do with customer service and timely shipping?
I just ordered my snorkel from them... the first time I spoke with them they were very nice... we discussed the differences between the two snorkels offered, and he seemed pretty knowledgable.. the guy said that they had to get an exact shipping total and would call me back... never called back... I called the next afternoon to get total and tracking number... it had not shipped and they didn't know a total... he told me it was on backorder (guess they were just gonna blow me off)... Ordered the TJM snorkel and he gave me total within a few minutes... called the next day and spoke with a woman... we kinda joked around about me calling them too much, then she got me the tracking number... very nice lady... this was on Tuesday... just checked, and my part should be here Friday... yeah... I'll work with them again...
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XOC
Everything you need, if you don't mind the b.s.

West Ham UFC -- Come On You Irons!!!

www.myspace.com/kraigslist

Kraig

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#206475 - 02/10/03 06:26 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
Carlton McMillan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 2966
Loc: MN
Quote:
Originally posted by austinbrtndr:
[QUOTE]I... called the next day and spoke with a woman... we kinda joked around about me calling them too much, then she got me the tracking number... very nice lady... this was on Tuesday... just checked, and my part should be here Friday... yeah... I'll work with them again...
That would be Jane you spoke to... and yes.. she is much nicer than Mike
_________________________
SAS - It's what your Xterra wants for Christmas.

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#206476 - 02/10/03 06:40 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Jane rocks. Anyway, the AC idler arm brace will work fine. I had one, and the guy I sold it to is still using it with no problems.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#206477 - 02/10/03 08:02 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
XOC Offline
Admin
Member
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Registered: 16/08/00
Posts: 17102
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunX:
My experience with SLR has been fantastic.
Count yourself lucky.
I gave SLR 5 million ads on this website in exchange for a defective lift kit, sagging springs and a bad attitude.

You should appreciate CALMINI a little more since half the shit on your truck (like your roof rack) was stolen from their project vehicle.
_________________________
nom nom nom

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#206478 - 02/10/03 08:56 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
gmaxis Offline
Member

Registered: 21/08/00
Posts: 2179
Loc: America's Finest city
I have yet to order from Calmini (my wish list includes Control Arms, steering system, idler arm brace and swaybar disconnects) but have spoken to Steve who sounds eager to help and answer any questions I have.

My Bilsteins and AALs all came from SLR which arrived in a week and a half sans tracking number. So far my experience have been positive and would order again.
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SHIFT_paradigms

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#206479 - 02/10/03 09:59 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've gotten stuff from both, in a timely correct manner from both.

I know people who have had problems with both as well.

What always bothers me on the good ol' XOC is that because (cough) some people get free stuff, suddenly the other vendor is a rip off artist etc.

Such poor taste, really.

As an aside, if you want something from any vendor you can't walk into a store for, CALL them. It's a neat little invention some of you techiedweebs may have heard of called the TELEPHONE. Then when you get someone on the phone you have to be (gasp, the horror) NICE. This will help you. Ordering things via email from mechanics is not the best way to go.

Thank you, good day. :rolleyes:

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#206480 - 02/10/03 10:02 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
Todrick Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 7759
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunX:
[b]My experience with SLR has been fantastic.
Count yourself lucky.
I gave SLR 5 million ads on this website in exchange for a defective lift kit, sagging springs and a bad attitude.

You should appreciate CALMINI a little more since half the shit on your truck (like your roof rack) was stolen from their project vehicle.[/b]
No Ian.... SocalPunx has updated his Truck.... I think its just the rack and lights that are Calmini pieces, Spencer did the rest

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#206481 - 02/10/03 10:57 AM Re: it was a reasonably simple question...
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
Count yourself lucky.
I gave SLR 5 million ads on this website in exchange for a defective lift kit, sagging springs and a bad attitude.

You should appreciate CALMINI a little more since half the shit on your truck (like your roof rack) was stolen from their project vehicle.
Since you basically just called me a thief

Is anyone else still whining about that roof rack , or are you the only one? Stolen huh? You obviously haven't seen my truck. While it is nice , the rack is one piece in the whole puzzle. It hardly represents "half" of anything that I've done.

Maybe you are still confused about the facts. It wasn't Calmini's project vehicle. It was a pre-production X that a magazine got from Nissan for a YEAR that Calmini was given a chance to demonsrate their products on. So was Skid Row , ARB , Yokohama Tires and whoever supplied the ugy ass wheels.

The magazine did a write up on the truck and used it for a year. It was not Calmini's project truck. If so it would have spent the year in Bakersfield and not Placentia. When a manufacturer DONATES parts to a project truck , they are doing so to gain exposure for their business. They do it with the expectation that they are never going to see the parts again.

The logic is , that the exposure from a major off road magazine reviewing their parts is a greater benefit than the cost of the parts. It happens all the time. Do you really think that after SEMA the project vehicles are delivered to all the participating companies so they can be dismantled?

Calmini got the exposure they wanted , as did Skid row , Yokohama , PIAA , the ugly wheel manufacturer and that was that. Nissan wanted their truck back and the parts were distributed and the truck was destroyed. I got the rack. Someone else got the skid plates and someone else got the ARB. and you're still whining about it. Before you call me a thief here get your facts straight.

It's pretty par for the course that when I give facts about Calmini, I get attacked with this bullshit. The torsion bars problems , the blue paint on their steering , late arrival and people waiting for their bumpers and steering are all facts . Aren't they? Am I bad mouthing them? No. Are they using a "pre-runner" style bumper on their Frontier in their magazine ads that is not avaible to anyone while listing "pre-
runner stuff" as being available? Absolutely.

Facts.

If you cruise the same boards that Carlton used as examples of dissatisfaction with SLR you will find some people unhappy about delays with Calmini as well. You will also find people who aren't 100% satisfied with the product. Hell if you go on the Sami boards or Pirate you will find people there too who don't think the world of Calmini.

My point was not to slam Calmini. I think it's great that they make anything for Nissans at all. I love my rack. It get's compliments all the time and I allways point people in their direction. But the point was that there is no company that is 100% insulated from production delays and less than perfect products.

I'm sorry if you think that on one hand giving examples of SLR's deficiencies is allright but fairly and accurately stating issues with Calmini is somehow slamming them.

The point I was making , and that no one here has disputed , is that some people are going to have some problems every now and then no matter where you go. Calmini is not perfect and constantly bashing SLR every time their name appears on this board is rediculous.

Carlton has no problem bashing them , but at the same time he also has no problem sending them an advertising proposal. It looks a lot like if they were willing to pay you money for banner ads they wouldn't be so bad. But they aren't so we get the bullshit quips ever time their name is mentioned. Is there a connection?

Other than the gears , what new products for the X have they introduced? Why if Nissan is so important to them why is Full Traction on the list of exhibitors at the Off-Road Expo this weekend but not Calmini. It makes sense for them to concentrate on competing with the likes of pro-comp in the lucrative Jeep market. Add that with their work with Isuzu and Suzuki and SASing old harbodies and it's easy to understand why there hasn't been more products available from them for our trucks.

The fact of the matter is that they have a lot on their plates and the primary concern is not making new parts for Xterras and Frontiers.

SLR's only focus EVER has been Nissan trucks. They haven't been the most dependable when it comes to shipping and on time production but they are making progress. He is young. But I think Spencer is learning what it takes to take a small fabrication shop and turn it into shop that makes bolt on production pieces for the masses.

It's a switch from what they are used to. And it takes some time and genuine effort to teach a guy , who's focus has been racing and fab work, the art of running a detail oriented , production business. But , I think he's making progress.
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If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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