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#209214 - 13/10/05 09:23 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
It's hard to make it out, but I'm pretty sure that's your mom on top of the car... It's hard, though, 'cause normally I make her be on top, so I don't recognize her from this angle. wink
Ooooooh! Went after mommas!

Get out of here with that fourth grade shit. You're playing with the big boys now.

And we're all fully aware of how much you like to play with the BIG boys...you fuckin 'mo.

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#209215 - 13/10/05 09:25 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by InfX708:
We had a guy decide to start firing a few rounds at a formation today at Ft. Campbell. We have 100 M4s, a few shotguns, pistols, and machineguns and nothing was around to provide defense. Luckily the guy was a shitty shot.

"Hi there, Joker..."

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#209216 - 13/10/05 09:28 PM Re: Guns in the house?
InfX708 Offline
Member

Registered: 24/09/00
Posts: 864
Loc: Ft. Bragg, NC
Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:
Quote:
Originally posted by InfX708:
[b]We had a guy decide to start firing a few rounds at a formation today at Ft. Campbell. We have 100 M4s, a few shotguns, pistols, and machineguns and nothing was around to provide defense. Luckily the guy was a shitty shot.

"Hi there, Joker..."[/b]
Nah, this guy was more like some hood rat gang banger - started trying to ditch his clothes while running away. Oh yeah, did you hear about the shooting in Indy over the weekend? Dead burgler.
_________________________
300,000 miles, and counting

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#209217 - 14/10/05 02:11 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Origami Gangsta Offline
Member

Registered: 24/05/01
Posts: 6497
Loc: Dammit! Even CLOSER to Smith a...
Quote:
Originally posted by Shahram:
I have to agree with Wilmac to a certain extent; that is to say, I think gun defense success stories are few and far between. Shame there aren't more. It's a simple equation of logistics. Crime victims are often merrily slumbering or toiling away at their daily rituals, not expecting that an armed thief is about to accost them. Sometimes, through luck or extraordinary circumstances, the victim is prepared and is able to defend himself. But not very often. Not often enough, anyway.

Does that affect my argument for gun ownership? No. It doesn't have the slightest bearing. I don't give a flying fuck about statistics, or facts, or anecdotal evidence one way or another. I will always use a gun if I feel I need to, regardless of law or popularity or political correctness. Just like I will always control what goes into my body, I will always speak my mind, I will always keep a boundary that no one can cross. I don't give a shit about laws. Call me a criminal. Call me a nutcase. I'm a moral person, and I believe in myself. I believe in self-empowerment. And if the day comes when I must kill another human being in self-defense, I ain't coming without proper equipment.

I've never understood the American "liberal" stance on guns. Lots of liberals have used firearms to help foment change. If guns were good enough for Chι, why aren't they good enough for you? You think when the day comes when your "rights" don't mean shit to this government, and your life and livelihood is in danger, that the proliferation of small arms won't be a deterrent to an overbearing cop or politician?

As far as keeping guns in the house, I grew up with grandparents who had guns. Until I was an adult with gun experience, I never touched them. They belonged to my grandfather, and I respected my grandfather's belongings. That's all it came down to.

I have a kid coming any day now. I've got a kitchen full of the most vicious cutlery you can buy. My wife cooks huge pots of boiled and deep-fried foods. I keep fuel, and matches, and electrical equipment, and power-tools, and all kinds of dangerous stuff in the house. Yes, I will have to be more careful, but you cannot ever "child-proof" a house 100%. At some point, you have to rely on what you've taught your children. They will have brushes with death. We all have, and so will they. Can't be helped.

For hundreds of years, people have kept firearms at arm's length. Children have died, but we have education and information now. We have proper locks, safes, safety devices. Will more children die? Yes. Does that have anything to do with me? No. Much like my argument for marijuana, don't judge me for what someone else may do. I manage to live my life day after day without hurting the people around me. So just leave me alone.

Besides, much like seat belts, or drunk driving, American behavior is dictated by the shaping of thought. When people just get used to locking their guns in a safe manner, just like using their seatbelts or designating a driver, less people get killed. Which is the best we can hope for.
True dat. [ThumbsUp]
_________________________
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#209218 - 14/10/05 06:20 AM Re: Guns in the house?
great pyr-hauler Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/03
Posts: 347
Loc: Illinois
Interesting that two of the gun defense non-believers are from California and DC. I wonder if you lived in Texas or Missouri you might hear more stories because they happen more in those areas. Just an observation.

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#209219 - 14/10/05 06:44 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
[b]It's hard to make it out, but I'm pretty sure that's your mom on top of the car... It's hard, though, 'cause normally I make her be on top, so I don't recognize her from this angle. wink
Ooooooh! Went after mommas!

Get out of here with that fourth grade shit. You're playing with the big boys now.

And we're all fully aware of how much you like to play with the BIG boys...you fuckin 'mo.[/b]
I apologize. Evidently I don't have as much experience playing with the "BIG boys" that you do. I bet you "make videos" for the police... You sick bastard.

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#209220 - 14/10/05 07:35 AM Re: Guns in the house?
monkeyman Offline
Member

Registered: 20/08/00
Posts: 1415
Loc: raleigh_nc
how 'bout in an aprtment?

web page

[Huh?]
_________________________
being grown up isn't 1/2 as fun as growing up

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#209221 - 14/10/05 01:48 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:

I just find it absolutely amazing that (it seems like) every gun owner on this board has some sort of story about how an intruder broke into their home and the only thing that saved them was a gun.
I own guns. I've never had to use it for anything other than target practice and hunting. A gun nut could take that and argue that I've never had an intruder because I have guns.

A left-wing headcase could argue that because I've never had an intruder that I obviously don't need guns.

I like to stand in the middle and say "better to have and not need, than to need and not have".

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#209222 - 15/10/05 06:44 PM Re: Guns in the house?
xterra3202 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1718
Loc: Georgia
I live in an apartment by myself. I have an H&K USP .45ACP that sleeps next to me. Ive lived around and worked with firearms my entire life. You always make sure you know what your target is before squezing the trigger. Once you know what your target is, let em have it!!! If someone is breaking into your home and they know that you are there they arent there to bring you flowers and im not gonna rely on the police to save my ass. Oh and BTW if your my next door neighbor ill help you out too!!!

Tim
_________________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrannts."

Thomas Jefferson

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#209223 - 17/10/05 04:47 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Bowling for Columbine"

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#209224 - 17/10/05 12:19 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Todrick Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/00
Posts: 7756
Loc: So.Cal
Quote:
Originally posted by Arterra:
"Bowling for Columbine"
oh, you're a fan of fiction?

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#209225 - 17/10/05 12:25 PM Re: Guns in the house?
monkeyman Offline
Member

Registered: 20/08/00
Posts: 1415
Loc: raleigh_nc
Quote:
Originally posted by Todrick:
Quote:
Originally posted by Arterra:
[b]"Bowling for Columbine"
oh, you're a fan of fiction?[/b]
[Spit] LOL
_________________________
being grown up isn't 1/2 as fun as growing up

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#209226 - 17/10/05 02:23 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Some good quotes:

"An armed society is a polite society"
-Heinlein

"Guns can't stop crime.......
....unless their loaded!"
-JeffW

"If guns cause crime, then logic follows without question that; cameras cause pornography, matches cause arson, automobiles cause accidents, bathing suits cause drowning, computers cause email, baseball bats cause home runs, blenders cause margaritas, elections cause corruption and, of course, grandmothers cause adultery." - The Federalist (www.Federalist.com)

---

Colorado has the "Make my day" law. We shoot first and ask questions later. At least one burglar (usually more) gets shot every year in my county. If that's not crime prevention, I don't know what is.

I used to live in Newark, NJ. I could buy an illegal "Sat nite special" for $100, but couldn't even get a permit for a legit concealed weapon (almost impossible in NJ). So you end up with a society where ONLY the criminals have guns.

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#209227 - 17/10/05 07:39 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


American Rifleman magazine (NRA publication) regularly tells gun defense stories straight from police blotters.

Why?

It should be obvious if you've read this thread.... because people refuse to believe that responsible gun owners use firearms to defend themselves agaisnt criminals.

Before anyone ballyhoos that it came from the NRA, go check out any of the stories and see for yourself. Police Blotters are public knowledge.

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#209228 - 18/10/05 05:12 AM Re: Guns in the house?
jorge Offline
Member

Registered: 27/11/00
Posts: 1147
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by MAKWAY:
American Rifleman magazine (NRA publication) regularly tells gun defense stories straight from police blotters.
Do they mention every time some guy kills someone with his legal gun, or when some kid finds it? No.

Anyway, I think people should have the right to own guns. Though not because of the 2nd Amendment, I think people should have as much freedom as long as it doesn't impede the freedom of others.

This is one of those rare occasions I agree with the conservative folks, though I think people should also have and keep the rights to marry (even gays), have abortions, and do which ever drugs they feel like.

People have more self control than the government gives them credit for.
_________________________
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Homer, I see your daughter is one of those wave-kissing, Dukakis-hugging moon maidens.

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#209229 - 18/10/05 02:41 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
I think people should have as much freedom as long as it doesn't impede the freedom of others.
good god, I hate to get sucked back into this thread, but here goes...

...an innocent bystander getting shot isn't having their rights impeded?

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#209230 - 18/10/05 02:50 PM Re: Guns in the house?
jorge Offline
Member

Registered: 27/11/00
Posts: 1147
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:
...an innocent bystander getting shot isn't having their rights impeded?
Oh believe me, I understand this. I don't believe in guns, nor would I ever own one. I think they do more bad than good.

But that's saying that if someone dies by getting hit by a drunk driver you should ban alcohol. Which this happens more often then people by the bystander being shot.

What I do think is sick is that people justify killing someone who robs them. People on this board constantly post that they'll shoot someone who is running away.

Robbing someone does not justify death, under any circumstances.

Also I see no reason for civilians to have assult weapons and hide behind the 2nd ammendment.
_________________________
-Jorge (pronounced hor-hey)

Plethora of photos , videos , a Phlog ,
and a site with kittens .
Sign up for the Nor\'Easter
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Homer, I see your daughter is one of those wave-kissing, Dukakis-hugging moon maidens.

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#209231 - 18/10/05 03:54 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
But that's saying that if someone dies by getting hit by a drunk driver you should ban alcohol. Which this happens more often then people by the bystander being shot.
Ok, I can buy that counter-argument....

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#209232 - 18/10/05 04:51 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here in AZ when you step off a plane at Sky Harbor Intl Airport, an US marshall will inspect you for guns and weapons. If you don't have one, they'll give you one..
[Smoking]

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#209233 - 18/10/05 05:59 PM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Do they mention every time some guy kills someone with his legal gun, or when some kid finds it? No.
No, Jorge, they don't. But the FBI/Dept of Justice publish a report every year about it. Why don't you go look it up? Because I'm certain you wouldn't otherwise, let me help you.

Straight from the DOJ:
"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%."

Here's another:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ffo98.htm
In 1998, 40% of those charged with firearms posession offenses in the U.S. were already barred from having a firearm (probably because they were already a Felon)

and another:
Almost half the defendants charged with a possession offense between 1992 and 1999 were charged with using a firearm during the commission
of a violent or drug trafficking offense (18 U.S.C. § 924(c)). Of those charged with a possession offense between 1992 and 1999 –
• 44% were charged with unlawfully possessing a firearm based on their status as a prohibited person (18 U.S.C. § 922(g))
• 8%, receiving or possessing an unregistered firearm (26 U.S.C.§ 5861(d))
• 3%, possessing firearms with altered or obliterated serial numbers (18 U.S.C. § 922(k) and 26 U.S.C.§ 5861(h))
• 3%, possessing stolen firearms (18 U.S.C. § 922(j)) (appendix table 3).

In 1994, the DOJ said that young people with illegal guns account for 74% of street crime committed.
_______________________________

In my opinion, all this blather about whether or not firearms should be legal can be cleared up with the statements of some notable Americans.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson-

"Americans [have] the right and advantage of being armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust their people with arms." -James Madison-

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms . . ." -Samuel Adams-

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton-

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." -George Washington-

I'll second that one, George. Guns deserve a place with all that is good.

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#209234 - 18/10/05 09:02 PM Re: Guns in the house?
jorge Offline
Member

Registered: 27/11/00
Posts: 1147
Loc: Montclair, NJ
If I'm reading your numbers right, that means that 14% of all gun crimes are caused by guns bought my the person legally?

Now look at the 80%, that's really vague, cause they mix in legally bought by family/friends with illegal.

These numbers are pretty disturbing. If it was closer to 0%, then your point would be understood.

Also, go look up what the founding fathers wanted Americans to defend themselves from. Hint: It's not other Americans.

Also, read my post again, note I'm defending your right to bear arms. There is no way you will ever convince me that it's not creepy/paranoid.

Also, George Washington is not only long dead, he wouldn't read this board anyway.
_________________________
-Jorge (pronounced hor-hey)

Plethora of photos , videos , a Phlog ,
and a site with kittens .
Sign up for the Nor\'Easter
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NJAX.net profile
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Homer, I see your daughter is one of those wave-kissing, Dukakis-hugging moon maidens.

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#209235 - 19/10/05 06:46 AM Re: Guns in the house?
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Last night on "Boston Legal", they had an awesome discussion on gun laws. Shatner ruled.

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#209236 - 19/10/05 06:59 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
Quote:
Originally posted by WilMac1023:
[b]...an innocent bystander getting shot isn't having their rights impeded?
......Robbing someone does not justify death, under any circumstances......[/b]
???

Why not?

People rob other people by threatening or breaking and entering. Both situations threaten my life, so why wouldn't I defend myself?

---

There's no question about it. Too many idiots have guns. I sincerely believe that mandatory gun education should be instituted everywhere. I don't believe, however, that owning a gun makes someone creepy or paranoid.

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#209237 - 19/10/05 08:52 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
I agree with Jeff and agree with Jorge. As a cop I would have no trouble with someone defending themselves if someone entered their home illegally and were trying to rob them. But if they run away when they find out someone is home that is not in the realm of protecting yourself. They are running away. In Illinois that actually is the only way not to get charged with Home Invasion. Either give up or Immediately leave without hurting or fighting with the owner.

Defend yourself all you can but if someone is running away what is the point they are gone. What if you only injure them. You ready to get sued?
_________________________
2001 Super Black XE R.I.P. 09/05/06
My Blog

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#209238 - 19/10/05 09:47 AM Re: Guns in the house?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In Minnesota in order to get a carry permit you have to pass certification classes. The officer that trained us works for the Minneapolis PD and trains the PD as his full time job.

He hammered us pretty hard with the law in Minnesota stating that you or someone else must be under the threat of imminent death before you can legally use your weapon. They even showed a series of short videos with a quiz; Could You or Couldn't You fire in this situation?

In almost every case (even the woman being raped) the answer was no.

He then dropped the other shoe. Even if it is clear that you had just cause to shoot and kill the bad guy because the threat of imminent death was indisputible, the deceased's family will hound you with civil suits for years and between them and the attorney's fees you'll lose everything. You will be wiped out for defending a life because the scum bag probably has scum bags for relatives.

There's no clean end to an encounter like that.

One other tip: If you ever find yourself in that situation, your claim always must be, I shot to STOP him. You never, ever meant to kill him, no matter what the situation. You only meant to STOP him.

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