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#209617 - 15/09/05 08:27 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
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Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
In Iraq, and other predominantly Muslim countries, they feel as we do, that they WANT God in their government, they WANT the laws to reflect their religeous beliefs, and they WANT those who are opposed to this religeous government to respect the religeous authority of the government to require adherance to the law.

The USA is the same as far as the sentiment goes...its just a question of degree, and the majority feel that the dissenting minorities should just realize that they live in a Christian society, and that Christmas and other public displays of the religeon, etc...are an important part of their lives, and to say that they can't have a Christmas Party is just being spiteful...

...And atheists are in the weird position of being opposed to their children being taught things that the parents do not believe in...

Much like as some religeous people are opposed to their children being taught evolution rather than biblical creation in the same situation.

Same situation, opposite sides of the fence.

laugh
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2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

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#209618 - 15/09/05 08:46 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
MBFlyerfan Offline
Member

Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
I say take the UG out.

That, however, will not end the fight. The extreme left will try to eliminate the pledge completely.

Since the extreme left is for all intent the voice of the democratic party, this will serve to alienate the majority of voters against them even further.
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#209619 - 15/09/05 08:48 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm an Athiest, yet I grew up Christian, Married into a Cathloic family and am now studying Judaism at a Jewish temple. Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn other peoples beliefs. If your kids go around not learning about religion just because their folks are Athiest, they'll be a real dumbass in real life and not understand others beliefs. A well rounded education simply has to contain some religion.

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#209620 - 15/09/05 09:15 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:
I'm an Athiest, yet I grew up Christian, Married into a Cathloic family and am now studying Judaism at a Jewish temple. Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn other peoples beliefs. If your kids go around not learning about religion just because their folks are Athiest, they'll be a real dumbass in real life and not understand others beliefs. A well rounded education simply has to contain some religion.
So religion in education should be required? [Huh?]
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#209621 - 15/09/05 09:18 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:

In Iraq, and other predominantly Muslim countries, they feel as we do, that they WANT God in their government, they WANT the laws to reflect their religeous beliefs, and they WANT those who are opposed to this religeous government to respect the religeous authority of the government to require adherance to the law.

The USA is the same as far as the sentiment goes...its just a question of degree, and the majority feel that the dissenting minorities should just realize that they live in a Christian society, and that Christmas and other public displays of the religeon, etc...are an important part of their lives, and to say that they can't have a Christmas Party is just being spiteful...

...And atheists are in the weird position of being opposed to their children being taught things that the parents do not believe in...

Much like as some religeous people are opposed to their children being taught evolution rather than biblical creation in the same situation.

Same situation, opposite sides of the fence.
It's not the same. Not the same at all.

There are problems in Muslim countries because Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political system.

Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:

All I can say is. Whomever the idiot is who is lodging this complaint, someone should take all of his money away, because he obviously can't spend it with 'In God we Trust' written on it.
The guy's name is Michael Newdow. He is a guy with both a Medical and a Law degree (maybe he did that so he could handle his own malpractice suits).

Anyway... He doesn't really practice medicine anymore. He is a professional litigant. For years he has been filing lawsuits about the Pledge and other atheist related things against the government. His wife left him years ago because of his professional full time activism. His daughter whom he uses in these suits is not an atheist. He doesn't even have custody of her.

In this suit he uses two unnamed people because he cannot use his daughter anymore because he doesn't have the right to sue on her behalf.

I wouldn't get too upset about this case. It is doomed. The Jimmy Carter appointed judge based his decision and cited judicial precedent on a 9th Circuit case that was struck down and dismissed by SCOTUS. This automatically gives a higher court a reason to dismiss this case. It will either happen in the appeals court or at the SCOTUS level again. It could however make it past the 9th Circuit again. It's an activist court, but SCOTUS will not ignore the reasons for this federal judge's decision and will use any excuse to throw it out.

That will leave Newdow back to square one again. He will file another lawsuit after he loses this one. You can count on it.

The Supreme Court has already decided in past cases that the pledge passes constitutional muster. Even Justice William Brennan agreed and he was a big liberal.

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#209622 - 15/09/05 09:20 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
Quote:
Originally posted by Lazza:
[b]I suppose technically this lawsuit has merit. After all, atheists have rights and I can understand that a "devout atheist" would be pissed to have his child in a class where "under God" was chanted, ... even though no child is forced to say it. Subliminally the child is being taught there is a god. However I suspect the guy who filed this lawsuit is only interested in publicity.

I think the Supreme Court will keep "under God" in the pledge. If they uphold the ruling it will only be because it is an issue involving children. They might say "oh, the government can benignly say 'God' on adult matters like money and public buildings. But coercising children to say it a no-no".

...nah! Our conservative court will throw it out, kicking atheists and our constitution in the gonads. We'll then start seeing messages like "honk if you love Jesus" underneath traffic signs.

_Lazza
That is just it, the Supreme Court already ruled in favor of keeping "under God" in the pledge. I don't understand how a lesser court is able to overturn the Supreme Court. It isn't supposed to work that way, yet we citizens allow it.[/b]
Because it is San Francisco....I have said it a thousand times, that place is its own country.

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#209623 - 15/09/05 09:39 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


With all the political crap kids have to deal with in schools, mixed with the derision and travesties of pedagogy and junk food and violence and peer pressure and sex too soon and assorted other bullshit, I think I'll just home school the little fucker.

"Okay, Jack, here's the part where Daddy's supposed to teach you math, but since Daddy sucks at math.....you'll be reading......what is this.....Bukowski. Mmmm'kay?"

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#209624 - 15/09/05 09:39 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Fronterra:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Lazza:
[b]I suppose technically this lawsuit has merit. After all, atheists have rights and I can understand that a "devout atheist" would be pissed to have his child in a class where "under God" was chanted, ... even though no child is forced to say it. Subliminally the child is being taught there is a god. However I suspect the guy who filed this lawsuit is only interested in publicity.

I think the Supreme Court will keep "under God" in the pledge. If they uphold the ruling it will only be because it is an issue involving children. They might say "oh, the government can benignly say 'God' on adult matters like money and public buildings. But coercising children to say it a no-no".

...nah! Our conservative court will throw it out, kicking atheists and our constitution in the gonads. We'll then start seeing messages like "honk if you love Jesus" underneath traffic signs.

_Lazza
That is just it, the Supreme Court already ruled in favor of keeping "under God" in the pledge. I don't understand how a lesser court is able to overturn the Supreme Court. It isn't supposed to work that way, yet we citizens allow it.[/b]
Because it is San Francisco....I have said it a thousand times, that place is its own country.[/b]
The 9th Circuit is NOT just San Francisco. It barely is, other than the main office being there. Nearly all the judges are from outside of the San Francisco area.

Only 3 active are in San Francisco (21 are outside the area).

Only 3 senior Judges are in San Francisco (20 are outside the area).
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#209625 - 15/09/05 09:46 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:
[b]I'm an Athiest, yet I grew up Christian, Married into a Cathloic family and am now studying Judaism at a Jewish temple. Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn other peoples beliefs. If your kids go around not learning about religion just because their folks are Athiest, they'll be a real dumbass in real life and not understand others beliefs. A well rounded education simply has to contain some religion.
So religion in education should be required? [Huh?] [/b]
No - Not required as in schools 'Must' teach it. But a teacher shouldn't lose their job for telling school kids a Jesus story!

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#209626 - 15/09/05 09:48 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fronterra:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Lazza:
I suppose technically this lawsuit has merit. After all, atheists have rights and I can understand that a "devout atheist" would be pissed to have his child in a class where "under God" was chanted, ... even though no child is forced to say it. Subliminally the child is being taught there is a god. However I suspect the guy who filed this lawsuit is only interested in publicity.

I think the Supreme Court will keep "under God" in the pledge. If they uphold the ruling it will only be because it is an issue involving children. They might say "oh, the government can benignly say 'God' on adult matters like money and public buildings. But coercising children to say it a no-no".

...nah! Our conservative court will throw it out, kicking atheists and our constitution in the gonads. We'll then start seeing messages like "honk if you love Jesus" underneath traffic signs.

_Lazza
That is just it, the Supreme Court already ruled in favor of keeping "under God" in the pledge. I don't understand how a lesser court is able to overturn the Supreme Court. It isn't supposed to work that way, yet we citizens allow it.[/b]
Because it is San Francisco....I have said it a thousand times, that place is its own country.[/b]
The 9th Circuit is NOT just San Francisco. It barely is, other than the main office being there. Nearly all the judges are from outside of the San Francisco area.

Only 3 active are in San Francisco (21 are outside the area).

Only 3 senior Judges are in San Francisco (20 are outside the area).

Okay, great...thanks for the lesson Moby. I guess you did not pick up on the sarcasm...Next time i will use one of those instant graemlins we have.... [ThumbsUp] laugh [Too much XOC] :rolleyes: [Freak]

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#209627 - 15/09/05 10:00 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
blademan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 64
Loc: londonderry NH
When I was in school, I sat through the Pledge, Not so Much that I was at the time an Atheist, just that I though it stupid to repeat something over and over and over and over..... I do think that "Under God" is totally unnecessary. Though I would not have gone so far as to sue to remove it, I agree with the merit of the case. Religion belongs in your own home, or your own church. God, though Non denominational, is a product of religion, and has not business in schools, in and way. When I played Football we were told to take a knee ( something Jews do not do, ever) and bow our heads when a prayer to Christ was offered up, to keep us safe... I was not offended by it though I did not participate in it, and I got no flak from the team, Probably because I was 6'3" and 178 as a freshman... I must say I am more concerned about the erosion of science classes and the "intelligent design" debate raging in the south now. I look at this case and it think it acts as a check to the Religious right who has gotten very active and bold in the Bush era, to say, the Constitution protects us ALL regardless of faith creed color culture, or Hopefully someday sexual orientation.

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#209628 - 15/09/05 10:00 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
That's right...learning about other cultures and beliefs helps every one understand each other, and where each is coming from, etc...and allows tolerance.

Of course, making a catholic get bar mitzfa'd, or baptising a jew might be a bit different, as would making one say they believed in the other's religeon even if the beliefs conflicted their own...is different than learning about them.

Immersion techniques are proven to be effective teaching strategies, but the application in this case might be a problem...getting your nose pierced or a plate in your lip, etc...can be a bit much for a school system to try.

laugh

Teaching about each other is good...and should happen, as is teaching tolerence for the beliefs of others...and the fighting is over what that teaching should consist of...as some parents do not want their childen taught beliefs that conflict with their own...easier example...

Many teachers are democrats, many parents are republicans ...(This can be reversed if you wish...it works either way...)...kids come home from a current events discussion at school...with their teachers' political opinion...and the parents explode in a rage...

So some are upset the kid WAS told about the stork or santa claus being frauds, and some are upset that the kids were NOT told they were frauds.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

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#209629 - 15/09/05 10:40 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#209630 - 15/09/05 10:42 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:
[b]I'm an Athiest, yet I grew up Christian, Married into a Cathloic family and am now studying Judaism at a Jewish temple. Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn other peoples beliefs. If your kids go around not learning about religion just because their folks are Athiest, they'll be a real dumbass in real life and not understand others beliefs. A well rounded education simply has to contain some religion.
So religion in education should be required? [Huh?] [/b]
No - Not required as in schools 'Must' teach it. But a teacher shouldn't lose their job for telling school kids a Jesus story![/b]
Agreed. Is there any teacher that actually has been fired because of it? (Verifiable, that is).
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#209631 - 15/09/05 10:49 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by babyX:
I used to get really wound up defending people's rights to NOT say "under God" in the pledge, let alone my right NOT to say the pledge or sing the national anthem.

And then I got a life.

If you're atheist and don't want your kid thinking there really is a God, fine. Take it into your own hands to teach your kid that. Otherwise, get over it. You're living in a nation whose populace is probably more Christian than not, being governed by people who are probably more Christian than not. Christian morals/principals/sayings are gonna leak themselves into official documents/pledges/etc.

If you don't like it, you can move. [Wave]
I <3 you.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#209632 - 15/09/05 10:54 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
I think my POINT was that Islam WAS the political system...because that's the way the populationed there WANTED IT....

laugh

So - Its the same as US wanting OUR religeon to be part of our system...we want laws that allow religeon as part of our public lives...and we want those that DON'T want religeon as part of THEIR public lives to just accept that majority rules, and get over it.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

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#209633 - 15/09/05 10:58 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
MyGoldX Offline
Member

Registered: 23/04/01
Posts: 1317
Loc: Santa Rosa, Ca
Jesus H Fucking Christ people!

With all the shit hitting the fan in the world today, isn't there something better to argue about than whether or not somebody says god in the pledge of allegience. Ask the damn kids,I bet they don't give a crap, hell most of them make up different words anyways, just like we all did when we were kids

Sheesh.....
_________________________
Groovy Baby!

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#209634 - 15/09/05 11:02 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by MyGoldX:
Jesus H Fucking Christ people!

With all the shit hitting the fan in the world today, isn't there something better to argue about than whether or not somebody says god in the pledge of allegience. Ask the damn kids,I bet they don't give a crap, hell most of them make up different words anyways, just like we all did when we were kids

Sheesh.....
What exactly is the point of posting this? If you don't want to discuss it move on. Most of us here can handle thinking about more than one thing from day to day.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#209635 - 15/09/05 11:04 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
MyGoldX Offline
Member

Registered: 23/04/01
Posts: 1317
Loc: Santa Rosa, Ca
Fuckin Blow me, OK?

I got an opinion, I'll state it, If you don't like it, don't read it and move on...
_________________________
Groovy Baby!

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#209636 - 15/09/05 11:20 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
2001frontier Offline
Member

Registered: 20/12/01
Posts: 4932
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by MyGoldX:
Fuckin Blow me, OK?

I got an opinion, I'll state it, If you don't like it, don't read it and move on...
Oh noes! He said blow me! frown

Of course I guess you weren't really asking a question when you said this:

Quote:
With all the shit hitting the fan in the world today, isn't there something better to argue about than whether or not somebody says god in the pledge of allegience.
_________________________
Redsox1113: F*** Iran, the only thing that ever came out of iran was the iron sheik, and hulk hogan whipped his ass. F'em

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#209637 - 15/09/05 11:39 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Can some one let me know how to know if I want to read something, before I read it, so I'll know whether I want to read it?

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

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#209638 - 15/09/05 11:59 AM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
I think my POINT was that Islam WAS the political system...because that's the way the populationed there WANTED IT....

laugh

So - Its the same as US wanting OUR religeon to be part of our system...we want laws that allow religeon as part of our public lives...and we want those that DON'T want religeon as part of THEIR public lives to just accept that majority rules, and get over it.

laugh
I forget....what's "our" religion again?

I think the thing that people forget, a fundamental part of "our" political philosophy as Americans, is that our constitution is based on a respect and reverence for the rights of the individual, not the majority. Mob rule is not democracy. Although the "Under God" argument is a divisive non-issue to me, I must take exception to the reasoning that, because there are more Christians than non-Christians in this country (if there are), the rest of the nation should "just get over it." There have been lots of instances of injustice, far more disgusting and dishonorable that were widely practiced in this country, and this country would be a terrible place to live had the courts said, "Well, people like slavery, so I guess you have to be slaves. Sorry. Majority rules."
Constitutionality is not based on "hey, there's more of us than you, so shut the fuck up."

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#209639 - 15/09/05 12:28 PM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
If you are really against this, then you are not a true aethiest. Enough said. Move on.

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#209640 - 15/09/05 01:08 PM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
MyGoldX Offline
Member

Registered: 23/04/01
Posts: 1317
Loc: Santa Rosa, Ca
Quote:
Originally posted by Shahram:

I forget....what's "our" religion again?
All hail the allmighty DOLLAR
_________________________
Groovy Baby!

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#209641 - 15/09/05 03:21 PM Re: If you don't like the two words, don't say them!
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
"One nation , under Canada..."
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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