You're right. what i said was rude. I meant to say "build something from scratch", but I was in a fouler mood at that point than I am, now.

I don't see the need to give a counter-point description of how revolvers work, and why they're a bad idea. We've gone through this several times in 3 years; I figured there's no reason to keep saying the same thing over and over and over...

BECAUSE revolvers hinge in the middle, THAT'S why they don't transfer force like regular shackles do. Your problem is you keep thinking the ONLY way a tire can drop down is due to gravity. If it were an independent suspension, that would be true. But it's not. And once you finally figure that out, you'll realize why revolvers CAN'T provide traction once it reaches the droop point that the revolver shackle starts opening up.

Yes, they give you more flex. But you can't do anything with that more flex, because the only traction you have is coming from the weight of the tire when it drops down (with the hinged portion of the revolver), which means it's WORTHLESS offroad.

Does you no good to have a tire on the ground that has no traction. May as well be hanging up in the air than having a pivot hinge that makes it *look* like it can do something, when it actually can't.

Imagine, if you can, how a leaf spring setup works on a live axle. It's essentially a lever and a fulcrum. Push left side up, right side goes down. Not gravity related; force related. This is why a solid axle has MORE traction than an independent suspension, when offroading, because it's not all gravity. When 1 side is pushed up, there's an equal and opposite force pushing down on the other side (good 'ol Newton and his pesky laws). All a regular shackle does is allow the leaf spring a little more "flex", by allowing it to grow in length when it flattens out, and shrink in length when it arches more.

Now look at the revolver shackle setup. When left side gets pushed up, right side gets pushed down. Still has this same effect/result as a normal shackle, when the hinge is not pivoting. When a force pushes from one side, forcing the other down, it forces the shackle to stay closed, and there is no hinge action going on.

Now think of what it actually takes in order to get the hinge to let loose, and the shackle pivot downwards. Since it isn't an equal and opposite force that's pushing the side down, then the only thing you've got going for you, at that point, is the weight of the tire/hub/etc. pulling downwards. This is what causes the shackle to open up, hinge, and look killer 'cause of all the flex.

But it's not useable flex. The weight of a tire/rim/etc. alone is not enough to get traction to move a rig forward. It takes more downwards force than that. Essentially all you end up with with a Revolver is that in times when you would ordinarily have a tire hanging up in the air w/ regular shackles, you'll now have it sitting on the ground. But in neither situation do you have any useable traction.

So let's look at my recommended advice: get a real leaf spring that can flex to the limits you're wanting. Why would this give you useable traction with the flex?? Simple. Because when left side gets pushed up, it gives an equal and opposite force going down on right side. So you actually have traction due to more than just gravity.

So seriously, do we really have to go over this every 3-6 months or so? I can't explain simple physics to you any easier/simplier than this. There are 3 Newton's Laws. 2 of 'em apply to the spring setup. In a regular shackle case, you get the benefit of both of 'em. In a revolver, you get both of 'em up to the point that the revolver opens up, in which case you only get 1 law working for you. And gravity alone on a tire isn't giving you enough traction to do anything with it.

So I reiterate. If you want to look pretty on an RTI ramp, get revolvers. If you want flex that has a purpose (traction), get a real leaf pack.

Well if that's the case, then run airshocks to maximize traction. The airshocks can be setup to transfer the air ( stock setup, one inlet) when wheeling and can be split ( separate inlets) for on road to work like a swaybar.
I've used this setup for years with great sucess. I have ran them with stock springs and a custom pack. I've also ran them with and without a locker.
Just remember that not everyone is turning there rig into the hardcore wheelers or every will. So for those that don't want to order custom springs or add a locker, but want more, they work. Just ask the people that USE them

porsche,
What is your thought on the 2nd part of the revolver? The part that allows the leaf springs to twist. Do you see any disadvantage of this? Because this is another thing the revolvers do, that traditional shackles don't.

just another yahoo with absolutely no business dispensing advice.

"Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened [read] to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "

Twisting could only help. Leaf springs bind pretty bad when they're drooped to their lowest spot.

Orbit Eye springs allow for this rotation as well.

I was warned not to combined a front orbit eye with revolvers. A tech at Alcon springs adviced me against it on a street truck. It leaves the rear with no real lateral support. I was considering it at first when I order my new springs, not now.

Porshy - you keep missing the same point...I thought you were getting close to getting it in your own re-statement, as you added some words...but, you still missed it.

The tire droops AT first due to the down force of the suspension...I do believe that part is well understood.

The part you forget/didn't notice...is that AFTER the suspension is no longer pushing down...which happens BEFORE FULL DROOP...the TIRE/AXLE is what is pulling the tire down to droop further...and the leaves are pulling UP on the axle...REDUCING the weight on the tire.

As long as there is supported weight of the truck on the tire, the revolver is folded....and the leaf pack and shackle work as a normal one do.

When the tire is UNWEIGHTED by the TRUCK...the tire can droop...and, it will do so exactly like a regular tire droops...same physics.

So - once a corner is unweighted, either due to the terrain falling away, or, other corners being more weighted/lifted by the terrain rising, etc...the tire will try to stay sitting on the ground, while the suspension lengthens its reach.

On a regular suspension, when unweighted...the shackle swings, and, gravity pulls down the axle, and the leaves arch deeper, dropping the tire further...

..but, the further you droop the tire, the more and more resistance is pulling it back up...as the leaf gets too arched to go any further...and, finally the tire hangs.

On the Revolver, same sequence, except it can let the suspension lengthen a bit more, and does NOT pull up on the tire on the way down...so that the tire has MORE weight on it.

This is the critical part you're missing...

...a Revolver drooped tire is attached to the axle, and the leaf pack is under the axle...so - the weight on a drooped tire is the FULL weight of that half of the axle, leaf pack and tire.

...a Std shackled drooped tire has the same weight on it, but, that weight is REDUCED because the leaf pack is pulling UP on it.

...So the Revolver tire has MORE weight on it, not less...and therefore MORE traction, NOT less.

_________

You seem to think a revolver drooped tire has no traction...I think you think that because its been a long standing myth that's been repeated for years...but never thought long enough about WHAT weight we're talking about...the unsprung weight that provides ALL suspensions with traction ...once the tire has drooped past the suspension's neutral point.

_________________

The neutral point is where the unweighting occurs...with the best example being where you jack it up to change the shackles...that point right between supporting weight, and free fall.

__________________

Once you hit free fall, the Revolvers lets it drop with its FULL Weight... the std shackle set-up fights the droop as the leaf bends ... letting it drop with LESS WEIGHT.

________________

The plane takes off, trust me.



I've gone over stuff with the Revolvers open, and they DEFINETLY provide traction...the tires DO NOT magically spin despite being pressed against the ground hard enough to grab.

____________

Example 2 -

If it were a coil suspension, instead of a leaf pack...and the tire drooped past the coil's range (Like where the coil was at full length, and the axle was dropping further due to its own weight...

Are you telling me my jeep's coil sprung live axle leaves my tires with zero traction when the coil is at full length?

Yeah - we use our leaves for lateral stability...no coils/links for us.

People with Orbit Eyes like the extra flex relief...it really does let the pack twist with less strain on the leaves...works great.

The Revolvers do a similar function, as the central joint can articulate to relieve leaf strain as well.

Having BOTH is overkill, as either provides more than enough stress relief when the pack is articulated.

I looked at both options...the Orbit Eyes are not really DD type solutions, unless your mileage is not too high (I drive ALOT)...and they'll wear out under that kind of use a bit faster than I wanted.

Some freinds did get them though, and love'm.

Yes. That is EXACTLY what I'm telling you.

Because if it's truly, fully maxed out, to the point the vehicles weight is not pushing down at that corner any-what-so-ever, then no, you have no traction at that corner. All the tire is doing is APPEARING to have traction, since it's lightly touching the ground. But if you hit the gas, and you have open diffs, that wheel will spin like there's no tomorrow, and you'll go nowhere. And if you have a locker, that wheel will turn at the same rate as the tire that does have traction, and if that tire has enough traction to get you through, then you're going to believe they both had traction. But they didn't.

The one that was dangling had no traction, whatsoever. The weight of the tire/wheel assembly alone is not going to get you anywhere, at anytime. May as well have that tire sitting on ice, 'cause it's not doing a dyam thing for you. It's just dangling.

Wow. You completely mis-interpreted what I said. Again. For the upteenth time, as simple as I can give it to ya'...

If your tire's dangling, it has no traction.

Only way to get revolvers to unload is if the tire's dangling.

Dangling = No traction.

Got it, yet??

I'm guessing no. But go ahead and keep rephrasing what I say if it makes you feel better. By all means, let's make this go on and on and on and on and...



I hear your argument, but it's flawed. Revolvers don't open up until ALL the weight of the truck is off them. That's the only way a tire can dangle down... What you're arguing by saying the leaf spring doesn't pull up as much, blah blah, doesn't really matter. Because by the time the tire has started to dangle, aka, revolver opening up, it's already past the point where the truck's weight is off that corner.

You can't have any weight of the vehicle being supported when the revolver unloads; it's a physical impossibility, since it's a free hinge. So if it unloads, there's no weight of the rig at that corner, so there's no more traction available than the paltry amount that you get from having the tire & hub assembly sitting on the ground.

Which isn't going to be enough to matter one iota.

Tell you what. Go take your truck to somewhere you can dangle a tire. Turn off your ARB locker and put it into 2WD (so we can see for certain if there's any traction at that tire, and not just your front axle pulling you through). Then prov,e with a video, that the amount of traction at that tire will let you actually do something other than spin.

Do the video camera man a favor, though, and have him stand to the side of the truck. I wouldn't want any of the dirt/rocks that you are going to kick up with your rooster tail to injure him/her. It wouldn't be very nice of you to not warn them ahead of time.

And, if by some miracle you figure out how to disprove one of Newton's Laws, I'll buy you a beer, and never argue with you on this ever again.

You've failed to see that the same thing happens to a drooped tire on a truck w/o a revolver...at full droop, when both suspensions are hanging from the mounts....neither has traction then.

I am talking about the POINT that the regular shackle has allowed full droop...lets say X inches down.

The regular shackle DOES have no weight on the tire at that POINT.

The Revolver Shackled tire will still have SOME weight on it at the SAME X inches of droop, and a bit further down as well.

You keep missing that.

I've had OEM Shackles, then Calmini Shackles, then Revolver Shackles...I've seen the differences.

Its not like I have no basis for comparison.



Try thinking about it....I have, it makes a difference.

That's right folks. DISREGARD all of the major 4x4 publications who hve universally maligned revolver shackles. Listen to TJ and go buy 'em.

Which publications? Everything I found online, had nothing but good reviews for them. Well there was one article I found that didn't like them. But when I was doing my research, I found most 4x4 publications spoke highly of the revolvers.

LOL - Petersons JUST listed them in their Mods that Work section of the magazine.

Universally? LOL

And yeah, the reviews are positive, not negative. That's reviews, people who tried them out, and reported to the public...not mere parroting of myths without a test.

The only universal seems to be Jeff's fondness for the used car salesman jpg he posts as if it means something, other than that he disagrees...or, more often, wants to jump in to make trouble/take an adversarial stance for the fun of it.



Rather than more unfounded myths, how about some experiments or something concrete to refer to?

Call people names, insult people, all personal attacks...

What about the facts?

One article from JP that ALSO says JEFF'S steel bumper is ALSO a wasted mod, is hardly either an authoritative source or universal....given that it was a throw-away joke article (fill).

I'm giving explainations...you're attacking the messenger.

If the message is vulnerable...show why...give explanations that make some sense...or...just keep posting used car sales man pics.

:rolleyes:

Besides...its not like I'm selling them or anything....I'm not even saying everyone should buy them, any more than I say they should all buy Bilstein 7100's, etc...

...its for people who want to get some more articulation w/o buying a flexier, higher lift spring pack...or buying even longer lift shackles that might exacerbate reverse arching, etc.

I think Carlton? posted his droop with the flexy pack option..it was about the same as the Revolver droop IIRC, I forget which thread...we compared in it.



I was trying to get across here that all tire droop past the neutral point in the suspension is subject to the same forces...and, a leaf pack that has to bend and be pulled into more droop arch, simply doesn't put more weight on a tire that a tire drooping without that resistance.



If someone can point out a reasonable physical explanation for the leaf pulling up more, making the tire push down more...I'll listen.

No, the Revolver can't still have "a bit further down". At the point the revolver is at the same level of flex as the maxed out regular shackle, ie the point that the revolver starts to open up, that's it for traction in both cases. The fact that the revolver opens up and lets the tire literally fall lower doesn't mean it has magically created more traction; it just means it LOOKS like there's more traction, 'cause the tire is touching the ground instead of hanging in the air.

But the point is, a revolver doesn't open up until there's no more weight of the vehicle on the spring. Which means the only time it opens up is during the time there is NO ADDITIONAL TRACTION AVAILABLE, no matter whether the tire dangles in mid-air, or actually gets to take a rest by lightly touching the ground.

There is no traction available from the tire once it's reached the point the revolver starts to open up. The exact second the revolver starts to open up is the least amount of traction available from that tire. No, it doesn't get any worse as it dangles on down, but it doesn't magically get any better, either. At the point it starts to open, traction is next to 0. And as it dangles, it's still next to 0.

Which is why I say get a real spring pack that gives you the same flex point as what the revolver will get you, if you really feel you need that much flex. Because at the final point of full flex, neither the revolver nor the leaf will have any traction. But everywhere on the way down, the leaf pack version will have traction, whereas the revolver stopped having traction from the moment it started to open up.

You get flex w/ revolvers. You don't get traction. The added flex is useless unless you get traction along with it.

Seriously. Go make your video, and silence us "uninformed doubters". I challenge you to prove they work with something other than your illogical ponderings.

I've been reading this thread and have not really seen this point discussed and I'm curious what you have to say about it.
Take a rear axel completely removed from the truck so there is no weight placed on the springs.
Place one wheel on a brick, tie a piece of string, with a weight gauge to the wheel on the other side and lift it so the axel is horizontal. Measure the weight on the gauge, I have no idea what it is but lets say 200lbs.
Now put the axel back in the truck but only connect one leaf spring. Put a brick under the wheel on the side with the leaf spring connected. Now lift the side without the leaf spring with the string and gauge. The weight measured will be more than the 200lbs measured in the first case because we now have a second class lever.

So the downward force on a drooping tire on the ground is made up of the following
Gravity
Shocks
Force from spring (+body weight) on the drooping side, this will become negative at some point
Force from spring (+body weight) on the stuffed side, this will eventually come to 0 (tire to ground) when you hit the bump stop.

Now if we get to full extension and unbolt the axel from the spring pearch and measure the force between the axel and body and between spring pearch and body, what would we measure? And what does it mean?

Richard

'Nother post for emphasis..



Pay careful attention. I'll speak slowly so TJ can understand.

Q. What happens to the leaf spring of this flexed Revolver suspension when the tire first gets pushed up into the wheel well, from this position?

A. For the first couple inches, there is very little resistance as the revolver is folding up. The spring is not starting to compress until after the revolver is folded back neatly into place.

Q. If there were a normal shackle in that photo, what would happen as soon as the tire started being pushed up into place?

A. The leaf spring would begin compressing instantaneously, providing a resistant force.

Q. How does a leaf spring work?

A. When a force is applied, either upwards or downwards, a spring flexes based on it's spring constant, to resist the force.

Q. If the leaf spring does not compress, as the tire was raised, was any force being resisted?

A. No. It was dangling in it's natural state.

Q. How is traction generated?

A. It's the normal force (perpendicular) to the ground, multiplied by the friction coefficient of the two surfaces.

Q. What would the traction (aka, friction) be as soon as the tire began to be compressed in the revolver situation as in that picture?

A. The weight of the tire, hub, axle, etc. multiplied by the friction coefficient between the tire & the surface. Until the revolver is folded back onto itself, there is no additional force acting downward on the spring.

Q. What would the normal force be in the normal shackle situation as soon as the tire began to be compressed?

A. It would be the weight of the tire, hub, axle, etc., PLUS the force provided by the spring,. all of that multiplied by the friction coefficient.

Q. Wouldn't the force of the spring be acting negatively (if down is positive) on the assemblies, therefore negating the regular spring advantage?

A. Yes, but no. Yes, the math of it would show the spring would technically be pulling the axle assembly upwards, therefore a reduction in traction from the total. However, since the spring is still connected to the revolver, the revolver can't actually droop w/o taking the spring properties into effect. So at the point the revolver starts opening, it has already reached the maximum up-pull of the leaf spring. Therefore, it's already at it's lowest amount of traction available in the equation. It does not change at any point in the revolver travel.

So for example, if the spring was pulling -5 lbs of force (remember, up is negative), it reaches that -5 lbs at the exact instant the revolver begins to open up. Whether the revolver is open 0" to 3", the same 5 lbs are pulling up. But on the regular leaf suspension that flexes to the same point, the full -5 lbs of pull is only at the lowest point, aka, the equivalent of the 3" open revolver. As soon as the regular shackle leaf pack begins compressing, this -5 lbs of pull begins to reduce to 0.

So no, the spring will not negate the advantage of the regular spring. Both a revolver and the leaf pack have the most amount of traction at the point the spring force is 0. However, the revolver will not even start to begin to reach that point until after it has already closed together.

Conclusion:

Through the handy-dandy method of linearity, you can move the origin of force for the spring pack down to the most fully open position (fully flexed out) of the wheel, and begin from there. This makes it easier to visualize (except for TJ, which will probably argue this point, though he would be wrong to do so. This is simple statics/dynamics at work, here, and the calculations/rules for doing this are taught in 100 level engineering classes; in other words, it ain't rocket science.)

Once you do this, you will find the revolver doesn't start adding traction from the spring until it's fully closed, but the regular leaf spring starts adding traction from the moment it starts compressing.

In other words, and one more time for those that have fallen asleep:

IF YOU WANT FLEX WITH TRACTION, GET A REAL LEAF PACK. IF YOU WANT FLEX FOR AN RTI RAMP, USE REVOLVERS.

Hell, no one's probably awake anymore anyway.

I do appreciate that you at least expressed what you were trying to get across though.

(For the rest of you, I'll type quietly to avoid waking anyone...)

OK - I think it comes down to a difference in opinion/experiences....I've measured and observed, and know what's important to me, and how it really works.

We essentially are only really at odds about the narrow range - about 3" of travel, where your leaf has a faint push left, and then hangs the tire..and mine had the same several hundred pounds of down force all the way through, and down a bit more...and you prefer the faint push of the almost fully extended leaf plus axle/tire...and I prefer the weight of the axle/tire /leaves, through the same point, w/o a reduction in weight against the leaves...

You'd like a little more weight/followed by progressively less, and I'd prefer a little less at first, and more later.

eh.

Maybe its just subjective.

It works on the Jeeps and Toys, and now the X...and for me.

It doesn't do what you're ("Yes and No") calculations would indicate, mostly because of the way you applied them.

So - You are correct in some assumptions...its not like you're nutz...its just that you over estimated the actual effects that do occur.

If I had to do it over again, sure, in a heart beat.

Would I advize everyone to do it? - Only if they are willing to set up a long travel suspension properly, especially if limited in flex by needing stiff spring packs for support/street sharpness, etc.

Same advice for ANY long travel suspension mod, including leaves that can give the same flex, etc.



Think about shackle swing...its missing from all of your above concepts...and, its about as close to Revolver behavior as you're going to get (Unless you are now running out to get Revolvers...)




OK - the rest of you can wake up now...)

Here is that video you requested.

Revolver opening untill wheel spin - open dif.

The revolver opens in a very linear fashion starting with the front wheel lifted only about one foot. When the wheel spins the front tire is 31" higher than the ground.

As you can see in the video there was no point where the revolver rapidly unloaded. In fact the wheel spin only happened right before the wheel was ready to lift off the ground. After the wheel did spin I put the truckin 4x4 to see how much more it would take to lift the tire and the rear tire was in the air before the front was 32" off the ground.

I am trying to arrange a time to get the X on a freight scale so that I can graph the exact height/weight comparison of the OEM and the Revolver shackles.

Thank you for showing that video. Doesn't address what I was hoping to see completely (in the conditions; not in what happened. Now do that in a situation where one tire is compressed, and the other is flexed, and that'd be the situation I was hoping to see. I claim that will increase the wheel spin that happened in the video, and at an earlier point as well), but at least it's an attempt in the right direction to settle the discussion, instead of TJ and my BS.

Porsche, I am not trying to be thick here but I do not understand what situation you want to see. The passenger side was completely compressed to the bumpstop and the driver side was drooped to the point of slipping. If you are asking for me to back up the ramp with one tire untill one tire slips I can film that as well. I really don't think it will show as much as this did though.

Just describe exactly what you want to see that I can reproduce in a controlled environment and I will try to show it.

I think the most ignored fact in why I feel revolvers are helpfull comes from the lever effect of the rear axle. The spring and bumpstop act as a fulcrum with about 1/6 the length of the lever (axle) on the compressed side and the rest on the drooped side. Basicly you have a see saw with one side being about 10 inches long and the other being 60 inches long. For the sake of easy math lets say that 1800 lbs is sitting on the compressed side, 1/6 that or 300 lbs is pushing the opposite side against the ground untill it is restricted by the limits of the shackle/spring on the drooped side at which time those same forces are being applied to that hardware. This is why you still have traction on the drooped side untill it is ready to lift off the ground (when it has no more droop left.) While you are losing traction from the 50/50 dispersion of level ground, you should still have roughly 16% of the total load on the rear axle providing traction to the drooped tire until the hardware is holding back this 1/6 of the rear axle load (causing the tire to begin to lift.)

The article that I saw was in Four Wheeler magazine about 3 1/2 years ago. I couldn't find it posted online. They also make the vehicle more prone to rollovers (lotsa info on that one).

I have seen at least 2 other articles denouncing them, but don't have 'em anymore. (I do not put any stock posted in "Peterson's Redneck Bling" articles)

Jp doesn't like 'em:

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/trail/154_0704_lamest_4x4_products_ever/index.html

The guys at Pirate: "..They are for ramp fags.."

S10 Extremists don't like 'em: "...They really aren\'t any good for anything but ramp champs...."

....

All publications/conjecture aside, the bottom line is Physics. If your body weight is not enough traction to push the vehicle out by hand, the weight of half your axle (-w-wheel) ain't either. They may help on occasion, but not when you need real traction. They ruin leaf springs and frame mounts and increase the chance of both highway and trail rollovers.

Go down to Independence in Penrose and find ONE, just one person with revolver shackles. You won't.

The passenger side revolver is opened up partially the whole time in the video. Is there something I'm missing about that side that keeps it from closing up all the way at full compression??

WOW, This really is some good reading. Maybe a little redundant here and there, but I never gave the issue so much thought. Trust me , I'm no physics major and I'm still kind of new to the whole 4WD thing. How much differance are we talking about here at the point of traction loss? Are we splitting hairs?
I think the truck would roll before it reached this point, but the further down the tire and axle hung, doesn't the wieght of it increase therefore acting a little like a counter balance that would potentially prevent rolling until the driver could correct?
If there's a question of traction, the vehicle wieght is transfered from the drooping tire to ...where? the opposing tire? the front of the truck? Are not 3 tires effective in most situations? If the wieght is shifted to the compressed tire, doesn't that improve traction on that tire?
If Articulation=Droop
Droop= Loss of traction
Loss of traction = BAD
could that logic be carried to the front end?
SAS=Articulation
Articulation=Droop...Etc.,etc.
Really, I am learning a lot here. Sadly I'm on a gov't computer that won't allow me to view the video, but I will at the first oppertunity.
In general, I agree that traction is definetly lost at or just before the Revolver opens (see picture below) But, in my expieriance, with front and rear lockers, I get all the traction I need...Ofcourse, there aren't too many 'serious' trails around here and finding a good rock garden isn't always easy :rolleyes:


VAXC PIX