You made it VERY clear that they would lose traction the second they started to unfold...

..as your premise was that they would be "unweighted" at that moment...

...as you assumed that the only forces pushing the drooped tire down could be the leaf spring...and if that was not pushing on it any more...there would be ZERO downforce.

That was your premise.

You THEN said PROOF would be a video of the tire slipping the instant the shackle unfolded...as you postulated that from there down, there'd be no weight on it.

So - We actually SHOT a video of the shackle unfolding...and the tire DID NOT slip.

So - You said it would slip...it didn't.

It provided traction LONGER than the regular lift shackle did....

So the USEFUL DROOP was better than it was with a conventional shackle.

OK - It was better...not ZERO.

It would not matter if it was on dirt, or concrete...as it was the SAME FOR BOTH SHACKLES.

At what point will this all make sense to you?



I swear I know you are a bright guy....but, this is YOUR plane on the tread mill.



PS - You have to fully understand something to be able to explain it in your own words.

____________________________________________________________

One more time - ALL the physics are needed to understand this...NOT just the one's you're using.

Its a live axle....when one side is stuffed, it applies leverage to the other side...

If I pick up one side of a see saw...the other side is pushed down by the same force, etc.

Trust me...its true.

_______________________________________________________

No shit sherlock... This is true in a regular shackle.

Which part of DIRT verses ASPHALT are you not getting, exactly? Yes, the surface DOES matter. Proof of that? Drive 50 mph on asphalt. Then drive 50 mph on snow. Which one has better traction?

Actually, don't (go 50)....

Revolvers have been known to cause rollovers on asphalt as well!

Well, instead of physics, which wasn't working out for you...you NOW say that the revolver ONLY has traction on pavement.

Does that mean that on DIRT, you think the REVOLVER would slip first?



You ADMIT that the leverage PUSHING DOWN THE DROOPED SIDE, when the opposite side is STUFFED...is the SAME for ANY live axle with ANY SHACKLE.



So why would a revolver shackle change that?



Its NOT that pavement doesn't give better traction than ice...its just that the principle is that same...its just a question of degree for the test...when, not if, it would slip...I'm sure BOTH would slip sooner on ice...BUT -

Look - THE PAVEMENT WAS THE SAME TRACTION COEFFICIENT FOR BOTH SHACKLES....and the order of slippage was Regular shackle slipped first...THEN the Revolver.



If it was "the pavement"...WHY did the regular lift shackle slip FIRST?

The thread lives, so that the Evil Myth can die...

OR

So Xtrail, wuddya think?

B. .... You beat me to it.... I was going to post this once we reached page 8 of the same thing over and over and over..........

I dunno they seem to work pretty well in the dirt and rock from what I've seen.

Tell you what come out and try the lines marty takes on the rubicon and see how your rear suspension compares

the only way to get the full advantage of revolvers is if you run a brushguard, euro tailights, and lowering springs

TJ, for the love of all that is good and holy...

A revolver acts JUST LIKE a regular shackle when it's folded up.

As soon as it starts opening up, there's more physics involved than just the lever action that WE BOTH AGREE EXISTS IN REGULAR SETUP...

I've ALREADY detailed, in depth, what happens when a revolver opens up, and what forces are acting. You're just being stubborn at this point to differentiate it... A part of me wants to think you already wised up, but are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

One more time... Yes, the video was a very good proof of absolutely nothing I was talking about.

A revolver LOSES traction as it opens up FASTER than a real leaf pack that flexes. I detailed the physics for you over a week ago.

And since it LOSES traction as it opens up, the AMOUNT it will lose will vary depending on the surface. On ASPHALT, the shackle STILL loses traction, it's just that there's more available to LOSE before it a tire can slip when compared to dirt. THIS is why the surface material is important.

How much PERCENTAGE of LOSS is not a variable. That will remain the same. However, the OVERALL amount of traction available will depend on the surface.

Let's look at numbers... Asphalt has a coefficient of friction of 0.8. Dirt has roughly 0.3.

So let's say, arbitraily the tire starts out with traction (friction) equal to 100 lbs weight x the coefficient of friction. And let's say the revolver loses traction linearly through 5" of opening, so 20% loss per inch of opening.

So on asphalt, the traction looks like this:

100 * 0.8 = 80 lbs

START: 80 lbs Total loss: 80 lbs. 20% of 80 lbs = 16 lbs per inch.

1" open: 64 lbs (20% less than 80 lbs)
2" open: 48 lbs
3" open: 32 lbs
4" open: 16 lbs
5" open: 0 lbs

And on dirt, the traction looks like this:

100 * 0.3 = 30 lbs

START: 30 lbs Total loss: 30 lbs. 20% of 30 lbs is 6 lbs per inch.

1" open: 24 lbs (20% less than 30 lbs)
2" open: 18 lbs
3" open: 12 lbs
4" open: 6 lbs
5" open: 0 lbs

So as long as 6 lbs of friction (traction) is enough to keep you moving, then it's all good even at full open on dirt. But if it's, say, 16 lbs, then on pavement at 4" opening, you keep moving. But on dirt, your wheel started spinning somewhere between 2" and 3" opening. And the higher amount needed, the sooner you slip on dirt. That's the nature of the surface, and THAT'S why the surface is important in consderations.

So you're going to argue that it won't matter when you compare a revolver to a regular shackle, 'cause the regular won't travel as far... That's great. THAT WAS NOT AND IS NOT MY ARGUEMENT, SO QUIT GOING BACK TO IT AS IF YOU'RE COUNTERING MY CLAIM....

Here is my arguement against Revolvers, as simply as I can put it:

We KNOW the revolver has to be losing traction faster than a spring pack with equivalent droop limits, because the cantilever force is NO LONGER ACTING if the revolver can actually open up. It CAN'T be acting on the shackle, elsewise it would PUSH the revolver CLOSED!!! But the canteliver force IS ACTING on a full spring pack through that flexing range, because it is STILL PUSHING that side of the axle down!!!

So as soon as a revolver starts opening up, it's past it's peak traction because it's no longer being pushed down. And it's going to lose traction very, very quickly the more it opens up, as the math above shows. And not only that, the effect of that loss will show up SOONER on dirt than it will on pavement, because the available friction is MUCH less.

And at this point, I'm done with this thread. TJ, I'll see you in couple months on the next one of these damn things.

Not to get too far into a pissing match or anything, but my stock suspension (spring over) on the Frontier used to flex almost as much as what your photos are showing... And at this point, if those photos are truly it, you really, really don't want me coming out to MOAB. I'd be too tempted to use your Xterra as an RTI ramp for the Fronty...

Not that that I can really claim anymore than a morbid curiosity about what's still being said here. After 4 pages, the point was made. I'll go back to the pimped out green X.
I am genuinely curious though as to where you come up with this:

What exactly do you do in your spare time ? And the comment about useing the X AS an RTI ramp at MOAB is just GAY and childish

Porsche -

What are you NOW saying discusses GRADUAL loss in weighting as the Revolver unfolds...

When you explained the physics the FIRST TIME, you said the SECOND IT STARTED TO UNFOLD IT WAS UNWEIGHTED.

NOW you say its losing weight as it goes down, NOT that its unweighted as soon as it unfolds.

You have NOT addressed the fact that the leaf spring is pulling the axle UP at the end of its droop travel..NOT pushing it down..the droop is FIGHTING the leaf at the end...meaning LESS weight on the tire at the end of droop, NOT MORE.

You are also ignoring that the Leaves' DOWN FORCE ITSELF is dropping, afterall...the leaf can support the full weight of the truck ONLY at ride height, and Less and Less as the tire drops....so the leaf is providing less and less down force...and, frankly...as soon as it hits the neutral point (regular shackle rattle...)...it is SUBTRACTING downforce, NOT adding it.

IE: You still think the leaf is the only traction weight.



You ALSO have NOT explained WHY THE REGULAR LIFT SHACKLE SLIPPED FIRST.

I understand the frictional proportions you listed, and understand the thoretical nature of the discussion....

....but you still have not accounted for all that's going on...and that's why you don't get it yet....and why you don't have a good explaination for why the Revolver did not slip when you said it would, and why the regular shackle DID slip BEFORE the Revolver did.

I know you can't see this yet...and that you even think its me who can't see your point...but I see your point...and raise THIS ONE:

AGAIN - the actual coefficient was the SAME, the only variable was the shackle....so - You say its because the weight required to keep from slipping on a lower coefficient of friction surface would be greater, which is true, but, its still proportional...

....and - As you claim the revolver unfolds and loses tire weighting...you never explained how you went from zero as soon as its unfolded, to the DEGREE of unfolding changing the tire weighting...yet...the "Physics" you were quoting claimed that the second it unfolded, there was no weight....

....and that there was only weight when the shackle was folded...

Two excercises to illustrate - Trying to solve these may bring it to light:

...How would a 1/4 unfolded shackle support more weight than a 3/4 unfolded shackle, etc? (This is the part where you think the bee can't fly.)

....and explain:

"Why the shackle with the best traction would slip FIRST" - as this is your NEW PREMISE.



PS - and why do the people who HAVE revolvers NOT have the trouble your Myth would indicate?

I didn't explain it, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT MY COMPARISON... Damn you're thick... Keep an eye on the ball, not the clown bouncing it, and you'll do much better in this discussion...

Porsche -

You state that the revolvers provide droop, but that the drooped tire has no traction compared to a regular lift shackle.

OK - that's the ball...the traction.

The ENTIRE ball was that point.

The ENTIRE thrust of my discussion was to refute that Myth.

If you mean the only thing you NOW stand by as a fact, is that dirt gives worse traction than pavement...we are in 100% agreement.



If you want to keep insisting that the revolver gives droop that doesn't give any traction...despite overwhelming evidence, including a video...

...and despite evidence that the leaves do not add as significant a down force as the droop drops the tire from ride height...

...and despite the people who HAVE revolvers saying the Myth isn't true, they don't have the theorized problems (Their bees can fly...your calculations are wrong...)...

...then, you can keep your face paint on.



PS - this is not personal - I like you, its just you are the only one left attempting to support the Myth....which we're trying to bust.

I am sitting here thinking.

With a standard shackle, if I put a jack on the frame close to the left rear wheel and start jacking. The Xterra will lift and the tire will stay on the ground up to the point where the spring has reached maximum droop or the end of the shock is reached (which ever comes first).

If the leaf spring was off the vehicle and you look at the arch, that is the position of the spring with no force on it. So when I started to jack up the vehicle, up to the point where the spring gets to the same arch as with no load, it is providing down force on the tire. Once it's passed that point, the axle and tire are pulling down on the spring until it can no longer flex and the tire will lift off the ground.

In my mind, as long as the tire touches the ground, the tire still has "some" traction due to the weight of the axle and tire.

Now, if you add a revolver to that and repeat. When you start jacking on the frame, the vehicle will go up and the spring will still apply down force until the spring reaches the same arch as with no load. At that point, the revolver will start to unfold and the tire is pulling the shackle open rather and the springs no longer apply down force, up to the point where the shackle is completely unfolded. At that point, the tire keeps pulling down on the springs until they reached their maximum flex at which point the tire will lift off the ground.

As with a standard shackle, in my opinion, as long as the tire touches the ground, it provides "some" traction from the weight of the tire and axle.

I think everybody agrees that a tire that touches the ground must have somewhat better traction than a tire in the air.

My post will never settle your disagreement and also note that I don't have any experience with the revolver nor do I have hard core off road experience. In fact, I still have my rear sway bar connected, so if I wanted better articulation, I'd start with that.

This was just how in my mind the suspension works with and without a revolver.

Dude, you're arguing a revolver vs. reg. shackle. I'm arguing revolver vs. flexy leaf pack...

Don't believe that's my arguement? Let me cut/paste a few of my posts so far:

Page 1:

Page 2:

Page 3:

Page 6:

And just in case... I'll add some more...

TJ: we aren't comparing a revolver shackle to a stock suspension setup. At least, I'm not. You seem to be. I don't know why. What we are comparing is 2 different ways of adding travel to the suspension, revolvers, or a new flexy leaf pack. Of the two ways to get more travel, 1 way (revolvers) results in significantly less traction than the other. Period.

To answer 56kz2slow, yes, as long as a tire is on the ground, it gets "some" traction. However, as I stated from the very beginning, as soon as the revolver opens up, it is not enough traction to still move the rig. 56k, you've got the idea of how a revolver works. What I thought TJ and I were arguing at the beginning was how much traction is enough to make the truck move.

I didn't realize until a few pages ago that he was comparing revolvers to regular shackles, without changing the leaf pack... He missed my point from the very start of the thread.

I also didn't realize at the start I needed to qualify that statement, and say we were talking about OFFROAD, aka, dirt... I assumed that was a given, but I guess that was too much to assume...

Bring it and all the $ you have to any Xterra event and we will have a little contest

Funny thing is I've seen a lot of talk but very little or not action pictures of your truck ever so put up or shut up. Lets see some thing from moab or any thing from you but a bunch of chat

So - You agree that a revolver shackle gives useful traction when drooped, and it is not leaving the drooped tire unweighted.

I wish you'd made that clear...all those physics references claiming the tire had ZERO traction made me think that was your point, and, as THAT was the MYTH...

...That's what I was addressing.

OK, you can wipe off the face paint.

As I stated as well...there's no point in a Revolver shackle if you have a flexy leaf pack, its overkill...

As I stated...the perfect function for the revolver is when you need a STIFFER leaf pack to handle heavy loads...but want the DROOP of the flexy pack for articulation.

The Myth was that this droop did not provide traction......

Now that we all agree that the Revolver's Droop provides traction as good as, or better than a regular shackle's traction...

The Myth is FINALLY Busted.

Sorry for the earlier confusion.

Yep. I'm all talk.... I'm just a web wheeler.

Hey -

We settled this...lets not add personal attacks here.

Porsche is my Bud.......so lets not get into a "I wheel more than you" type of pissing match.

Lets face it...I wheel about every day...but I don't base what I know on how many times I wheeled, just on what I learned from it all.

Theoretically, if someone were a very fast learner...they could wheel once, and know everything.

So is this going to escalate as the years go on!?!

Don't confuse a feud with a technical discussion.