Someone on stock tires could say the same of your choice of going to MT's. A talented driver might find better lines that didn't require the more aggressive tread, the greater clearance from your larger tires, and might also get by without the lift. If you aren't to the point that you feel you need the locker, fine. If you are the Mario Andretti of 4 wheeling and don't need any mod's, fine. Belittling others who run mod's you don't have is pointless. Your statement above is ridiculous. At what point do you think a locker is necessary? Not just on both axles, but start with just adding a rear locker. The same could also be said of buying a 4 wheel drive. I've seen some people do amazing things in 2WD, and I've heard them make the same statements that you are making. I certainly don't feel bad about having 4. Do you? They think *you* are a worse driver for giving in to buying a 4WD. No, you don't gain clearance by buying a locker. However, you gain traction through means other than airing down. Don't air down until you need it (or air down less) and don't lose the clearance you would have otherwise if you *had* aired down to begin with. Kind of like the option to turn on and off a locker. Air down when you need to, until then use skill. You may surprise yourself one day by buying a locker. Do you have to justify it to some other guy who thinks it's superfluous? Nope. Just get out and enjoy.

how was I belittling them? I was simply stating that they should not rely on the locker, and let it get to their head, and to get through stuff with as little help as possible. It makes you a better driver. Explain how driving up everything with a locker makes you a better driver? There are skilled people who wheel with all the goodies, there are skilled people who wheel with limited goodies, there are unskilled people who wheel with not many goodies, and there are unskilled people who wheel with all the goodies.

All are OK except the last one. At least to me. If you are in the 3rd group for a long time than I would probably not want to wheel with you. But if you are in the last group and really don't know shit about wheeling, but have a trail rig that could do it all, I would worry. Those are the people who get into situations that they don't know how to get out of.

As Ian said, spot yourself. You learn a lot.

I watch and learn. I teach when I feel I have something to share. The rest of the time I just shut up.

When ARB makes Air Operated Knobbies (AOK), you let me know! That'd be killer!

holy crap! We agree!

I totally hear oyu on using your locker when it's not needed. sometimes it's just cool to do. I guess my point is simply not to rely on it as in, "Hey, this is a hill, time for the locker!" I am much prouder of myself when I can get up something with as little extra help as possible.

So yeah, we do agree.

hoodathunk.

My old Chevy shortbed had a rear locker. Sucker would crawl up anything. I got alot of confidence driving that tank.

The Xterra is a totally different offroad experience. I think it is closer to my truck now with just the rear sway removed, better rear suspension and Muds. But on hard dirt with small loose gravel on an Arizona hill I sure miss my locker. Just enough to get you through the undulation with out digging the hole deeper for the next guy.

If I ever get the cash a locker is going in. Lots more trails I can go on.

Marshall

I'm trying to analyze why Matt's posts
'set me off'.

When I run with non-Xterra 4x4's groups,
the overwhelming response to the lockers is
very positive. There are usually a mix of
totally stock to fairly trick rigs on the runs.

I make no secret to the fact that I am fairly new to 4x4'ing. Even from the the most exhaulted 4x4 guru's I am encourged to use the lockers as learning tools.

"Ok - now try this. You want to go this way and then that way, etc. See - you can do it."

I feel I have learned far more (and faster) by using lockers than by not using them.

So I was taken back when I saw the posts saying 'don't do that'.

I doubt either one of us is going to change his viewpoint. I just wanted to present a different one.

Toy Man

hey, that's cool. I guess I just want to make sure you "keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." :p

Just got back from a trip up north: ghost towning around Bodie, off-road in the Alabama Hills, Death Valley mines, and Mule Canyon near Calico.

Happy, happy, happy... The locker turned red runs into green. It almost seemed like another stage of evolution: an "Unjeep"... all the comfort and reliability of an X and the goat-like characteristics of a Jeep. :p

See ya on the trail,
Doc

Lock the rear and LSD the front. A Detroit Truetrac LSD has no clutches to wear out. An LSD will give better overall performance ( combination of on/off-road ). An LSD will be easier on components in the front end. Remember, lockers are "low side finders". They tend to take you to the low side of your line when off-camber, on slippery surfaces, ect.

The LSD up front will make steering much better off-road than a locker. An LSD with an automatic tranny is a great combination. You can use your left foot braking to engage when a front wheel has left the ground. IMHO

As for the arguement that lockers and traction devices are cheating, here is my take. Learn to drive with open diffs. Install locker/LSD and learn all over again. Now, drive harder obstacles with the combination of skills learned. With lockers/LSD, others will watch while you wheel.

Perhaps you could point us to the vendor selling these for the Xterra? :rolleyes: :p

Pop your eyes back in your head and use those fingers on yourself. The above mention of the Detroit LSD was in reference to an earlier post about gearless LSD. My above comments were a "generalization", if you could not tell. Are you saying "in general" that no one sells lockers for the rear or LSD's for the front? My whole post was my opinion that a LSD front/Locker rear was a great setup. Why don't you read more closely and keep your "tuff guy" smilies to yourself?

Meant in fun dude...ARB available for the rear, and possible 300zx LSD for the front. I agree that it is a good setup. I was more commenting on the lack of choice for the Xterra.

A front LSD is available for the X... Calmini and several folks market it. It is a clutch type, though, but easy on CV joints and hubs... you burn up the clutches before you blow a joint.

ARB also offers a front locker through Automotive Customizers. They take a standard RD27 and do some magic to it.

Thanks for the points on LSDs versus lockers up front. The point about off camber driving problems with lockers is very clearly spelled out in the ARB warnings.

Another point with front lockers is the strain on drive components... the stock automatic hubs will go first, or a CV joint if the X has a lift (extreme angle). A front locker generally means manual hubs with release fuses to deal with the new stress. A blown hub fuse is only $15 and 20 minutes of down time.

This is a great board for kicking ideas around.

See ya,
Doc
(Xtilla, the UnJeep)
http://members.cox.net/xtilla

Who else besides Calmini markets the front LSD for the R200A axle? Seeing how it takes a small amount of additional machining of a C200-application unit to work in the R200A diff and Calmini treats the details as something of a trade secret, I don't think anyone else would be doing so. Then again, AC does the same with the ARB C200 unit...

Brent

AC is also offerring an LSD for the Xterra, whether it acctually fits or not is another matter.

I will change my viewpoint on
using/not using lockers on initial
efforts.

My new answer is to signup for
this course:
4x4 101

Warning: Taking this course will require
you to unlearn how you drive. It can be
brutal to your ego to be told you are doing
it wrong every couple of minutes but
Harold is THE master.

You will also return with with a burning
desire to install ARB lockers and Calmini
transfer case gears.

Toy Man - with a bruised ego but GREATLY improved
4x4 skills.

Told ya...

Bummer man,
Brent

Ya know, on one of my visits to Calmini, we spent a better part of the afternoon complaining about how good help is hard to find. That's not really an excuse, I know, but ask to talk to Steve....he makes things happen (and he will take the time to talk to you!).

Man, for $1000 I'd rather get a locker and spend the next 14 years figuring it out myself! Do you think he spent $1000 to learn what he knows????

It would be the best $1000 you could spend.
Will save you more than that in damage to
your X plus the skills you learn plus the
chance to run the Rubicon. I think he spent
a LOT more than that to learn what he knows.

Toy Man

How much do you think?

Several hundred thousand dollars minimum.

He has been at this since the 80's,
traveled and driven all over the world,
was a finalist for the Camel Trophy
several times, has had a variety of
Mercedes 4x4's and is probably the world's leading authority on Mercedes G-wagons.

An impressive dude.

Toy Man

No doubt!
BUT, are you trying to say that he still doesn't damage parts? Are you trying to say that with this class I won't damage parts?

Finally, in the "art" of wheeling, is it the trip or the destination?

I'm not trying to be the perfect wheeler in one class......what's the challenge? The fun is the development of the skill. I'd still put my $1000 in some hardcore X stuff.

The guys that buy the mega rigs with rockwell 2.5's and 4WS have kinda lost touch with wheelin.......too heavy in equipment. That class, also, seems too heavy in theory etc. Where's the fun?

Not if you've been doing it the correct way all along.

What say we start a fund to pay for Ian's "tuition" and see if Ian is all he thinks he is or not

Brent