think the real issue here is he fact that this nut job could buy 2 hand guns with so little effort. If a back ground check had shown that he had problems and had been reported for stalking etc. might have been a factor..

On the news they talked about that... Pretty much it comes down to he was a self admitted patient and therefore the fact that he was self admited, it would only show up on his medical records and not show up on any systems radar as being a danger. If someone is forcefully admitted, i think that goes in a system that is accessible by the background check. As far as I know, medical records have Hippa protecting them and not available to the general public?

It's not a bad gun control law that enabled him to purchase the handguns, it's bad privacy laws that don't give anyone any inclination to know this guy was a nutjob.

We don't need more laws. We do need consistent laws. Passing one law that degrades the effectiveness of another doesn't make sense.

It's like wiping before you poop.

Exactly. All the laws do is prevent the model citizens from protecting themselves. Criminals are going to get their guns one way or another. The rest of us are just sitting ducks until the police arrive. :rolleyes: It's funny to see everyone (mainly the media) care how he got them like that matters.

First let me say I don't pretend to know the solution to all this, but here's my problem with the "arm everybody" argument. Leave your home and go to any crowded area, or just drive down the freeway. Look around at the people you see. Hell, just think about some of the flame wars you've read on this very site. Do you relish the thought of those people walking around carrying concealed weapons?

People routinely have fistfights over parking spaces, the umpiring at their kid's Little League game, whether Roethlisberger scored in the Super Bowl, and fender benders. Right, let's put them in those same situations, but armed.

If there was a "reasonable person" screening test, that would be great, but there isn't. Many people shouldn't be licensed to drive cars. Many clearly aren't quailifed to be parents. Many can't properly fill out an employment application. But let's give them guns?

I've never purchased a weapon so if there's some enlightenment one of you gun enthusiasts can offer about the process that addresses this, please do.

Yeah, but will the guy carrying concealed have multiple magazines and a backpack full of ammo? I'd rather a guy with maybe two clips go off the deep end, than a guy with over 200 rounds on him etc.

This dude got to much press. The next Psycho now knows what to do so they get as much attention from the Media and will be trying to beat the number of kills this idiot had.

Just because students are allowed to carry concealed weapons, doesn't mean they all would. I'd bet that the vast majority wouldn't.

I think the point that the pro-CCW (concealed carry weapon) people (including myself)are making, is that all it would have taken would be one trained, proficient CCW carrying student to end it all.

And to add what Showtime said, it's not like the consequences would change either. Gun carriers know that if they heartlessly kill someone, their life is over too. Well, first their life is with Bubba and then it's over.

Anybody SHOULD know that, but it doesn't stop them. People do rash things in the heat of the moment.

Well, no one is saying that it will eliminate senseless murders altogether. I'm sure there will be some of that. As the evidence that people have already posted, it will lower it which is obviously a good thing and all we can hope for. Hell, for all we know is that it might make people be more nicer to others (in the examples you posted) knowing that there's a chance the other dude is packing (even if you are too).

BTW, "internet tough guy" is a whole different animal. There is no solution to that growing epidemic yet.

An example of someone not interested in being a victim.....

Picked the wrong clerk to stick-up.

Interesting reading.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html#

29,569 people in the US were killed in 2004 by firearms (Including Suicides). Which boils down to about 81 people per day. Don't hear much about those folks all over the TV for weeks on end.

So your hero is a guy who initiates a gunfight with a woman and her child in the line of fire?

If the woman and child weren't there, I'd be cheering along with you, but with them that could too easily have unnecessarily turned out as a tragedy. Best case there would be give the s***head the money and he leaves. Use your concealed weapon as a last resort. That's my opinion, let's hear some others please.

Very interesting. Same thing with car accidents. Tens of thousands die every year but people go bananas when 100 people die in the only commercial plane crash of the year. It's amusing; people who are obese, smoke like chimneys and never wear a seatbelt but they're not gettin' on no airplane, that ain't safe. :rolleyes:

I never said he was my hero, and I'm also a little taken back by the fact that the woman was there with her baby. However, not all of those situations end with the "s***head" taking the money and going about his merry way. In a lot of cases, they shoot regardless. Did you read the news article, where it said the robber already had his gun drawn? So do you give him the money, and hope he doesn't shoot you and everyone else in the room, or do you act?

Shoot the woman and her kid.

It'll distract the gunman, giving you time to drop him.

Hmmm...you didn't say he was your hero in so many words but that was the impression left by your post.

I didn't see the article but have read it now. You're right in that we don't know how it would have ended otherwise, and any of us who weren't there are bitching from the cheap seats, including me.

Let's say the robber had pulled off several previous jobs and had shot the victims. Then this guy's actions look very good, even with the woman and child there. If the clerk actually knew that information, say through media reports, any reasonable person would see his actions as justified even with the woman and child present.

I think he made a mistake to come out shooting with the woman and child there, but all's well that ends well, and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing myself in that situation.

There's just no clear-cut solution.

I thought it was a joke that time I posted a pic of the devil and said it was you.

Just so you are aware I am serious and not at all making a silly comment . . .

Actually No... It really wasn't interesting reading. It was just the NY Slimes pushing an agenda.

If the NY Slimes was really concerned about people needlessly dying, looking at guns and gun deaths would be lower on their list of priorities.

In this country alone between 90,000 and 190,000 people die needlessly every year because of medical mistakes. These are all types of mistakes. Everything from emergency room screw ups to being prescribed the wrong medication by a doctor not paying attention to their job.

Medical mistakes are one of the biggest killers in this country. We have thousands of people dying every week who should not die. Where is the outrage? What is anyone proposing we do about that dire situation? I don't see the media interested in making a big deal out of the situation either. Where is the NY Slimes regarding the issue?

Every year around 40,000 people die in motor vehicle accidents. Some years even more. What do you propose we do about that situation? Is anyone calling for a ban on motor vehicles?

Let's also not forget, motor vehicles are also sometimes used as instruments of mass murder. In the recent past we have had some Muslims come down with "sudden jihad syndrome" and decided to use their vehicles to kill infidels for Allah. Graham mentioned the incident at the University of North Carolina and last summer some jihadi went nuts with his vehicle in San Francisco.

Almost any nut could use their vehicle as an instrument of mass murder. It does happen and it is certainly not what can be considered a rare occurrence. There are a lot of bus stops and college courtyards in this country. Some nutcase is going to be doing it again.

I think many people also need to be reminded that the largest school mass murder in the US didn't even involve a gun. It happened in Bath, Michigan in 1927. A member of the local school board who was a complete nutcase planted explosives in a school building. Not only did he blow up the school and kill and maim scores of children, he loaded his vehicle with explosives and lots of metal shrapnel. After the school building explosion he arrived at the scene and detonated his explosive and shrapnel packed vehicle killing himself and at least one other person and wounding many more others.

It is almost impossible to protect society from every crazed, resourceful lunatic bent on murder.

The situation is even worse in recent years because as I previously mentioned, the most crazed and deranged people among us now have all kinds of rights afforded to them by our own government.

Government alone is responsible for more complete lunatics lurking freely in today's society and among our midst. Where is the NY Slimes and the media's outrage regarding that fact?

Another thing that needs far more attention....

Almost all of these shooting mass murders are committed by people on some type of psychotropic medication. We have become a society over-reliant on therapy and medication for all types of psychological problems.

Where is the outrage against the psychological industry?

We have a large percentage of children in this country already on psychotropic drugs like Ritalin. Many of them at the initial request of educators who have no business making these recommendations. Many previous mass murder shooters have been linked to the drug Ritalin that is all too often prescribed for too many children in our society today.

Going by the numbers, the future looks extremely bleak as far as school and workplace mass murderers are concerned. We are creating a steady supply of future psychotropic lunatics.

Where is the media outrage on this matter?

Maybe a lot of these media people themselves are hopped up on anti-depressants and other psychotropic drugs.

I hope you're kidding, 'cause it's either that or you're out of your mind. The legal implications for the clerk are enough not to mention the moral ones. Good God.

And well, well, well...seems the CCW students maybe didn't have as much to do with one of the incidents cited earlier in this thread as some claimed.

"Blacksburg, Va. —- Ted Besen bristles when politicians suggest that armed classmates could have stopped Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho.

Five years ago, while a student at the Appalachian School of Law in southwestern Virginia, he tackled and subdued a mentally unstable student named Peter Odighizuwa who had fatally shot the dean, a professor and another student.

In the days that followed, many applauded two other students who followed Besen with guns in hand.

"Their guns had no effect on Peter," Besen said Tuesday. "I already had Peter on the ground before they got out their guns."

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" Sunday that armed students have successfully stopped killers in the classroom. Gingrich spokesman Rick Tyler said the Republican was referring to the shootings at Appalachian.

Besen, a former Marine and police officer, said Gingrich is flat wrong: "The facts were so distorted."

After Odighizuwa finished shooting, he walked onto a lawn, put his gun down and started yelling at students as they fled, Besen said. It was then, Besen said, that he charged Odighizuwa, knocking him to the ground."

Full story

Link doesn't work for me unless I fill out crap, but it sounds like thankfully the dude put his gun down or I doubt Besen would have been able to do what he did.

Hmmmm . . . .

So can you post the Devil-GrayHam pic again? I couldn't find it.

Why are we still talking about this.