Anyone seen the movie?. It is being released on DVD Today, Saw it last night and was suprised. Well Worth Watching

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I haven't seen the movie, but I am intrigued. I read John Krakauer's book "Under The Banner Of Heaven" a few years ago, and it gives some detail to the story. That was the first place I'd heard of that incident. But it is real, and the head of the Mormon Church ordered it. Man, I could really go off on Mormonism. I've studied it quite a lot, even talked to 3rd and 4th generation Mormons at length. This is crazy, crazy stuff. Brigham Young had a hitman as a right-hand man. This guy (can't remember his name) was at the center of this massacre. Insane.

I never knew John Krakauer wrote about it. have almost all his books and love the way he writes. I met Krakauer at a book signing for "Into Thin Air" back in 98.


I had to grab the movie when I read the story line, draws a good parallel to todays terrorism in terms of the fanatic madness.

That's a bit of a ridiculous conclusion. There is no comparison.

While I don't know if the Mormons back then were fanatical, the reasons they had to keep moving further West was because other people threatened them and their lives. There were people back then that hated Mormons and Mormons were killed.

The US government at the time was also very anti-Mormon.

The ones that wound up in Utah got word that people were coming to kill them.

You can't base history on what you see in a movie.

Yeah I have all of his books. Just finished Eiger Dreams a couple weeks ago. "Under The Banner Of Heaven" is totally unlike all of his other books. It's not about mountaineering at all. It's a documentary about a couple of Mormon Fundamentalists in the 80's who "heard God" tell them they had to murder one of their wives and kid. So they did, and then went on the run. To help the reader understand the mentality that led these men to do this, Krakauer goes into great detail about the founding of the religion from day one, and its travels across the nation. There's a whole section on the Massacre. It's not exhaustive, and some have panned its accounting of that particular event as being too brief. But I thought the book was absolutely fascinating. You should check Amazon.com to see if you can pick up a used copy for a couple bucks. Well worth it.

You Can Base history on what you see in a movie!. what you can not do is comment on a movie you have not seen.

I have read several articles around this event and they all are very close to what this movie depicts. Slaughter of 140 Man Women and Children FOR NO REASON other than they were considered sinners and Pagans. Oh and they were form Arkansas and considered enemies. The Crime was mainly led by one person, a self proclaimed Mormon Bishop and General who the President of the United States was looking to replace a territory leader due to his Fanatic Religious way of dealing with things.

Nigel, I am not here to start another flame war about religion. I watched a movie that was based on actual events, and thought it interesting enough that I read up on the subject. I do believe that the crime was terrorism in it's own time based on Religion....

Awesome, I will check it out tomorrow...thanks alot !

No. You can't base history on what you see in a movie. Well, maybe you can, but most people understand that movies are entertainment and incorporate dramatic license.

I'm not defending the Mormons. I'm defending the truth or what little truth about the incident actually exists. The truth is that no one really knows the exact true story and the motivation of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. We just know the results. Neither you nor the people who made that movie know the "actual events" as you claim.

It was a massacre, but what we can't say is that it was Mormon terrorism. A bloody massacre, yes. Brutal, yes. But saying it was terrorism is pretty much an attempt by modern people to softly excuse current terrorism.

If it was terrorism, what possible political goals or coercion could they have achieved by a mass murder of innocent people passing through on their way West? It seems born more out of extreme paranoia. Maybe even mental illness on the part of the leader. If they had massacred a garrison of US soldiers in cold blood while unprovoked, maybe that could have been considered Mormon terrorism. There would have been a clear political motivation. If the Mormons knew those people were innocents on their way to the West, there would have been no political gain or coercive angle to call it terrorism.

If that is your criteria for terrorism then an awful lot of Indian tribes who killed white people moving West were also terrorists.

Terrorism implies a coercive agenda or political motivation.

It's a stretch to call Mountain Meadows an act of terrorism when so little is known about the incident. It was definitely mass murder, but without knowing the exact reason and motivation, everything is speculation.

The entire incident was completely out of character for Mormon behavior. Typically it was the Mormons at the time who were persecuted and the hunted.

PBS did a pretty good documentary on the Mormons and you can see it at the link below. It included the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/

By the way... Who the hell is Nigel?

The timing of the release seems a bit fishy. With Romney being a Mormon, and a front runner, this would seem to be designed to stir up some more anti Mormon feelings.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I have no intention of voting for Romney in the primary.

It seems pretty brutal on its face however, if the PBS account is accurate.

Yeah, the PBS documentary was somewhat harsh on the Mormons. But then again, has there ever been a PBS documentary in recent years on any religion that incorporates Christ into it's faith that wasn't harsh?

The Mormons would never be afforded the public relations coup that Islam and Mohammed received on PBS in the weeks following 9-11. To watch that, you never think a drop of blood was ever shed in the name of Islam.

But anyway..... It's good to see you on the board MBFlyerfan. I hope all is well with you and your family.

Not to defend the killing of the people in this incident but...at the time of thie massacre the U.S. government had serious discussions regarding sending the army in to Utah to inforce a number of federal laws (taxes, etc.) and most Mormons were under the belief at that time that they would be attacked and rounded up and forced to live under s different set of laws than what they did at that time...Not a far fetched assumption on their part given how they were harrassed and attacked (sometimes of their own fault, sometimes not...) in a number of different places in the Eastern U.S. and the assasination of their founder Joseph Smith....All this WAS included in the "Under the Banner of Heaven" book by Krakaur...but I guess some of us have decided to gloss over his very balanced coverage to focus on what our given prejudices would like to highlight...

Overall, "Under the Banner of Heaven" presents an EXCELLENT primer on the Moromon religon, presenting both its good and bad sides (which ALL religions have) and saves its heaviest criticism for those who have perverted the tenets of Mormonism for their own purposes...

You announced to everyone is a previous thread that your Name was Nigel, I guess that was not true?

Religion vs politics when we talk about "modern Day " terrorism....which is dominant?. I would say Jihadding for Allah wins.

SO you say that the 15 minutes of love scenes in the movie was not part of the fact??. "Nigel", I am not born yesterday..

Of course my name isn't Nigel. I said that once as a goof and forgot about it. I guess I assumed you would have known it was a joke.

When I was growing up, a kid in NY couldn't survive to the 5th grade with a name like Nigel?

Madman, I think the truest mark of the flavor and intent of this event is not found in the event itself, but what happened afterwards. After all was said and done, relatives and loved ones of those who were murdered went to that spot and erected a monument to honor their families. Brigham Young then ordered his men to go and tear it down. That is pure spite and hatred. And yes, I believe it is also an evidence of his mania. He was a nut job, as was Joseph Smith.

As to the timing of the release of this film... truth hurts. It's not like people are drudging up dirt in Romney's life. They're just showing the truth of what the founding fathers of the Mormon cult believed. That's it. Truth is truth, regardless of when it's realized.

Well that would explain.....nevermind


You will always be known as Nigel to me

I'm not interested in arguing whether Brigham Young or Joseph Smith were nuts. I don't know if they were or not. Maybe they were nuts. I'm not the guy to answer that question.

I do know that a lot of evangelicals or born again Christians don't like Mormons. Do you belong to one or the other?

I'm not asking as a form of judgment or anything, but I do know that there is a lot of anti-Mormon bias among those groups.

I've only known about two Mormons in my life so I don't really have an opinion of them. The ones I have known were very nice people who would do anything for anyone.

But.... I am also curious of the fact that the media never or rarely ever discussed Mormonism in the past. I don't recall movies ever being made about Mormons or anything about their past.

It seems odd that when a Mormon Republican decides to run for president, all of a sudden the public is inundated with Mormon related media projects.

We have had a Mormon as Senate Majority Leader for years. Nothing about Mormons was created by media outlets when he ascended to his position. But then again, he is a Democrat.

A recent presidential candidate, Senator Chris Dodd, has a Mormon wife. The media never mentioned that fact in any discussions during his campaign.

Why is it when a Republican who is a Mormon comes to the public attention, all of sudden there is now a need to discuss everything bad about the Mormons and their past.

It's more than just a mere coincidence.

Thanks.



"I look forward to your next syllable with great eagerness"

Oh I think you're right. It's more than just coincidence. The timing is intentional, no doubt. To answer your question about me, yes, I would be what the media would call a "born again Christian" or an "evangelical". Do I hate Mormons? Not at all. Super-duper nice people. Just like I don't hate Muslims. I do, however, unapologetically and passionately disagree with the hateful doctrine of Islam. It is a warfare-based, hate-fueled religion. It is what its founders intended it to be. Ever looked deeper into Rastafarianism? It's not in any way the "peace, love and ganja" crap that Bob Marley sang about. Three of the central tenets of Rasta are essentially "hate whitey" "take from whitey" and "kill whitey if you have the chance". Mormonism, is preached and even acted out as a peaceful religion. But study its founding doctrine, and you will quickly see a hateful, paranoid, racist religion. Like I said, truth is truth no matter when it's revealed.

Well, I've had more contact with Rasta's here in NY and most of it wasn't exactly pleasant. It was in a former professional manner.

I'm not saying that it is bad to look at Mormonism when a guy tries to gain political power here in this country. I'm just wondering why powerful Democrats can be Mormons and no one mentions it. When a Republican sticks his head up, it becomes an issue.

With Romney, everyone seems to focus on his religion. Maybe we should be doing that. What I don't understand is the fact that with the Democrats, especially Obama, it is almost like a sin or a crime to question his religious background.

That probably has to do with the fact that 1) he's openly admitted he's a practicing Muslim from the word "go," and 2) the media pretty much thinks he's the Second Coming, and he can do no wrong in their eyes. The guy's a consummate politician.

I wasn't around back then, but from what I've read and seen on documentaries, there was a significant ruckus when JFK was running because he was the first non-protestant. He turned out to be pretty good... as long as you discount the whole adultery thing... :rolleyes:

Hey you would Poke Norma too

No, I'd keep my pants zipped and do my freaking job, and then go home to my hot wife (Jackie was a hottie).

I'm not a big Romney fan. I don't know what to make of him.

However, I was never under the impression that the media likes him all that much.

Now, Huckabee... the media seems to be making a concerted effort at pushing him on the Republican electorate. That's probably because they know the Democrats can beat him in November.

I meant my last comments to be regarding Barack, not Mitt. Sorry about the confusion.

Honestly, I think every single one of the Republicans in this election are all "also-rans". I don't think a single one of them can overcome the Billary / Obama machines, and Ron Paul is just enough of a factor to work to take votes away from the only potential Republican candidates. Add to that a general national disgust with the current administration and a deep desire because of that disgust to try anything other than a conservative Republican. The Dems have it in the bag. God help us.

***Not defending JFK or his actions***

But, what the fuck does his fidelity have to do with him doing his job?