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#606408 - 10/05/07 10:55 AM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oops, I sure did forget working dogs. These just might be the most dangerous since they pretend to be helpful just to gain access to helpless victims. How sinister. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[QUOTE]I think you may have missed the CDC report that claims pit bull type dogs are responsible for a third of all human deaths caused by dog attacks.
Do you mean this report:

"A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 12 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill." (emphasis mine)

To paraphrase Inigo Montoya (from The Princess Bride): "I do not think it means what you think it means." laugh

The only thing that study shows is that the most dangerous 'breed' is 'unrestrained dog' (82% or deaths) which isn't exactly a breed now is it?

I'm not sure what caused these dangerous creatures to suddenly appear in the last 50 years or so. Maybe it was the A-bomb. Can you imagine what would've happened had our ancestors been faced with cohabitating with canines for, say, the last 20,000 (some say 100,000 ) years or so? [Freak]

With no nobody to ban them, they would've eaten all the babies & early man would've died out.

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#606409 - 10/05/07 10:55 AM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Type in the names of other breeds of dogs into the Google News search and you will find the answer for yourself.
Otay!!!

Here's the first 5 news stories for "German Shepard":

1) Camden Co. Boy Attacked by German Shepard
2) Police looking for dog that bit girl
3) Agression between Dogs
4) Cicero police investigate dog attack
5) Dogs bite five-year old girl to death.

What was your point, again?

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#606410 - 10/05/07 11:08 AM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Auditor_Kevin:

As was stated earlier, the danger isn't in the likelyhood of a dog to bite - [b]it's in the destruction a dog can do while biting.

[/b]
If in fact it's in the destruction a dog can do while biting well then why the hell have you been singling out pits? I don't think anyone disagrees that a pit can really damage another animal with their bite, but to not mention the sheppard’s, akitas, great danes, rottis, etc... makes me question your statement above. Do you not believe the dogs I mentioned are capable of a maiming bite? News flash, slick. They are and they do.

So,help me understand what the real point of your gripe is. Is it about the
Quote:
Originally posted by Auditor_Kevin:
"dog breed that was originally bred for fighting."
or is it
Quote:
"in the destruction a dog can do while biting."
???????

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#606411 - 10/05/07 11:20 AM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by pluvo:

Oops, I sure did forget working dogs. These just might be the most dangerous since they pretend to be helpful just to gain access to helpless victims. How sinister.
You are avoiding the question.

Why aren't pit bull type dogs used as working dogs? If these dogs are as great as you seem to be claiming, surely they would be worthy of joining the ranks of other breeds that are chosen as working dogs.


Quote:
I'm not sure what caused these dangerous creatures to suddenly appear in the last 50 years or so. Maybe it was the A-bomb. Can you imagine what would've happened had our ancestors been faced with cohabitating with canines for, say, the last 20,000 (some say 100,000 ) years or so? [Freak]

With no nobody to ban them, they would've eaten all the babies & early man would've died out.
You are getting very ridiculous and not even taking the subject seriously.

Regarding breeds of dogs, it is my understanding that most breeds of dogs have been created by man within the last 100-150 years.

The pit bull types of dogs were bred for a specific purpose.

It may seem to you that I am taking sides in this debate. I am merely pointing out that the argument that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners, is not a very strong argument and doesn't really hold up too well in light of statistics.

The argument that pit bulls just get a bad rap because of some ingrained bias on the part of the public doesn't hold water.

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#606412 - 10/05/07 11:23 AM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

What was your point, again?
The point was more than obvious.

Nothing even comes close to the sheer volume of articles and data regarding pit bulls and attacks by pit bulls.

You can go 30 pages into the Google News search on pit bulls and still not even cover the last month alone.

That doesn't tell you something about these types of dogs?

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#606413 - 10/05/07 11:55 AM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Why aren't pit bull type dogs used as working dogs? If these dogs are as great as you seem to be claiming, surely they would be worthy of joining the ranks of other breeds that are chosen as working dogs.
Because they're TERRIERS... I don't see a whole lot of other Terrier breeds doing a whole lot of working, either. A Cairne, Scottish, etc. terrier wouldn't exactly be a good hunting dog, herding dog, or other WORKING dog, either... Doesn't make them less "great".

Or do you believe a dog has to be a working breed in order to have a use? My pug has absolutely no "working" function whatsoever. My two Great Danes are technically "working dogs," but I can't get them to get their lazy asses off their futon for anything other than food...

Best I can tell is, your "point" is that you have an opinion that isn't backed up by actual facts. And that's fine; everyone can have their own opinion. Right up until you try to claim your opinion IS based on facts, in which case you just come across as extremely misinformed. It's like a racist that tries to say a black man can't be a quarterback, 'cause his brain is smaller, even after all the research, literature, etc. PROVES that opinion is a crock of shiite.

Your opinion is not based on facts. Again, that's perfectly ok. Most opinions aren't fact-based...that's why they're OPINIONS...

At the end of the day, anybody can make a fighting dog out of ANY breed of dog, and anybody can make a fun-loving, family oriented dog out of ANY breed of dog. It's the owner, not the dog.

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#606414 - 10/05/07 11:55 AM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
LOL. I just ran a Google news search on "Golden Retriever" and got nothing but hearwarming and entertaining stories for the first two pages, so I moved it up to "Golden Retriever attack".

The first hit on that search? A story about a pit bull crashing through the screen door of someone's house and ripping some poor guy's lab to shreds (and this happened in the county that I live in!). Here's the link (by the way, this happened Tuesday night!!)

Yet Another Pit Bull Attack

One of the people on the county's task force to come up with viscious dog legislation owns a 1 year old Golden. That's why the article hit.

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#606415 - 10/05/07 12:00 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

[b]What was your point, again?
The point was more than obvious.

Nothing even comes close to the sheer volume of articles and data regarding pit bulls and attacks by pit bulls.

You can go 30 pages into the Google News search on pit bulls and still not even cover the last month alone.

That doesn't tell you something about these types of dogs?[/b]
It's only that many stories, because sensationalism sells newspapers, and the majority of Americans are stupid. (There, I said it; the "average" American is just that; average. Which ain't all that bright....)

There are so many different breeds of terriers, and only 1 is technically the American Pit Bull. But anytime any dog attacks, if he happens to have short hair, weigh between 30 and 50 lbs, and have a bull-nosed head side profile, it'll be called a "pit bull" or a "part pit-bull" regardless of whether or not it even has any Pit Bull blood in it. But the "average" American has no earthly idea as to what a Pit Bull even is, let alone be able to know the difference between a Pit and, say, the Stadfordshire Terrier. They aren't the same (as I've learned in the past few years), but when it comes to a police report, they'll be considered the same regardless.

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#606416 - 10/05/07 12:11 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

It's only that many stories, because sensationalism sells newspapers, and the majority of Americans are stupid. (There, I said it; the "average" American is just that; average. Which ain't all that bright....)

There are so many different breeds of terriers, and only 1 is technically the American Pit Bull. But anytime any dog attacks, if he happens to have short hair, weigh between 30 and 50 lbs, and have a bull-nosed head side profile, it'll be called a "pit bull" or a "part pit-bull" regardless of whether or not it even has any Pit Bull blood in it. But the "average" American has no earthly idea as to what a Pit Bull even is, let alone be able to know the difference between a Pit and, say, the Stadfordshire Terrier. They aren't the same (as I've learned in the past few years), but when it comes to a police report, they'll be considered the same regardless.
So that is your answer.... American's are stupid?

The dogs are wonderful. It is Americans that are the problem. eek

You didn't notice that some of the articles describing attacks by pit bull type dogs were from other countries like Australia, Canada and England too?

The UK regulates pit bull ownership. I think parts of Canada also regulates or bans ownership of these dogs. Is that also the fault of these "stupid Americans"?

The only fault I find with some Americans regarding dogs is that many have a tendency to "humanize" them to a certain degree.

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#606417 - 10/05/07 12:16 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Upon further review of "Golden Retriever Attack" - the majority of stories revolve around Goldens getting attacked and ripped to shreds by......you guessed it - pit bulls.

The amount of "coincidences" here are astronomical. [Freak]

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#606418 - 10/05/07 12:16 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Auditor_Kevin:
LOL. I just ran a Google news search on "Golden Retriever" and got nothing but hearwarming and entertaining stories for the first two pages, so I moved it up to "Golden Retriever attack".

The first hit on that search? A story about a pit bull crashing through the screen door of someone's house and ripping some poor guy's lab to shreds (and this happened in the county that I live in!). Here's the link (by the way, this happened Tuesday night!!)

Yet Another Pit Bull Attack

One of the people on the county's task force to come up with viscious dog legislation owns a 1 year old Golden. That's why the article hit.
The second hit on Goolge for " Golden Retriever Attack " wink

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#606419 - 10/05/07 12:17 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


No, I'm saying an awful lot of attacks are made by dogs that are not actually Pit Bulls. Or when a dog is a complete mixed breed that happens to have a similiar profile as a Pit, and all the sudden it's a "Pit Bull mixed breed," instead of the mutt that it really is.

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#606420 - 10/05/07 12:29 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

No, I'm saying an awful lot of attacks are made by dogs that are not actually Pit Bulls. Or when a dog is a complete mixed breed that happens to have a similiar profile as a Pit, and all the sudden it's a "Pit Bull mixed breed," instead of the mutt that it really is.
I agree that most dogs are mutts or mixed breed.

I also agree that the term 'pit bull' probably does cover a few varieties of dogs within the general vernacular.

However, I think most dogs pegged as pit bulls all probably have some pit bull in them or are mixed versions of mutts all within the Molosser family of dog breeds. That makes them almost the same as genuine pit bulls with the same traits.

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#606421 - 10/05/07 12:30 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by switch540:
[QB}The second hit on Goolge for " Golden Retriever Attack " wink [/QB]
You do realize that you're linking to a pro-pit bull propoganda website, right?

See - that's why it's so tough to get the obviously needed legislation passed. The silent majority isn't out there creating goofy ass 9/11 conspiracy-esque websites to defend their point of view.

If you want anyone here to actually put stock in a link, try NOT using a we-didn't-land-on-the-moon single purpose driven website.

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#606422 - 10/05/07 12:36 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Adding to that - I'd EXPECT nothing but stories about Golden Retriever attacks on people and property if I search on "Golden Retriever attack".

So why is it that over half the stories deal with other breeds (mainly pit bull) wreaking havoc??

Geezus, the first story on there is about a pit bull from MY COUNTY busting through a closed door like the Kool Aid Man in order to kill one pet and thrash another.

How much more goddam evidence do you people need??

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#606423 - 10/05/07 12:42 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
I also noticed the Google News search for "Golden Retriever attack" yielded only 105 hits.

Many of them referred to pit bull attacks on Golden Retrievers or owners of Golden Retrievers.

Here was an interesting one from Austin, TX:

http://www.kvue.com/news/local/stories/050207kvuedogs-bkm.2f2df250.html

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#606424 - 10/05/07 12:50 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Auditor_Kevin:
If you want anyone here to actually put stock in a link, try NOT using a we-didn't-land-on-the-moon single purpose driven website.
Agreed. That was a piss poor example on my part.

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#606425 - 10/05/07 12:59 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:


Here was an interesting one from Austin, TX:

http://www.kvue.com/news/local/stories/050207kvuedogs-bkm.2f2df250.html
I read that one, too. Here are a couple quotes from the article:

Quote:
The number of reported dog bites increased by nearly 40% last year in Austin. According to Austin Animal Control, the number one culprit is pit bulls.
and

Quote:
According to statistics from Austin Animal Protection and Control, there were 754 dog bites reported last year, as opposed to 513 in 2004. At the top of the list, by almost a 2-1 margin are pit bulls (251 cases), followed by Labradors (127) and German Shepherd’s (67).
As I said earlier, my concern isn't so much when a dog leads in bites, since a small dog can lead that category and it's not going to do major damage. But when a dog with brute strength like a pit bull ALSO leads in the category of most bites - that's a double whammy that needs to be dealt with ASAP before more people die.

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#606426 - 10/05/07 01:01 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


NY: if you would feel better about it, try this google search:

Golden+Retriever+bite

With a sample from a Golden Retriever rescue

Quote:
And lastly, we get the dogs that may not make it. Dogs that were so poorly bred, socialized or handled as puppies that they may or may not be able to adjust to living a normal life. Ragtag Golden Retriever Rescue has a zero-bite policy. One bite, you're out. So while we may accept a dog into the program who has a bite on its record, that dog will never be re-homed into the community.
Oh my... A rescue society that deals specifically with Golden Retrievers acknowledges that there are some retrievers that bite...

And here's a VERY good read from the "Dog Whisperer" website:

To Bite or Not to Bite - C.W. Meisterfeld, Ph. D.

And a quick quote:

Quote:
Dog attacks are increasing in every country throughout the world and can no longer be blamed on Pit Bulls, Bull Terriers, Rottweilers, Staffordshire Terriers, Akitas, Doberman Pinschers or any fighting breeds, due to the fact that even Golden Retrievers, New Foundlands, and Labrador Retrievers have not only become vicious, but have caused fatalities. See Dr. Golab in Facts & Figures: Fatalaties Due to Dog Attacks.

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#606427 - 10/05/07 01:05 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Auditor_Kevin:

I read that one, too.
What made it interesting was the article started out giving statistics about pit bulls.

Then it took a bizarre twist with quotes from the over the top pit bull dog lovers. This one was the most bizarre...

Quote:
“To paint them all with one brush … I mean, it’s racist,” said Dr. Hardesty.
To think that idiot is a doctor. eek

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#606428 - 10/05/07 01:09 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
NY: if you would feel better about it, try this google search:

Golden+Retriever+bite
We are searching for news articles. Not pro-pit bull or pro-dog web sites.

Do a Google News search for those same words "Golden Retriever bite" and it yields only 104 hits. Some of which are duplicate stories and a few are about pit bulls.

Link...

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#606429 - 10/05/07 01:42 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Anonymous
Unregistered


NBC news item

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say a retreiver bites as often as a Pit. What I'm saying is, a dog biting/attacking has virtually nothing to do with what breed it is, but rather has everything to do with how its raised. It's a learned behavior, NOT a genetic one.

What's strange is, it seems the media goes through different phases on what breed of dog to blame things one. When I was a little kid, it was the Doberman Pinscher that was the spurn of the earth. Then for a while it was the Rotties. And nowadays, it's the Pit.

I just wish they'd focus more on the dead-beat owners that raise their dog wrong, and are the root of the problem in the first place.

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#606430 - 10/05/07 01:55 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

What's strange is, it seems the media goes through different phases on what breed of dog to blame things one. When I was a little kid, it was the Doberman Pinscher that was the spurn of the earth. Then for a while it was the Rotties. And nowadays, it's the Pit.
Maybe that's just reflective of whatever the "popular" strong breed is at the time. The more people own a breed, the more attacks there'll be. *Anecdote Alert* Seems to me that Dobermans were way more popular 20 years ago than they are now.

I'm sure Jack Russell Terrier bites are up 1000% over what they were 10 years ago, too. A punctured thumb isn't likely to make the news though.

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#606431 - 10/05/07 02:02 PM Re: Pit Bulls
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say a retreiver bites as often as a Pit. What I'm saying is, a dog biting/attacking has virtually nothing to do with what breed it is, but rather has everything to do with how its raised. It's a learned behavior, NOT a genetic one.
There is only partial truth to what you have just said.

With dogs like Pit Bulls and Rotts ... maybe even Dobermans, you have to work harder to keep them behaved and disciplined. More so than other breeds such as say ... Collies.

The statistics and numbers don't align with the 'it's always the owner's fault' line of thinking.

Pit Bull type dogs aren't even the most populous dogs in the country, yet they rack up the largest numbers of deaths of humans and attacks.

That negates the argument that it is always the owner's fault.

Are you trying to say that bad and lazy people tend to gravitate toward owning Pit Bull type dogs and Rotts?

I would tend to doubt that.

The web site Wikipedia is loaded with a lot of false information, but according to them, the most popular dogs in the US are the following....

* 1. Labrador Retriever
* 2. Yorkshire Terrier
* 3. German Shepherd
* 4. Golden Retriever
* 5. Beagle
* 6. Dachshund
* 7. Boxer
* 8. Poodle
* 9. Shih Tzu
* 10.Miniature Schnauzer

I will try to verify that with another source.

If other breeds of dog have larger populations, why are pit bulls racking up the largest number of incidents and carnage?

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#606432 - 10/05/07 02:05 PM Re: Pit Bulls
Auditor_Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1016
Loc: Dundee, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
What I'm saying is, a dog biting/attacking has virtually nothing to do with what breed it is, but rather has everything to do with how its raised. It's a learned behavior, NOT a genetic one.

What about the story I just linked to? The attack that happened two days ago in a community 20 minutes from my house (I linked to it on the last page)?

I sincerely doubt that the owner trained that pit bull to crash through closed doors and go on killing sprees in other people's homes.

Sounds to me like a clear cut case of a pit doing what a pit was bred to do. Pure genetics at work.

Again - this isn't sensationalizing at all. I'm using an example that happened less than 48 hours ago in my own county of residence.

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