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#607460 - 09/11/07 12:42 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Claus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 4373
If Mine has been sitting in the same place for 14 months collecting old condoms is it still a treadmill?
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#607461 - 09/11/07 12:43 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Chia, come shoot me in the head so I can get out of this fucking thread, will you please?
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#607462 - 09/11/07 12:48 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys have all lost your focus.
The orginal question, as posed on XOC, specified a Conveyer Belt, not a treadmill.
Any discussion of "treadmills" is therefore off topic and all such posts should be deleted out of respect for the original poster.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
How about this.....lets see if this can get to the ALR:

A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).

Will the plane be able to take off?

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#607463 - 09/11/07 12:54 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Quote:
Originally posted by cadams7407:
[b]look up the definition of treadmill. There is a key part to the definition, the object on the belt remains stationary. You got the plane moving a 1/4 mile or more = not stationary, ipso facto, your plane is not on a treadmill.
If I put a fucking Weslo-Cadence ButtFucker 2000 in my home gym and walk in place on it, it's a treadmill.

If my cat jumps on the fucking thing and starts running forward, backwards and throwing up hairballs on it, has it suddenly become a towel-rack?

I get what the definition is. Alternating its use for ten minutes does not turn it into a big bowl of spaghetti or a luscious pair of tits.

It's still a treadmill.[/b]
is earth just a giant treadmill? I mean its rotating, i guess when i'm jogging I'm really on a treadmill?

The cat still remains relatively stationary. The longer you make the walking surface, the more it becomes a walkway. Not a towel rack.

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#607464 - 09/11/07 12:56 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Claus:
If Mine has been sitting in the same place for 14 months collecting old condoms is it still a treadmill?
the condoms are stationary, aren't they [LOL]

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#607465 - 09/11/07 12:59 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by 05_X:
You guys have all lost your focus.
The orginal question, as posed on XOC, specified a Conveyer Belt, not a treadmill.
Any discussion of "treadmills" is therefore off topic and all such posts should be deleted out of respect for the original poster.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
[b]How about this.....lets see if this can get to the ALR:

A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).

Will the plane be able to take off?
[/b]
we're not in that thread, we're in this one, and it says treadmill.

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#607466 - 09/11/07 01:07 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
don't the wings need air resistance to lift the plane?

If you are running on a treadmill holding a hangglider, and you jump forward, will you fly?
no, there is no air resistance....
You are RUNNING down the tread mill by using feet to push off the treadmill. You misconception is here. A jet plane does NOT USE WHEELS to push off the tread mill, thus the speed of the given shitty fuckin' tread mill does not matter. laugh

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#607467 - 09/11/07 01:09 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by AHTOXA:
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
[b]don't the wings need air resistance to lift the plane?

If you are running on a treadmill holding a hangglider, and you jump forward, will you fly?
no, there is no air resistance....
You are RUNNING down the tread mill by using feet to push off the treadmill. You misconception is here. A jet plane does NOT USE WHEELS to push off the tread mill, thus the speed of the given shitty fuckin' tread mill does not matter. laugh [/b]
I wish someone had done this for me:

"Walk away, man. It's not worth it. It's not WORTH it!"
_________________________
Does anybody remember laughter?

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#607468 - 09/11/07 01:14 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok, if the conveyer belt is moving as fast as plane, as stated in the original question.
Where does the air resistance come from to lift the plane?

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#607469 - 09/11/07 01:15 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Alright. Picture this, Chumpman.

You've seen a car on a dyno machine before. So, no matter how fast the car goes, the rollers of the dyno will keep the car in place, because they spin at the same speed as the tires.

Now, imagine a jet plane on a dyno. You put all of it's wheels on the rollers, fire the engines and the rollers would not spin, the plane will propel itself forward going over the rollers because the power does not come through the wheels. Thus, the speed of the treadmill is irrelevant.

What's going to end up happening, is that the wheels of the plane taking off will spin at twice the speed they normally would, given any speed the plane reaches during take off (since the treadmill mathes the speed of the plane, but in the other direction).

Plane lifts off with the wheels spinning twice the speed they normally would, that's all.

A treadmill moving in the opposite direction of the plane, does provide enough force to counteract the thurst of the plane.

If it did apply enough force going in the opposite direction of the plane to stop it from lifting off, then it's logical to think that if it treadmill was standing still, it would provide HALF of that force? According to your logic it is so, however it's not. Think about it.

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#607470 - 09/11/07 01:22 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida

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#607471 - 09/11/07 01:23 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


it isnt asking if the engines power the wheels.
I know that they dont.
Your saying that a plane is on a set of rollers that dont move in the opposite direction...

"This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction)."

If you are saying that the wheels are moving twice as fast, then the conveyer is not matching the planes speed. the plane is going faster.

Doesnt matter what pushes the plane, if it can not get the air resistnace ( due to the Conveyer belt moving AT THE SAME speed in the opposite direction) under the wings It will not take off.

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#607472 - 09/11/07 01:38 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:

"This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction)."

If you are saying that the wheels are moving twice as fast, then the conveyer is not matching the planes speed. the plane is going faster.
No.

The SPEED of the wheels will be the exact same as the aircraft. They're fixed to the plane in the horizontal & vertical axis. However, they're not fixed in the Z axis, which means:

The ROTATIONAL VELOCITY (the only thing the treadmill can actually effect on the plane) will be faster than the treadmill is moving.

But we don't really give a damn about the ROTATIONAL VELOCITY of the wheels, do we? We care about the SPEED of the aircraft. Which, while the treadmill accelerates in the opposite direction as the plane accelerates, they do not have any shared forces whatsoever. The treadmill causes ROTATIONAL VELOCITY/ACCELERATION of the tires, only. The plane causes DIRECTIONAL velocity/acceleration of the tires via the pin that holds them in place (the axle shaft).

There are 3 dimensions of movement, here, and you're not realizing the Plane effects 2 of them (moving forward (x-axis) & upward (y-axis)). The treadmill effects the 3rd (causing rotation of the tires about the Z axis). ANY force about the Z-AXIS does NOT counteract ANY force about the X or Y axis.

You're still confusing rotational veloctiy of the tires as the speed of the plane. It's not. The two are not interchangeable properties.

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#607473 - 09/11/07 01:45 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


No, it DOES match the plane's speed. But despite that the planes still takes off because the rotating speed of the wheels doesn't matter in relationship to the forward thrust provided by the engines. Don't get caught up with the wheels. What if it was a slick surface and the plane was on skis or skates? Would the plane take off? It doesn't even have wheels now.

The only point at which the speed of the conveyor matters at all is if it can create enough speed to in turn create enough drag to counter thrust. That's it. As long as thrust is sufficiently greater than drag, the plane flies. Like I said before at that point it isn't matching the speed of the plane but vastly exceeding it and outside the scope of the question.

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#607474 - 09/11/07 01:51 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
it isnt asking if the engines power the wheels.
I know that they dont.
Your saying that a plane is on a set of rollers that dont move in the opposite direction...

"This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction)."

If you are saying that the wheels are moving twice as fast, then the conveyer is not matching the planes speed. the plane is going faster.

Doesnt matter what pushes the plane, if it can not get the air resistnace ( due to the Conveyer belt moving AT THE SAME speed in the opposite direction) under the wings It will not take off.
Okay. Maybe this will help.

Pretend you're holding a toy plane in your hand. You go "vroom vroom vroom", and make the plane fly all over the Toy Section at WalMart. With me?

Okay. Your hand is the engine. It's the thrust. Remember this.

Now: You walk with mommy over to the exercise equipment section. Oooh! Cool treadmills, mommy!

You see one running. You put your little toy plane on the treadmill. Oooooh! See how the tires spin!?

Now a saleslady comes over, and turns the treadmill up faster (I don't know why -- that's not safe, you crazy bitch, you'll rip a kid's hand off that way) . . . I digress.

So the treadmill is moving faster. Whee! Oh, the plane's wheels are moving faster too!

Now, you move the plane forward with your hand (thrust). Notice that the plane's wheels are still spinning?! Oooh! The plane is going, like, 500 mph, so fast! And the treadmill is spinning 500 mph in the opposite direction! So fast, mommy! And yet, you are able to easily move the plane forward for takeoff . . .

The treadmill/conveyor belt/rollers/towel rack/bowl of spaghetti/luscious tits/used condom storage rack has NO EFFECT on the plane itself.

Any of that getting through?
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Does anybody remember laughter?

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#607475 - 09/11/07 01:51 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


The plane will not move forward on a conveyer belt moving the same speed in the opposite direction, wether it is on wheels, or just sliding on its belly.
If the plane does not move forward, it does not take off. If it moves forward on the Conveyer belt, it is going faster than the conveyer belt.

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#607476 - 09/11/07 01:52 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
The plane will not move forward on a conveyer belt moving the same speed in the opposite direction, wether it is on wheels, or just sliding on its belly.
If the plane does not move forward, it does not take off.
[Freak]

He's gotta be fucking with us. Gotta.

I mean, right?
_________________________
Does anybody remember laughter?

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#607477 - 09/11/07 01:53 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe some people forgot to release the hand brake.
This thread is killing me. [Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]

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#607478 - 09/11/07 01:55 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


If it moves forward on the Conveyer belt, it is going faster than the conveyer belt...

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#607479 - 09/11/07 01:56 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Since today is Friday, that fact is irrelevant.

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#607480 - 09/11/07 01:58 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by chumpmann:
If it moves forward on the Conveyer belt, it is going faster than the conveyer belt...
No, sweetie, it isn't.

The WHEELS might be moving faster than the belt.

Cessnas lift off at an airspeed around 80 mph, IIRC.

Crank that conveyor belt sumbitch up to 300 mph if you like, the plane will still accelerate to 80 mph and liftoff . . .

.................................
TANGENT:
Do they take off at 80 mph? Or is that the recommended landing speed? Now I can't remember . . .
_________________________
Does anybody remember laughter?

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#607481 - 09/11/07 02:00 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lets remove the treadmill for a second and set the plane on some saw horses (figuratively speaking the wheels are off the ground) Now make the wheels spin a million miles an hour can the plane take off?? No because there is no fucking wind over the wings.

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#607482 - 09/11/07 02:01 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida


.
.
.
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#607483 - 09/11/07 02:03 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by RiverPig:
Lets remove the treadmill for a second and set the plane on some saw horses (figuratively speaking the wheels are off the ground) Now make the wheels spin a million miles an hour can the plane take off?? No because there is no fucking wind over the wings.
What happens if the wheels are spinning in the opposite directions in this case?

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#607484 - 09/11/07 02:03 PM Re: Airplane on a treadmill question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
If you are saying that the wheels are moving twice as fast, then the conveyer is not matching the planes speed. the plane is going faster.
no no, thats actually right. the plane will move faster. thats the only way it can travel down this long not-a-treadmill.

lets say our plane takes flight, on a runway, at 150 MPH. on runway, ground speed (respective to the runway) = air speed.

On the treadmill, if the plane takes off, its air speed = 150. However, the ground speed is 300 (relative to the tread belt).

You have the plane AND the treadmill both spinning the wheels. Their point is, wheel speed has no effect on the rate of travel.

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