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#616255 - 23/05/08 10:09 AM Re: The Real McCain
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
This and WWII - apples and oranges.
And yet conservatives have NO problem pulling out the D-Day argument when talking about troops killed.

Go figure. :rolleyes:
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#616256 - 23/05/08 12:30 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:
[b]This and WWII - apples and oranges.
And yet conservatives have NO problem pulling out the D-Day argument when talking about troops killed.

Go figure. :rolleyes: [/b]
Tactically speaking, Apples and oranges. Troup levels again, apples and oranges, but numbers killed on both sides still relevant if we are going to obsess on the numbers and report every death as a national tradgedy to stime the cause or reason why they died. Not for oil as you believe but to remove the oppression and evil that controlled that country, that every Democrat was (before Bush) for getting rid of.

Every "Troop" as you put it, is held to the highest regard for thier and thier families sacrifice. War isn't pretty, nor should it be. It takes boots on the ground to secure your position, not Cruise missles at the touch of a button from thousands of miles away.

What a pitiful argument.

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#616257 - 23/05/08 12:48 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Remembering Memorial Day...

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

--Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD

-------------------

It was a time of great exulting and excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest depths of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast doubt upon its righteousness straight way got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams – visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! – then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation:

"God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory – An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor – and also you in your hearts – fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them – in spirit – we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with hurricanes of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

[After a pause.] "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

-- Mark Twain

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#616258 - 23/05/08 01:10 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's as deep as it gets Steve. Thanks, Adam frown

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#616259 - 23/05/08 01:41 PM Re: The Real McCain
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Conundrum:
Not for oil as you believe but to remove the oppression and evil that controlled that country, that every Democrat was (before Bush) for getting rid of.
Well, you are wrong on two counts here.

1. I don't believe it was for oil.

2. Every Democrat that was for getting rid of him did NOT share Bush's view. The legislation said that force was a LAST resort. Just because they said he could use it as a LAST RESORT doesn't mean they agree with him using it when he did.

Quote:
Every "Troop" as you put it, is held to the highest regard for thier and thier families sacrifice.


As they should be.

Quote:
War isn't pretty, nor should it be. It takes boots on the ground to secure your position, not Cruise missles at the touch of a button from thousands of miles away.


Seems to me, those cruise missiles did quite a bit of the job the first time around. Yes, the troups came in...but that lasted what...four days? (And Iraq had actually agreed to a cease fire (that we rejected) two days BEFORE our ground troops went in).

Quote:
What a pitiful argument.
What argument? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of conservatives saying you can't compare WWII, but then will say, "oh...we lost how many on D-Day?" when someone mentions how many have been killed in Iraq.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#616260 - 23/05/08 02:08 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


We won the war in a few weeks. We've been engaged in country building ever since.

There is a big difference between our war with the Germans and Japanese. They had the good sense after they were beaten to lay down arms and commence rebuilding their country rather than fight occupation. However, that occurred too; you just didn't have the level of media coverage (bias) back in the 40s as you do today. This nation's media will ensure every military engagement we ever participate in will be as immensely unpopular as the one that preceded it because the only side of the story you'll get is the sensationalist grisly details.

We're not fighting Iraqis anymore. We haven't been. We're fighting every nutjob from surrounding countries like Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The collateral damage we inflict pales in comparison to the heavy casualties these grubby little muslim pricks are inflicting on the citizenry of the country.

Iraq can't oust them on their own. Not yet.

I have to agree with madman....I think 20 years from now this era will be looked upon much differently than it is today. Liberals in their instant gratification mindset don't have the stomach for a long term occupation, and long term occupation was inevitable from the start, and conservatives didn't lead anyone to believe otherwise.

Bush will be remembered in the history books as the president that took the fight to them and prevented further attack on our soil under his watch.

Obama should be so lucky to do the same if he gets elected, because his policies certainly won't emphasise national security and the safety of the populous like Bush.

It's funny too....so many of the things the democrats say Bush has done wrong, they were right there participating as well. Libs blame Bush for everything, even things that are not in a president's control, like the mortgage crisis, etc and the price of oil. The democrats have been right there along side Bush devaluing our currency by passing this stupid relief act where everyone got a check.

Then again, he also lowered taxes and increased tax revenue as a result.

Clinton will always be remembered by his cigars and banging an intern, and cheating on his wife in office. There's a helluva legacy.

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#616261 - 23/05/08 02:59 PM Re: The Real McCain
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:

I have to agree with madman....I think 20 years from now this era will be looked upon much differently than it is today.
These days are going to be referred to as "the good old days". It won't be 20 years either.

The destruction and damage coming down the road in the near future can barely be imagined right now.

Next month in June, the Democrats are going to try and ram through the largest tax increase in American history. They've been working on it since they took back control of Congress. If you have income, you're taxes are going up. For some waaayyy up. The death tax is going to be huge. They claim they are eliminating the AMT but it won't make a difference anyway. Your taxes are going up and some people will be paying federal taxes of close to 45% if it goes through.

George Bush will veto the bill, but if a Democrat is elected, it will be passed next year.

Along with the plethora of other damaging and costly legislation they have been openly discussing -- so this is not coming as any secret to people who have been paying attention --- everyone is going to be much, much poorer in a few years. That's the people who still have jobs and survive the coming job loses due to regulation and more jobs going overseas because of costly global warming legislation that is coming in 2009.

Yes... in four years time, these will be the "good old days".

That's "change".

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#616262 - 23/05/08 03:23 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
NYMM: George Bush will veto the bill, but if a Democrat is elected, it will be passed next year.
There is always the Filibuster, if the Republicans can find the fortitude to do it. Force every vote to be a 2/3rds majority and see how the Dems like it. Tie every spending/appropriations bill into oblivion and every Appointee doesn't get a hearing.

Should be interesting.

I think however, that we will find our sense of purpose and our ability to rally the base once there is a Definite candidate to run against. 527's will use the fodder they through upon each other to their advantage. They'll be "Swiftboating" them from all sides.

My only hope is that McCain's past doesn't come back to haunt him and if it does, he'll have enough ability to slam it down before the MSM has the chance to damage him and anyone associated with him. Being my Senator, I know the MSM is holding back some big time stories they'll use against him in the General. IE. AZSCAM, Border, S & L Debacle, etc. Not to mention the unmentionable about his wife, who isn't running, but that won't stop the 527's or the MSM from using innuendo or insinuation.

Moby, I guess we're both going to have to be wrong then, as I know you won't tell us what you really believe, You'll just say I'm wrong. That's fine with me.

Cheers, have a great weekend everyone. [Wave]

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#616263 - 23/05/08 03:37 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Rat:

[b]I have to agree with madman....I think 20 years from now this era will be looked upon much differently than it is today.
These days are going to be referred to as "the good old days". It won't be 20 years either.

The destruction and damage coming down the road in the near future can barely be imagined right now.

Next month in June, the Democrats are going to try and ram through the largest tax increase in American history. They've been working on it since they took back control of Congress. If you have income, you're taxes are going up. For some waaayyy up. The death tax is going to be huge. They claim they are eliminating the AMT but it won't make a difference anyway. Your taxes are going up and some people will be paying federal taxes of close to 45% if it goes through.

George Bush will veto the bill, but if a Democrat is elected, it will be passed next year.

Along with the plethora of other damaging and costly legislation they have been openly discussing -- so this is not coming as any secret to people who have been paying attention --- everyone is going to be much, much poorer in a few years. That's the people who still have jobs and survive the coming job loses due to regulation and more jobs going overseas because of costly global warming legislation that is coming in 2009.

Yes... in four years time, these will be the "good old days".

That's "change".[/b]
Dubya has done a horrible job on so many levels; his successes have been either dubious or relatively minor. When he came into the office he said "I'm a uniter, not a divider". It's a shame so many folks believed him. No doubt most feel betrayed by him (..I don't because he never earned my vote). It is hard to imagine historians looking kindly upon him or his staff.

But regardless who are next president might be I fear the next 4 years will be turbulent at best. I worry most about the domestic economy and gov't excess, again regardless of which party is power. I wish Obama/Clinton/McCain had the chutzpah to kick ass and simply do the right thing. I fear they don't.

IMHO, the Republican party has largely imploded. Dubya (and company) are mostly to blame. Oh, undoubtedly there will be a resurgence. But I suspect it won't be for another 10-12 years. Yet when they do they might very well be a MUCH better party than they are now - for example, more libertarian and fiscally responsible.

_Lazza

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#616264 - 24/05/08 07:06 PM Re: The Real McCain
Stonecoldchavez Offline
Member

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 1363
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Stonecoldchavez:
[b]
[quote][qb]It took over 40 years to defeat Communism. You think defeating these muslim terrorists is going to occur in 7 years?
Communism has been defeated?? Guess you haven't heard that about 1/6 of the worlds population is still living under it. And we didn't defeat it. It was defeated by a number of people, including it's own leader, Gorby.

We took care of Germany AND Japan in less time than it's taking to defeat the terrorists. And both of those were FAR more formidable.

Quote:
Mortgage crisis? Bush's fault right? Last time I checked he wasn't a mortgage writer....


Not his fault at all. But bailing everyone out MAY be his fault.

Quote:
What is actual Bush's fault (according to you)? He went with the intelligence reports provided to him and our Allies. He went with what the UN recommend after years of the UN Resolutions being ignored by Iraq. Was it all correct? Only time will tell.


He would have been in MUCH better shape had he stuck with Afghanistan. There was NO need to go into Iraq.

Quote:
You always criticize Bush. WHO would you have as President and WHAT would you propose they do and run the country??
In 2000, I would have MUCH preferred McCain.[/b]
Moby-

1) Ronald Reagan defeated Communism.

2) Cuba? Pffft... big Communism power there. China? Eh, because they have only 1 billion + people. Where are your Communist 1/6 that are a threat?

3) Are you seriously comparing Germany and Japan from WWII to terrorists of today? Last time I check Haji wasn't wearing a uniform from any recognized country.

4) "He would have been in MUCH better shape had he stuck with Afghanistan. There was NO need to go into Iraq." You know what they say about hindsight...... Only time will tell.

S.
_________________________
"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."

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#616265 - 24/05/08 08:25 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


umm... Reagon did not defeat communism. The soviet union broke apart, one of the biggest reason was that its economy crumbled, and the people got sick of it. So there was Coup d'ιtat.

He went to war in Grenada, saying that communists were planning to take over, but that was a huge lie, Grenada was trying to get tourism on the island. The students on the island were safe, contrary to what Reagan said.

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#616266 - 24/05/08 09:12 PM Re: The Real McCain
Mosi Offline
Member

Registered: 16/08/00
Posts: 682
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:


He went to war in Grenada, saying that communists were planning to take over, but that was a huge lie, Grenada was trying to get tourism on the island. The students on the island were safe, contrary to what Reagan said.
Yeah.. tell that the Marines as they were getting shot at.. one of them being my recruiter.
_________________________
confused previous X owner/then a previous Rover owner/ back to an X owner
07 Avalanche OR X 4x4

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#616267 - 24/05/08 09:21 PM Re: The Real McCain
DocNo Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/01
Posts: 3150
Loc: NoVA
Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:
He went to war in Grenada, saying that communists were planning to take over, but that was a huge lie, Grenada was trying to get tourism on the island. The students on the island were safe, contrary to what Reagan said.
_________________________
Murderous Fire!

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#616268 - 24/05/08 10:18 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mosi:
Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:
[b]

He went to war in Grenada, saying that communists were planning to take over, but that was a huge lie, Grenada was trying to get tourism on the island. The students on the island were safe, contrary to what Reagan said.
Yeah.. tell that the Marines as they were getting shot at.. one of them being my recruiter.[/b]
yea I'll tell them that. Ask him how the war was organized? The planning on the war was horrible, quite possibly worse than the bay of pigs

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#616269 - 25/05/08 04:05 AM Re: The Real McCain
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by Stonecoldchavez:

1) Ronald Reagan defeated Communism.


No he didn't.

Quote:
2) Cuba? Pffft... big Communism power there. China? Eh, because they have only 1 billion + people. Where are your Communist 1/6 that are a threat?
China isn't a threat?

Quote:
3) Are you seriously comparing Germany and Japan from WWII to terrorists of today? Last time I check Haji wasn't wearing a uniform from any recognized country.


So wait...I can't compare the terrorists to Germany or Japan, but you CAN compare it to the Soviet Union? There's that double standard again.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#616270 - 26/05/08 11:39 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Stonecoldchavez:
1) Ronald Reagan defeated Communism.
Once again...

THIS RONALD DID NOT DEFEAT COMMUNISM.


THIS RONALD DID.

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#616271 - 26/05/08 06:37 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Awesome, Shahram!!!! [LOL]

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#616272 - 26/05/08 08:34 PM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice! Shahram

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#616273 - 27/05/08 06:52 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Grenada was worse than the Bay of Pigs? Bwahhahahahhahahahahahahahah! [Save the fine unicorns]

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#616274 - 27/05/08 08:58 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:

He went to war in Grenada, saying that communists were planning to take over, but that was a huge lie, Grenada was trying to get tourism on the island. The students on the island were safe, contrary to what Reagan said.
Wow...just speechless. Did you hear that through Russian media?

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#616275 - 27/05/08 09:06 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#616276 - 27/05/08 09:27 AM Re: The Real McCain
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
The Global Policy Forum? [Freak]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a leftist would use a left wing organization like the Global Policy Forum for his propaganda and revisionist history.

What's the matter.... "Workers World" had nothing on the subject?

I can see you are another example of this country's mistake regarding allowing Russians to move here after the Cold War.

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#616277 - 27/05/08 09:34 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can post up actual evidence, but no one here would be able to access it. but that is how the war went and everything up to the war. Please post up anything contradictory to what that said.

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#616278 - 27/05/08 09:47 AM Re: The Real McCain
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:

I can post up actual evidence, but no one here would be able to access it. but that is how the war went and everything up to the war. Please post up anything contradictory to what that said.
There is no doubt that there were many reasons for the invasion of Grenada. It was however the right thing to do for many reasons.

The fact that our troops fought Cuban troops in the invasion reveals that is was the right thing to do. The invasion also scared the shit out of many tin pot Caribbean leftists and Marxists. Also a good thing.

Any Marxist governments that may have cropped up close to the United States during the Cold War were a clear and present danger to the interests and security of the United States.

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#616279 - 27/05/08 09:54 AM Re: The Real McCain
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Yasha:

[b]I can post up actual evidence, but no one here would be able to access it. but that is how the war went and everything up to the war. Please post up anything contradictory to what that said.
There is no doubt that there were many reasons for the invasion of Grenada. It was however the right thing to do for many reasons.

The fact that our troops fought Cuban troops in the invasion reveals that is was the right thing to do. The invasion also scared the shit out of many tin pot Caribbean leftists and Marxists. Also a good thing.

Any Marxist governments that may have cropped up close to the United States during the Cold War were a clear and present danger to the interests and security of the United States.[/b]
have any proof of that? if u link me, I might see where ur coming from.

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