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#617275 - 29/12/06 11:52 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
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Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]Moby- how do you think a glider can become airborne?
It has to have wind over the wings.[/b]
And since it has no built-in means of propulsion, how does it get wind over its wings?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617276 - 29/12/06 11:55 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]Moby- how do you think a glider can become airborne?
It has to have wind over the wings.[/b]
And since it has no built-in means of propulsion, how does it get wind over its wings?[/b]
Either by a windy day, or another object pulling it.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617277 - 29/12/06 11:56 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
But we are not assuming a headwind. We are assuming calm air. If the plane overcomes the headwind/water (conveyor belt), then the puzzle is flawed - because that would mean the conveyor belt has NOT matched the speed of the wheels.[/QB]
For this analogy:

Headwind=headwater

Calm wind= calm water

conveyor underfoot=conveyor overhead

headwind DOES NOT = conveyor

Headwater DOES NOT = conveyor

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#617278 - 29/12/06 11:56 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
But we are not assuming a headwind. We are assuming calm air. If the plane overcomes the headwind/water (conveyor belt), then the puzzle is flawed - because that would mean the conveyor belt has NOT matched the speed of the wheels.
For this analogy:

Headwind=headwater

Calm wind= calm water

conveyor underfoot=conveyor overhead

headwind DOES NOT = conveyor[/QB]
Calm wind does NOT equal calm water.

Gas does NOT equal liquid.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617279 - 29/12/06 11:57 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Moby- how do you think a glider can become airborne?
It has to have wind over the wings.[/b]
And since it has no built-in means of propulsion, how does it get wind over its wings?[/b]
Either by a windy day, or another object pulling it.
Yes! So, let's say that this glider is being pulled by another object, possibly either a car, another airplane, or a really fast winch.

Let's say that the towing device is at the far end of the runway, not attached to the conveyor belt.

Place the glider on the conveyor belt, and start the towing device.

Does the glider take off?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617280 - 29/12/06 11:59 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Posts: 8374
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Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Moby- how do you think a glider can become airborne?
It has to have wind over the wings.[/b]
And since it has no built-in means of propulsion, how does it get wind over its wings?[/b]
Either by a windy day, or another object pulling it.
Yes! So, let's say that this glider is being pulled by another object, possibly either a car, another airplane, or a really fast winch.

Let's say that the towing device is at the far end of the runway, not attached to the conveyor belt.

Place the glider on the conveyor belt, and start the towing device.

Does the glider take off?

That's flawed. You are now moving the glider in relation to the *calm* air - making it no longer calm to the glider.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617281 - 29/12/06 12:00 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Moby, it's for the sake of analogy. Are you just trolling now?

The air and the water are both the media through which their respective crafts propel themselves. The conveyor is simply there, touching an innocuous part of the craft which will have no effect on how that craft gets where it's going.

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#617282 - 29/12/06 12:01 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[qbDoes the glider take off?
That's flawed. You are now moving the glider in relation to the *calm* air - making it no longer calm to the glider.[/QB]
That's right! The glider is now MOVING through *not calm* air. (Moving air is inherently *not* calm. The glider is still moving! But the conveyor belt is also moving backward! Why? Because the glider is being towed!
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617283 - 29/12/06 12:01 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
They aren't the same craft. You really can't compare them.

Again...if the plane is standing still (it is, if the conveyor is moving), then there is NO wind to give the wings lift. The wings MUST have lift to get the plane off the ground.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617284 - 29/12/06 12:02 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[qbDoes the glider take off?
That's flawed. You are now moving the glider in relation to the *calm* air - making it no longer calm to the glider.[/b]
That's right! The glider is now MOVING through *not calm* air. (Moving air is inherently *not* calm. The glider is still moving! But the conveyor belt is also moving backward! Why? Because the glider is being towed![/QB]
The plane is not being towed. So it doesn't move against the calm air. No lift.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617285 - 29/12/06 12:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
They aren't the same craft. You really can't compare them.

Again...if the plane is standing still (it is, if the conveyor is moving), then there is NO wind to give the wings lift. The wings MUST have lift to get the plane off the ground.
If the plane is standing still, then the conveyor belt isn't moving, and it may as well be a parking lot.

Moby, what part of the plane has to move in order for the plane to be moving?

For your arguement to work, you would have to say the tires. But the tires on a commercial airliner are tucked up under the body, so does the plane not move, then, if the tires aren't rotating?

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#617286 - 29/12/06 12:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
That's flawed. You are now moving the glider in relation to the *calm* air - making it no longer calm to the glider.[/QB]
His example is not flawed. In it, the winch/truck/plane-not-on-a-conveyor (or on a conveyor, as it turns out) replaces a prop/turbine as a means of propulsion. None of these means are influenced by the conveyor.

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#617287 - 29/12/06 12:04 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
The plane is not being towed. So it doesn't move against the calm air. No lift.
Forget the plane for a second. Does a glider being towed get lift?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617288 - 29/12/06 12:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


The bitter taste of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

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#617289 - 29/12/06 12:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd rather apologize once for a higher price, than over and over for poorer quality.

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#617290 - 29/12/06 12:06 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Yeah, it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617291 - 29/12/06 12:08 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
The plane is not being towed. So it doesn't move against the calm air. No lift.[/QB]
A plane does not need lift to move forward. It needs only to push air.

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#617292 - 29/12/06 12:08 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]They aren't the same craft. You really can't compare them.

Again...if the plane is standing still (it is, if the conveyor is moving), then there is NO wind to give the wings lift. The wings MUST have lift to get the plane off the ground.
If the plane is standing still, then the conveyor belt isn't moving, and it may as well be a parking lot.

Moby, what part of the plane has to move in order for the plane to be moving?

For your arguement to work, you would have to say the tires. But the tires on a commercial airliner are tucked up under the body, so does the plane not move, then, if the tires aren't rotating?[/b]
No, not the tires.

Assuming calm air, that means the plane has to move in relation to the air...and the ground (since it's calm). That ain't gonna happen.

Put a windsock on the tip of the wing. Start the experiment. That sock is not going to flutter at ALL. If it's not fluttering, there is no wind to provide lift for the plane.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617293 - 29/12/06 12:09 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
The plane is not being towed. So it doesn't move against the calm air. No lift.
A plane does not need lift to move forward. It needs only to push air.[/QB]
It CAN'T move forward. It's not weightless. The conveyor belt keeps it from moving foward.

If it does move forward, the conveyor belt is failing to meet the speed.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617294 - 29/12/06 12:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Dude, Moby! Forget the plane for a second. Does a glider-in-tow on a conveyor belt move forward, get wind over its wings, and take off?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617295 - 29/12/06 12:15 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
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Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Not if the car is on a conveyor belt.

You're introducing an external power supply.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617296 - 29/12/06 12:16 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
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Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
By the way...who's the fucker who started this thread?!
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617297 - 29/12/06 12:17 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
The plane is not being towed. So it doesn't move against the calm air. No lift.
A plane does not need lift to move forward. It needs only to push air.[/b]
It CAN'T move forward. It's not weightless. The conveyor belt keeps it from moving foward.

If it does move forward, the conveyor belt is failing to meet the speed.[/QB]
Not correct. The aircraft has weight, yet can still taxi around. It taxis by pushing air, not by turning its wheels. The conveyor cannot keep the plane from moving any more than an overhead conveyor (even with equal load-bearing, say, a weight of 500 lbs on a vessel weighing 500 lbs) can't keep a boat from moving.

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#617298 - 29/12/06 12:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Not if the car is on a conveyor belt.

You're introducing an external power supply.
The car's NOT on the conveyor belt. Yes, the power supply is EXTERNAL. But it's external to the CONVEYOR belt! The power supply is still ATTACHED TO THE GLIDER.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617299 - 29/12/06 12:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Moby... The plane doesn't power/move because it's wheels move. It's wheels moving is irrelevent. And whatever they're touching is irrelevent. They spin freely, providing NO resistance to the aircraft movement. Therefore, you can spin 'em any direction you want, sideways even, and it won't matter because the plane's overall movement is caused by its engines, not it's wheels.

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