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#617400 - 30/12/06 09:47 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
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People have. There are all kinds of videos on YouTube, but none of them really show much of anything. Someone needs to do this experiment with a radio controlled jetliner on a conveyor system a-la Mythbusters.....Hopefully they'll reply to the email sent to them...

I just don't understand how it is so difficult for people to understand the forces being acted upon and the forces at work here....I've said it many many times.....

The conveyor belt puts a force on the wheels, NOT the engines. The engines are completely indepentant of the conveyor. The conveyor WILL NOT provide any resistance to the engines and the engines will continue to pull the airplane forward, thus creating lift, thus allowing the plane to take off. What's so difficult about that?!?

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#617401 - 30/12/06 09:58 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]If, however, you applied an external force to the car, like a big-ass fan, then the car would move over the ice.
You have just added a second power source.

The plane does NOT have a second power source.[/b]
Moby, you just contradicted your position, and you don't even know it...

The plane doesn't have a "second" power source. It has 1 power source. And it's not connected to the wheels. The wheels provide 0 propulsion or resistance of the plane's movement, at any time. So no matter how fast the wheels move, the plane's motion is NOT controlled by their movement.

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#617402 - 30/12/06 10:15 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Look, are we all in agreement that on the aircraft carrier, it would not take off?

Put the aircraft carrier on the conveyor belt.

The conveyor belt now moves the boat (instead of the boat's engines - they are connected, so it doesn't matter).

The exact same scenario!

The air around the wings does NOT move - there is nothing to provide lift.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617403 - 30/12/06 10:16 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
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Imagine a hamster on a wheel. The hamster runs, the wheel turns, and the hamster moves across the surface of the wheel but stays in the same relative position so like the plane, there's no airflow over the hamster.

Now on the same wheel (maybe bigger), put the hamster on "nearly frictionless" skates and strap a tiny jet engine on its back. Guess what? The wheel still turns (just faster) and the hamster still maintains a stationary position at the usual place on the wheel. It doesn't travel around the inside of the wheel.

Where Hawk seems hung up is on the relative position. Though air is moving through the engines, generating thrust, the plane itself must be moving forward to generate lift. According to the scenario, the more thrust applied, the faster the belt goes, so the moving treadmill prevents forward motion by in effect giving the wheels nowhere to go.

If the belt moves faster as the plane moves faster, the plane's RELATIVE position doesn't move forward, so again, there's no airflow over the wings. In the scenario given, even with the engines at full power, if you raise the landing gear the plane will collapse to the ground.

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#617404 - 30/12/06 10:16 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow-it took me over an hour late last night to read all these pages. Then I forgot what the post was about. If I have repeated any one else's post-it was not done deliberately. My two cents. Ground speed and air speed are not independent of each other. Air speed is created by thrust. Thrust in this case is created by the engines. Not the spinning wheels. If you take a balloon, and blow it up-then release it. It will essentially fly away until it has no more foreword thrust (escaping air). If that same balloon is let go into a head wind of equal thrust/speed-the balloon will stay where it is....mid air. Not counting on how un-aerodynamic a balloon is. Still flying-but going no where. If the thrust of the plane going foreword is less then the treadmills speed, then the plane will go backward. If the thrust is greater, the plane will fly away. If the thrust is equal to the tread mill-the plane will still fly. But will not take off as quickly because ground speed and air speed is the same. But the plane will fly away. Do you guys remember the old WWII Naval pictures of naval aircraft taking off from carriers? This was before catapults. The carriers would turn into the wind and go full steam ahead. Back then, they could muster maybe 20 or so knots of foreword speed. The planes would lumber into the air and would either crash into the ocean or fly away-very slowly until their air speed was much greater than ground speed. So, to all you can't fly mother fuckers, your wrong. Now, that last sentence was meant for the ALR. As you quote me and may be flame me-remember, I am a very delicate flower. Bruise easy. Have a nice New Years.

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#617405 - 30/12/06 10:17 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]If, however, you applied an external force to the car, like a big-ass fan, then the car would move over the ice.
You have just added a second power source.

The plane does NOT have a second power source.[/b]
Moby, you just contradicted your position, and you don't even know it...

The plane doesn't have a "second" power source. It has 1 power source.[/b]
EXACTLY. The car by itself would not have a secondary power source. It won't move.

Put the fan on it - it has a secondary power source.

Again - try the rope example. The rope is not fluid, and it is taught - meaning it's connected to something else.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617406 - 30/12/06 10:19 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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The jet has to overcome it's weight to move forward.

So the friction of the wheels IS relevant.

If it weren't, you could walk up to a plane and push it with your own force.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617407 - 30/12/06 10:19 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Look, are we all in agreement that on the aircraft carrier, it would not take off?....
You cannot agree on anything about the Aircraft carrier scenario.

It is INVALID. It does not have anything holding the plane back yet it states the plane does not move.

That ridiculous scenario has done nothing but confuse the issue further.

Read above and please come to terms with the correct answer.

Bottom line:

Jet engines push (F = ma ==> a =F/m)

Wheels roll, and don't push back.

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#617408 - 30/12/06 10:20 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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You know...

Why HASN'T someone actually gone through the trouble of a computer model of this?
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617409 - 30/12/06 10:40 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

People have. There are all kinds of videos on YouTube, but none of them really show much of anything. Someone needs to do this experiment with a radio controlled jetliner on a conveyor system a-la Mythbusters.....Hopefully they'll reply to the email sent to them...
I wouldn't count on Mythbusters.

Rinky linked to a physics forum with 500 pages on this topic. Someone on one of the first pages said they emailed Mythbusters and that was over a year ago. I'm sure they have received hundreds if not thousands of emails on this topic.

Quote:
The conveyor belt puts a force on the wheels, NOT the engines. The engines are completely indepentant of the conveyor. The conveyor WILL NOT provide any resistance to the engines and the engines will continue to pull the airplane forward, thus creating lift, thus allowing the plane to take off. What's so difficult about that?!?
You are correct in stating the conveyor provides no resistance to the aircraft's engines.

The conveyor is matching the speed of the plane.

Let me ask you this question.... Does a person sitting on the wing of that plane feel the wind? If the conveyor is moving 200MPH in one direction and the plane's engines are throttled down and it's instruments say it is traveling at 200MPH in the other direction -- does a person sitting on the wing of that plane feel that wind?

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#617410 - 30/12/06 10:43 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Imagine a hamster on a wheel. The hamster runs, the wheel turns, and the hamster moves across the surface of the wheel but stays in the same [b]relative position so like the plane, there's no airflow over the hamster.

Now on the same wheel (maybe bigger), put the hamster on "nearly frictionless" skates and strap a tiny jet engine on its back. Guess what? The wheel still turns (just faster) and the hamster still maintains a stationary position at the usual place on the wheel. It doesn't travel around the inside of the wheel.

Where Hawk seems hung up is on the relative position. Though air is moving through the engines, generating thrust, the plane itself must be moving forward to generate lift. According to the scenario, the more thrust applied, the faster the belt goes, so the moving treadmill prevents forward motion by in effect giving the wheels nowhere to go.

If the belt moves faster as the plane moves faster, the plane's RELATIVE position doesn't move forward, so again, there's no airflow over the wings. In the scenario given, even with the engines at full power, if you raise the landing gear the plane will collapse to the ground.[/b]
Bad analogy with the hamster. If the hamster were atop the wheel, it would be better. In the wheel, there is always something in front of the hamster keeping it inside the wheel, regardless of means of propulsion. However, if atop the wheel, the hamster with rockets will not be contained and will be propelled forward. Still not a good analogy, but it doesn't have the containment. Inside the wheel, depending on the thrust of the jet/rocket whatever, and the hamster's grip on the wheel, the wheel would whip around backwards like a firework pinwheel.

Hawk is not hung up, you are. The wheels cannot keep the plane from taking off, no matter how fast they spin.

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#617411 - 30/12/06 10:49 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:


Let me ask you this question.... Does a person sitting on the wing of that plane feel the wind? If the conveyor is moving 200MPH in one direction and the plane's engines are throttled down and it's instruments say it is traveling at 200MPH in the other direction -- does a person sitting on the wing of that plane feel that wind?
The plane's instruments would not indicate any speed at all if it was throttled down (no power) and the plane was stationairy. If the plane was throttled up (powered) then the plane would move forward (relative to the ground, not the conveyor) and the "wing passenger" would feel wind.

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#617412 - 30/12/06 10:50 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
You know...

Why HASN'T someone actually gone through the trouble of a computer model of this?
Instead of trying to convince everybody that the wrong answer is right, read the UNBELIEVIABLY simple physics of the situation.

Coefficient of dynamic friction:

Force of friction:

F(f) = -uN

(negative because it opposes motion)

u = coefficient of static friction

N = weight of plane

Notice velocity is not included!

That means that the velocity of the conveyor belt is irrelevant for all practical purposes.

F(t) is force of thrust

a = (F(t)+F(f))/m

You won't find a scenario where |F(f)| is greater than |F(t)|. Therefore, in ALL cases the plane moves with respect to the atmosphere, thus achieving lift.

Please stop being so bloody indignant and pause long enough to understand why the correct answer is correct. [Huh?]

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#617413 - 30/12/06 10:55 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
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Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
The jet has to overcome it's weight to move forward.

So the friction of the wheels IS relevant.

If it weren't, you could walk up to a plane and push it with your own force.
Exactly. Two questions to the "plane doesn't care what the wheels are doing" group:

1. You think the wheel friction doesn't enter into it? Stick your head under one of them, since they're bearing the entire weight of the aircraft, and see what happens.

2. If what's going on with the wheels doesn't matter, try reducing their speed to zero and see what happens, even with full thrust. Trust me, you won't fly.

You guys are confusing the issue of what counteracts what to achieve flight.

Lift overcomes gravity.
Thrust overcomes drag.

BOTH must occur for flight. The wheels turning on a stationary surface allows the thrust to overcome gravity (the aircraft's weight).

Think of the law that says an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless an outside force is applied. The outside force here is engine thrust, but it's negated by the moving belt, so the object remains at rest and gravity thus is NOT overcome by lift.

The plane WILL NOT FLY.

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#617414 - 30/12/06 10:59 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:

Put the fan on it - it has a secondary power source.

Again - try the rope example. The rope is not fluid, and it is taught - meaning it's connected to something else.
Moby, the car on ice (magic frictionless surface) Is in park with the E-brake on, and you put the big-ass fan on it, it will still move.

It doesn't matter that the rope is taut, it is an external means of propulsion, just like air. Air is connected to something else-other air. For real, if you think that an aircraft cannot move by manipulating air, then I don't know if anyone will be able to make this scenario clear to you.

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#617415 - 30/12/06 11:01 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
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Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
[b]Imagine a hamster on a wheel. The hamster runs, the wheel turns, and the hamster moves across the surface of the wheel but stays in the same [b]relative position so like the plane, there's no airflow over the hamster.

Now on the same wheel (maybe bigger), put the hamster on "nearly frictionless" skates and strap a tiny jet engine on its back. Guess what? The wheel still turns (just faster) and the hamster still maintains a stationary position at the usual place on the wheel. It doesn't travel around the inside of the wheel.

Where Hawk seems hung up is on the relative position. Though air is moving through the engines, generating thrust, the plane itself must be moving forward to generate lift. According to the scenario, the more thrust applied, the faster the belt goes, so the moving treadmill prevents forward motion by in effect giving the wheels nowhere to go.

If the belt moves faster as the plane moves faster, the plane's RELATIVE position doesn't move forward, so again, there's no airflow over the wings. In the scenario given, even with the engines at full power, if you raise the landing gear the plane will collapse to the ground.[/b]
Bad analogy with the hamster. If the hamster were atop the wheel, it would be better. In the wheel, there is always something in front of the hamster keeping it inside the wheel, regardless of means of propulsion. However, if atop the wheel, the hamster with rockets will not be contained and will be propelled forward. Still not a good analogy, but it doesn't have the containment. Inside the wheel, depending on the thrust of the jet/rocket whatever, and the hamster's grip on the wheel, the wheel would whip around backwards like a firework pinwheel.

Hawk is not hung up, you are. The wheels cannot keep the plane from taking off, no matter how fast they spin.[/b]
I disagree about the hamster because as stated in the original post here, the wheel would keep increasing in speed.

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#617416 - 30/12/06 11:04 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:

The plane's instruments would not indicate any speed at all if it was throttled down (no power) and the plane was stationairy. If the plane was throttled up (powered) then the plane would move forward (relative to the ground, not the conveyor) and the "wing passenger" would feel wind.
Throttle up/down... whatever. You knew what I was getting at.

Now -- We have already established that an outside observer viewing the plane on the conveyor belt would see it as a stationary object because of the matching speeds between the conveyor belt and the plane.

Are you absolutely sure that a person sitting on that wing would feel the rushing wind on their face... even though the observer is experiencing no wind on what is otherwise a non-windy day?

I ask because that is the key to the entire scenario and the flight of the aircraft in this hypothetical situation. None of the other peripheral issues being added to the discussion matter. That is the entire key.

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#617417 - 30/12/06 11:08 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]The jet has to overcome it's weight to move forward.

So the friction of the wheels IS relevant.

If it weren't, you could walk up to a plane and push it with your own force.
Exactly. Two questions to the "plane doesn't care what the wheels are doing" group:

1. You think the wheel friction doesn't enter into it? Stick your head under one of them, since they're bearing the entire weight of the aircraft, and see what happens.

2. If what's going on with the wheels doesn't matter, try reducing their speed to zero and see what happens, even with full thrust. Trust me, you won't fly.

You guys are confusing the issue of what counteracts what to achieve flight.

Lift overcomes gravity.
Thrust overcomes drag.

BOTH must occur for flight. The wheels turning on a stationary surface allows the thrust to overcome gravity (the aircraft's weight).

Think of the law that says an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless an outside force is applied. The outside force here is engine thrust, but it's negated by the moving belt, so the object remains at rest and gravity thus is NOT overcome by lift.

The plane WILL NOT FLY.[/b]
OK, I'll try again. Wheels are simple tools designed to minimize friction. Propellors and jet turbines are relatively simple machines designed to MOVE whatever vehicle they're mounted on. No matter what the surface beneath the wheels does, as long as the wheels can perform their function and reduce friction (spin freely) the prop/turbine will power the craft forward.

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#617418 - 30/12/06 11:10 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
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Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
[b]The jet has to overcome it's weight to move forward.

So the friction of the wheels IS relevant.

If it weren't, you could walk up to a plane and push it with your own force.
Exactly. Two questions to the "plane doesn't care what the wheels are doing" group:

1. You think the wheel friction doesn't enter into it? Stick your head under one of them, since they're bearing the entire weight of the aircraft, and see what happens.

2. If what's going on with the wheels doesn't matter, try reducing their speed to zero and see what happens, even with full thrust. Trust me, you won't fly.

You guys are confusing the issue of what counteracts what to achieve flight.

Lift overcomes gravity.
Thrust overcomes drag.

BOTH must occur for flight. The wheels turning on a stationary surface allows the thrust to overcome gravity (the aircraft's weight).

Think of the law that says an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless an outside force is applied. The outside force here is engine thrust, but it's negated by the moving belt, so the object remains at rest and gravity thus is NOT overcome by lift.

The plane WILL NOT FLY.[/b]
OK, I'll try again. Wheels are simple tools designed to minimize friction. Propellors and jet turbines are relatively simple machines designed to MOVE whatever vehicle they're mounted on. No matter what the surface beneath the wheels does, as long as the wheels can perform their function and reduce friction (spin freely) the prop/turbine will power the craft forward.[/b]
Unless the surface they're on is moving in the opposite direction. laugh

So by your statement, if the surface is moving sideways, the craft will go forward?

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#617419 - 30/12/06 11:12 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:

[b]The plane's instruments would not indicate any speed at all if it was throttled down (no power) and the plane was stationairy. If the plane was throttled up (powered) then the plane would move forward (relative to the ground, not the conveyor) and the "wing passenger" would feel wind.
Throttle up/down... whatever. You knew what I was getting at.

Now -- We have already established that an outside observer viewing the plane on the conveyor belt would see it as a stationary object because of the matching speeds between the conveyor belt and the plane.[/b]
We have established no such thing. The plane will travel forward relative to the ground, relative to the air, and at twice that rate relative to the conveyor.
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:

Are you absolutely sure that a person sitting on that wing would feel the rushing wind on their face... even though the observer is experiencing no wind on what is otherwise a non-windy day?

I ask because that is the [b]key to the entire scenario
and the flight of the aircraft in this hypothetical situation. None of the other peripheral issues being added to the discussion matter. That is the entire key.[/b]
The key here is what I said above. The plane is not stationary, it moves forward relative to everything around it.

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#617420 - 30/12/06 11:15 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
The plane will travel forward relative to the ground, relative to the air, and at twice that rate relative to the conveyor.
No it won't.

The WHEELS will travel at twice the rate relative to the conveyor.

The conveyor matches the PLANE'S speed.

Jet says it's doing 60knots.

Conveyor is going -60 knots.

Wheels are going 120 knots relative to the conveyor.

The original question:

Quote:
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617421 - 30/12/06 11:20 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:

Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:

Now -- We have already established that an outside observer viewing the plane on the conveyor belt would see it as a stationary object because of the matching speeds between the conveyor belt and the plane.
We have established no such thing. The plane will travel forward relative to the ground, relative to the air, and at twice that rate relative to the conveyor.
I think you need to read the thread again.

Since the conveyor is matching the speed of the plane, once those speeds have been matched, an outside observer most certainly does view the plane as being stationary.

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#617422 - 30/12/06 11:20 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
.....The WHEELS will travel at twice the rate relative to the conveyor.....
Not exactly.

The wheels will rotate at twice their normal rate.

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#617423 - 30/12/06 11:20 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
This is giving me a headache.

What if the question was a similar conveyor on a downward slope with a vehicle on it with free-spinning wheels? No matter how fast the conveyor went, gravity would pull the vehicle downhill, right?

That's causing me to rethink my position though all my previous arguments still seem valid.

Good grief.

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#617424 - 30/12/06 11:22 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
So by your statement, if the surface is moving sideways, the craft will go forward?
No, if the surface is moving sideways it would create friction with the wheels which are designed to move longitudinally, not laterally. A plane with landing gear mounted sideways would be able to create forward motion with the props/jets, but would have a hard time overcoming the additional friction. That's why the smart fellas over at lockheed and boeing like to put the wheels on longitudinally. However, if the surface was ice (or the magical friction-free or friction-light surface) and the plane could have four sets of sideways landing gear and still move forward and take off.

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