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#617575 - 30/12/06 05:58 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

You are confusing the motion of the belt with force. It exerts virtually no force on the plane due to the wheels, which spin freely.
It is you my friend who is confused.

Stop bringing the wheels and all the other peripheral garbage back into the discussion. You are confusing yourself.

If you are running on a treadmill with the treadmill's speed and your running pace matched exactly, your relative position to the earth will not change.

It is no different for the plane. Once you get over that fact, we can move on. Where's your "open mind"?

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#617576 - 30/12/06 06:02 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

[b]You are confusing the motion of the belt with force. It exerts virtually no force on the plane due to the wheels, which spin freely.
....If you are running on a treadmill with the treadmill's speed and your running pace matched exactly, your relative position to the earth will not change.

It is no different for the plane. Once you get over that fact, we can move on. Where's your "open mind"?[/b]
Roller skate on your treadmill, you won't go anywhere.

Strap a jet engine to your a$$ and turn it on. We'll see how long you stay put.

50 tons of thrust will EASILY overcome the friction of your lil roller skates, with or without a treadmill!! [Finger]

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#617577 - 30/12/06 06:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
They have none.

I like cornflakes.
_________________________
2001 Super Black XE R.I.P. 09/05/06
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#617578 - 30/12/06 06:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

Roller skate on your treadmill, you won't go anywhere.

Strap a jet engine to your a$$ and turn it on. We'll see how long you stay put.

50 tons of thrust will EASILY overcome the friction of your lil roller skates, with or without a treadmill!! [Finger]
That is exactly what I was stating earlier. You have no desire to discuss the scenario. Not in a reasonable manner.

You are projecting your own arrogance into the debate.

If I strapped a jet engine to myself and was on a conveyor that matched my speed as in the original scenario, an outside observer would view my position as stationary.

The original scenario obviously means nothing anymore in your contributions to the discussion.

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#617579 - 30/12/06 06:38 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
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Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
NYMadman-

Please explain how a backwards-moving treadmill or conveyor belt that contacts the WHEELS of an airplane can negate the thrust of engines pushing against air that is not backwards-moving. Remember: the wheels aren't GLUED to the treadmill, they're just rolling along its surface.
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#617580 - 30/12/06 06:40 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
I am now starting to believe that madman is correct. The treadmill speed will consistantly increase to match the opposing velocity, so therefore you will stay in one place. The jets are basically working to keep you from flying off in the opposite direction.

Stand on a treadmill in a pair of roller blades. If you aint holding on, you fly off the back. Strapping jets to your back will counter that momentum, but if you are on some super sonic treadmill that can continually exert the opposing force to the jets, you will never reach forward motion, you will contantly be stationary.

It would be the same with the plane. You would never get airflow over the wings. BECAUSE THE TREADMILL WILL CONTINUALLY SPIN FASTER. (since that is the whole premise of the question.)

If the treadmill reached a maximum velocity that does not match the output of the jets then perhaps enough forward motion would be reached to provide enough airflow for lift.

But since hypothetically the treadmill will always match the output of the engines, it will reamin stationary.

Look at it this way. If you shut down the engines, you would fbe thrown through the wall behind you wheels or not.

Thats how I see it.
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#617581 - 30/12/06 06:47 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
MBFlyerfan-

You, my friend, are also mistaken about thrust.

Think about how ground-based vehicles move. They basically force the ground beneath them to move backwards, relative to the vehicle. How do they do this? By applying power to the wheels in contact with the ground.

If there's a really strong headwind, can the vehicle still move forward? The answer, of course, is yes, until the drag on the vehicle is so great that the engine can no longer move the vehicle forward. Unfortunately, on ground-based vehicles, the forces of both friction (traction) and drag affect forward motion.

In an airplane, drag is the only thing that can prevent forward motion. (When an airplane is in the air, it's not touching the ground. The plane doesn't care what the ground is doing, it only cares about the air it's traveling through is doing.)
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617582 - 30/12/06 06:53 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
I see what you are saying. If the plane is exerting no thrust, in the scenario, the treadmill is also still.

I can see why this was such a connundrum. Even a few guys on that link someone posted disputed the conclusion.

Would it get to a point where the wheels cant spin any faster due to friction? Yet the treadmill would continue to increase speed to infiniti. That is where my brain starts to twist up. And if the wheels couldnt turn fast enough eventually it would counter the thrust of the engines through friction alone?

Im just asking questions, no need to get insulting.
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#617583 - 30/12/06 06:56 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


no way in hell the plane will take off. and just like forrest gump, "that's all i have to say about that."

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#617584 - 30/12/06 07:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
NYMadman-

Please explain how a backwards-moving treadmill or conveyor belt that contacts the WHEELS of an airplane can negate the thrust of engines pushing against air that is not backwards-moving. Remember: the wheels aren't GLUED to the treadmill, they're just rolling along its surface.
Why don't you please explain to me why you are even bothering bringing the wheels into this discussion.

The wheels ARE NOT part of the discussion. If the wheels were intended to be part of the discussion the original scenario would have stipulated something about the wheels. It would have done that because in the real world the wheels will blow or some other thing would happen due to the increased rotation.

The hypothetical scenario said the conveyor belt matches the plane's speed.

The discussion is supposed to be about the parameters laid out in the hypothetical scenario. Not about wheels, bearings or anything else along those lines. The plane could be held up on the shoulders of a bunch of illegal immigrants running for the border on the conveyor belt for all we care regarding the scenario parameters. It's an irrelevant aspect of the scenario.

People are bringing things into the debate that really shouldn't be part of the discussion.

...PLANE--CONVEYOR BELT MATCHING SPEED OF PLANE--AERODYNAMICS....

That is all that should be discussed according to the original scenario. It is not asking for any more.

Are we in agreement on that fact?

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#617585 - 30/12/06 07:13 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunx:
If air speed over the wings is required for flight then why have F1 and Indy cars been airborne
F1 and Indy cars have wings.

HOWEVER. As the case with Johnny Rutherford a number of years ago flipping his car after it took off - the bottom of an Indy car is completely flat. It already had forward momentum. The car was NOT at a right angle - it was at an acute angle to the ground. The car's bottom pushed against the wind - the opposite force of the air pushed the car UP and over.

Quote:
and why is a primary concern for land speed attempts maintaining enough downforce at speed to prevent the vehicle from achieving flight.
Look at the shape of it. The air is forced into a smaller area underneath. It will force the car up.

If that car was on a conveyor belt, and that conveyor belt didn't move ANY air underneath - it would not lift.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617586 - 30/12/06 07:14 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
I see what you are saying. If the plane is exerting no thrust, in the scenario, the treadmill is also still.

I can see why this was such a connundrum. Even a few guys on that link someone posted disputed the conclusion.

Would it get to a point where the wheels cant spin any faster due to friction? Yet the treadmill would continue to increase speed to infiniti. That is where my brain starts to twist up. And if the wheels couldnt turn fast enough eventually it would counter the thrust of the engines through friction alone?

Im just asking questions, no need to get insulting.
This has been my point all along. I have no doubt in my mind if the speed of the conveyor was limited the plane would take off. However, in this scenario the conveyor is not. What it does not state is if the planes engines (thrust) is limited i.e. maximum throttle. If they are not either then I say the plane would blow up or the wheels would fly off.

The best one yet was turn the engines off as the wheels are flying along and they engines were at max thrust. Eventually the plane will move backwards. So there is some friction there. If the conveyor can continually meet that it will never gain enough speed to take off. Some yes but in my mind not enough.

What is really funny is the ones who think it will fly are the only ones so far who have said we are closed minded and resorted to name calling. Not all of them but some.

For those fuck off.
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#617587 - 30/12/06 07:28 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:

The plane doesn't care what the ground is doing, it only cares about the air it's traveling through is doing.)
And I have said it NUMEROUS times, that is what the primary discussion should be about.

Think about it for a second...

The only difference between what we have to work with in the scenario and a normal conventional takeoff is the effects of the fluid air and the differences or similarities between the scenario and a normal conventional runway takeoff.

People are not staying within the paramenters of the scenario.

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#617588 - 30/12/06 07:41 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Hmm...the fact that MadMan thinks the wheels are unimportant explains why he doesn't understand that they are the single MOST important point...

MadMan thinks (As do many others...not just him...) that somehow that the tires rotating is because of the belt.

He even thinks that a person next to the belt would see it spinning, but see the plane standing still.

What he DOESN'T see is WHY WE KEEP BRINGING UP THE FREEKIN WHEELS.

laugh

Its GOT to be the speed thing...its the ONLY way for this many people to look at this, and come to this many conceptions of it.

We have a physic professer giving a perfectly reasonable exaplaination that makes perfect sense...and, we STILL have people (Who just did not understand the physics...) arguing that the plane can't take off.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617589 - 30/12/06 07:50 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
The "parameters of the scenario" are that the plane is on a conveyor belt, and that the belt matches the plane's speed.

We have a logical point, that as the belt MATCHES the plane's speed, the plane has to MOVE for the belt to move.

__________________________________________________

The Plane CANNOT MOVE BY TURNING ITS TIRES.

__________________________________________________

IE: A PLANE, in the context of this "can it take off" scenario...CAN NOT MOVE BY ROTATING ITS TIRES.

THE PLANE CAN NOT TURN ITS TIRES....the tires can ONLY turn, IF the plane rolls forward....by engine thrust PUSHING IT...and the tires JUST ROLL, PASSIVELY.

____________

Its a conyeyor belt...it does not change fluid dynamics, physics, wind speed, air density, or any of the odd suggestions that it might.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617590 - 30/12/06 07:52 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
So -

CF's are in essence, saying that the belt never moves...as, of course, the plane can not move.

_____________

They say this indirectly, because the belt only moves if the plane does...and there is no way for the plane to make its tires turn w/o moving.

________________________
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617591 - 30/12/06 07:54 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
The CF'r say: (Indirectly)

There are NO forces that are making the tires spin faster...or at all...so the plane sits there on a still conveyor belt.

Agreed?
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617592 - 30/12/06 07:57 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Paul H Offline
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Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
No I don't think it sits still. I just think there will not be enough speed gained before running out of runway or the tires blow up.

I think it will move.
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2001 Super Black XE R.I.P. 09/05/06
My Blog

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#617593 - 30/12/06 07:59 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
I put a toy car (no motor, like a Hot Wheel...) on the floor.

If the car moves, I will move the floor at the EXACT SAME SPEED AS THE CAR.

Will I EVER need to move the floor?

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617594 - 30/12/06 07:59 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ya know, it has just occurred to me that this thread has been a huge boost to the post count of a select few XOC members laugh

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#617595 - 30/12/06 08:02 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:

Hmm...the fact that MadMan thinks the wheels are unimportant explains why he doesn't understand that they are the single MOST important point...

MadMan thinks (As do many others...not just him...) that somehow that the tires rotating is because of the belt.

He even thinks that a person next to the belt would see it spinning, but see the plane standing still.
I don't know who is worse, you or Jeff.

You don't bother to read what is written, and when you seemingly claim to read what is written your comprehension is the same as the groundspeed in the scenario, which is zero.

The wheels ARE NOT the single most important point. When are you going to face that fact? They are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Since the hypothetical scenario tells us that the conveyor matches the plane's speed ... that is all we need to know. The hypothethical doesn't give a damn how the plane got it's speed or how it is maintaining it's speed. All the hypothetical gives a damn about is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Nothing else is important at this point.

In a nutshell... all we care about is aerodynamic principles. We are concerned with the relative velocity of the plane in the scenario vs. the relative velocity of the same plane in a conventional runway takeoff.

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#617596 - 30/12/06 08:06 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
As explained in the physics professor's explaination, and a few others...

The tires needing to rotate faster is not a problem as far as take off goes...

Planes LAND at much higher loads, and the tires are designed to take quite a lot of extra load, in case of blowout of other tires, etc.

So - IF the plane CAN move...it is travelleing DOWN the CONVEYOR BELT>>>as to turn a tire, the tire HAS TO ROLL OVER THE BELT, AND because the belt matches the speed of the PLANE, but

THE TIRES ARE TRAVERSING THE SURFACE OF THE BELT AT TWICE THE SPEED OF THE BELT.

THAT means that the plane is moving at normal take off speed, and travelling down the belt.

Period.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617597 - 30/12/06 08:07 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Fine - just answer this:

Will the belt EVER turn?
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617598 - 30/12/06 08:27 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:

So - IF the plane CAN move...it is travelleing DOWN the CONVEYOR BELT
The plane IS NOT traveling down the conveyor belt.

The conveyor belt has matched the speed of the plane. Once this occurs.. the plane is moving ON the conveyor belt. It is not traveling anywhere. Not in relation to the ground.

You are not comprehending the basic statement from the scenario regarding the conveyor matching the plane's speed. Whatever speed the plane happens to decide to operate.

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#617599 - 30/12/06 08:34 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


OMFG!

Who cares about the bloody belt???

Chrike!!!

Refute the equations, if you can.

Otherwise you should endeavor to learn why the correct answer is correct.

Being indignant and obstinate will never make the incorrect answer correct.

One assumption I forgot to mention:

the airplane is capable of flying (with airspeed).

........

Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
Fine - just answer this:

Will the belt EVER turn?
Not unless the plane is MOVING (airspeed?)!!

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