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#617325 - 29/12/06 01:58 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Well, I'm outta here. Time to go home.

I have the question sent to a couple people - 1 engineer, 1 pilot.

We'll see what their opinion is.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617326 - 29/12/06 01:59 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by far west X:
ok its going to take a blond to answer the question.. If you are in the gym and there happens to be a blond on the treadmill, she is running as fast as she can, and her hair is down.. Will her hair fly back like it would if she was running on the side of the road.. NO.. There is your answer..
this is assuming that the treadmill of the plane can keep up with the top speed of the jet.

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#617327 - 29/12/06 02:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:

It cannot move on the ground, because the conveyor is negating it's forward movement.

The friectional force of the conveyor belts is NOWHERE near enough to negate the Thrust force of the jet engine.

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#617328 - 29/12/06 02:14 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by AHTOXA:
[b]Nothing moves the wheels.
Wrong. The propulsion of the jets move the wheels.[/b]
If you push/pull a wagon, are you moving the wheels, or are the wheels reacting to your kinetic energy?

When you drive your rig, the engine turns the wheels directly (through the drivetrain) creating the forward motion of the truck. When you push a radio flyer, the wheels are reactive, not active. put a radio flyer on an old-fashioned treadmill (which requires you to push it to get it going). You can roll it right off and the treadmill won't turn, because you're not exerting any force on the surface.
Quote:
Then the question is flawed. If it cannot exert enough force, it cannot match the speed. The question said it can.
The speed of the aircraft and the speed of the conveyor are independant quantities. The question does not say that the plane will be kept stationary by the conveyor, it says that the conveyor will spin at the same speed in the opposite direction. Ergo- plane travels 120 KIAS, conveyor goes 120 knots, wheels spin at 240knots until liftoff.

::eta:: Speed and force are different things. The conveyor can still match the plane's speed but not be able to push the plane back. It can't push the plane back because some clever monkey put wheels on the bottom, so when the conveyor pushes against the bottom of the tire, it just spins. Meanwhile the plane is pushing air and travelling at the same speed as the conveyor, but in the opposite direction. [notice I said "travelling", not "sitting"] No matter how much the conveyor pushes, all it affects are the wheels. It cannot push on the fuselage or any other part of the plane like the prop/jet can.

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#617329 - 29/12/06 02:20 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by far west X:
Quote:
Originally posted by far west X:
[b]ok its going to take a blond to answer the question.. If you are in the gym and there happens to be a blond on the treadmill, she is running as fast as she can, and her hair is down.. Will her hair fly back like it would if she was running on the side of the road.. NO.. There is your answer..
this is assuming that the treadmill of the plane can keep up with the top speed of the jet.[/b]
Even if the conveyor spun at 100 times the speed of the aircraft, the plane would still create forward speed by pushing air the way a powerboat pushes water. The friction against the wheels is infintesmal (sp?) and is overcome by the props/jets pushing the whole plane.

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#617330 - 29/12/06 02:27 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
OMG

OK

The Xterra on the tread mill is limited as the CF's are arguing...and could not move...the plane is not, and can move.

The engine's thrust does NOT turn the wheels...the wheels, in fact, won't move AT ALL in the given example, unless THE PLANE moves.

laugh

So, the can't fly proponents (CF'rs) are NOT saying that the wheels will spin too fast, or that the conveyor will run too fast...but, that the conveyor will not move AT all.

laugh

Pay Attention here:

If the conveyor belt rolls AT ALL...it means the plane is moving.

There is NO other way to make the conveyor move...it matches the plane's speed exactly.

Let that sink in.
_________________________________________________

laugh

OK

Now,

WHAT can make the plane move?

There's only ONE thing that makes the plane move...any guesses?

laugh

The thrust from the engines.

Can we all agree that a planes engines can make it move?

I mean...its worked for deacdes so far...that's how they do it every day at Newark Airport at least.

laugh

Fine - we have the ability to make a plane move using thrust from the engines...agreed?

(We all ALSO agree that if the plane could power its tires, that THAT would NOT make the plane move...as THAT motion is the same as the XTERRA's motion...)

Now - here's the part where all the CF's trip up on the logic...

The thrust will push the plane forward...and, the conveyor will roll along under it...

Hold that thought...

Here's the moment of truth...

Can a runway that rolls towards you, keep you from ever rolling forward?

NOT matching you...actually rolling towards you...so you would actually be carried backwards if you didn't move forward.

Could you take off then, using the same logic, it should be a lot harder, right?

Not only are you not already going forward, or accelerating from a stand still as normal, you have momentum carrying you backwards.

___________________________________-

Can thrust overcome momentum in the opposite direction?

________________________________________

I hope so, its how a retro rocket, etc, works.

_________________________________

Its also how a Jump Jet Lands, etc.

________________________________________-

OK - so we have the principle that thrust from a jet engine can over come actually travelling in the wrong direction.

_____________________________________

We also know that the runway is not going to change that....or the conveyor belt...

As, its the plane's motion relative to the planet, not the the belt, that makes a difference.

The belt is a Red Herring (A diversion for you CF'rs...) wink

The belt merely acts to support the weight of the plane....

The tires merely roll along under the plane...the landing gear supports the plane, the thrust pushes the plane...and the plane moves forward...

Now, when I say forward...I mean across the planet some distance, whatever, a foot, an inch a meter, whatever it is...

The belt just goes faster...even if it went FASTER than the plane's speed...it would be irrelevent...all THAT would do is increase the TIRE'S rotational speed...the attached landing gear would continue, as would te attached plane, to move across the planets surface, further down the belt's length.

_________________________________

One last analogy:

I kneel down next to my tread mill as it rolls along...I have a toy xterra...I put it on the tread mill...and hold it there, with its wheels spinning on the belt...I'm using one finger to hold on the back of the little X, to keep it in one spot on the belt.

Got that...?

One finger on the back of the X, holding it in position against the rolling tread mill belt...

OK...here' where I blow your CF mind...

Ready?

OK - I push my finger against the X a bit more....it can now MOVE AGAINST THE DIRECTION OF THE ROLLING BELT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that POSSIBLE you ask?

OK - its because the thrust from my finger is what's moving the little X...NOT THE LITTLE X'S TIRES.
________________________________________

Instead of a little X, I grab a toy RC plane, and do the same thing...

I use a finger to hold the plane against the on rushing belt, exactly as I did the little X...

The belt rushes along under the plane's tires...and, IT STAYS IN ONE SPOT!!!!!!!!

How is that POSSIBLE you ask?

OK - its because the thrust from my finger is what's moving the little plane...NOT THE LITTLE Plane's TIRES.

laugh

____________________________________

OK -

NOW, I still have the little plane on the tread mill, miraculously able to maintain its position through the magic of rolling tires and thrust from my finger.

I take the remote, and start the engine of the RC plane...the propeller spins, and pulls the plane forward, off of my finger and AWAY...

How is this POSSIBLE, you ask?

OK - its because the thrust from the propeller is what's moving the little plane...NOT THE LITTLE plane's TIRES.

laugh

________________________________-

So my finger can be the thrust...

There isn't a tread mill made that I could not roll my little X forward on by merely applying an external force to the X...

The tread mill CAN'T roll fast enough to keep me from doing it either...at the same speed, or at double the speed of my finger...the little X's tires will just spin faster..

...but, my FINGER will push the little X against the spinning belt.

_______________________________

As a jet engine can provide the same external force to the plane...

...perhaps even MORE force than my finger...

...the real plane will be pushed forward on the INITIALLY NOT spinning belt..MAKING it spin...

...but, just like my finger just keeps pushing the little X further along the tread mill belt...

....he real plane will ALSO be pushed IN THE SAME WAY...along the giant belt.

As the conveyor belt DOES NOT have its OWN ATMOSPHERE...the air that the plane is moving forward through, is the SAME air it would NORMALLY move forward through.

So - as the thrust independently pushes the plane like a giant finger, along the belt...through the air...eventually, the air rushing OVER THE WING, creates enough pressure differential to create lift.

(A wing does not lift the plane, or a bird, etc...by pushing air down...it creates lift by basically making the air on top of the wing take a longer path...which makes it less dense than the air below the wing...so it essentially PULLS the WING UP, rather than pushing the WIND DOWN)

I did see at least one reference to the above misconception, referred to as one reason WHY the conveyor belt would prevent air flow from creating lift...so, of course, that's not going to make any difference...because its not how a wing works, etc.

________________________________________-

sigh.

I HOPE some of this sinks in.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617331 - 29/12/06 02:39 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Mobycat Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Ergo- plane travels 120 KIAS, conveyor goes 120 knots, wheels spin at 240knots until liftoff.
Then it's an infinite acceleration.

The plane is not travelling at 240 knots in air speed (assuming that's what KIAS is). It's travelling at ground speed relative to the conveyor belt. It's not moving in airspeed.

At some point it WILL hit it's limit. Engines don't have an infinite speed.
_________________________
"Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced" - Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist

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#617332 - 29/12/06 02:40 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nicely done, TJ. But I know someone's not going to read the whole thing and say something like "but there's no finger holding the plane in place, stupid!" [Argue]

I thought about becoming a teacher when I retire. I'll probably think about it a little less. [LOL]

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#617333 - 29/12/06 02:47 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]Ergo- plane travels 120 KIAS, conveyor goes 120 knots, wheels spin at 240knots until liftoff.
Then it's an infinite acceleration.

The plane is not travelling at 240 knots in air speed (assuming that's what KIAS is). It's travelling at ground speed relative to the conveyor belt. It's not moving in airspeed.

At some point it WILL hit it's limit. Engines don't have an infinite speed.[/b]
For the LOVE OF GOD! PLEASE!

The air speed has NOTHING to do with the conveyor belt...

Every one HAS to absorb this.

Ground speed of the plane is not different on a conveyor belt, any more than it would be different taking off from an aircraft carrier, or a train, or launched from a B1, etc.

Ground speed is relative to the planet...not things running about under you.

Otherwise...a plane's ground speed would be different if flew over a river ...but it ISN'T.

laugh

A Plane's AIR SPEED DOES change if there's a head wind, or a tail wind...as the AIR its flying through IS the relative baseline.

For ground speed, the relative baseline would be the planet, say by GPS coordinates.

We have GOT TO absorb this if we are to one day have every XOC member know if the damn plane can take off.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617334 - 29/12/06 02:50 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Mobycat:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]Ergo- plane travels 120 KIAS, conveyor goes 120 knots, wheels spin at 240knots until liftoff.
Then it's an infinite acceleration.

The plane is not travelling at 240 knots in air speed (assuming that's what KIAS is). It's travelling at ground speed relative to the conveyor belt. It's not moving in airspeed.

At some point it WILL hit it's limit. Engines don't have an infinite speed.[/b]
I thought you were going home. Short commute, huh? Nice [drink]

You're partially correct, then totally wrong. The plane is travelling at 120 knots indicated arispeed. Therefore, relative to the ground (not on the conveyor) it is travelling at 120 knots (ground speed) at sea level. Relative to the surface of the conveyor, the plane IS TRAVELLING at 240 knots.

Here it is again, as the plane travels:

Airspeed-120 knots

Groundspeed (at sea level in no wind)-120 knots

Speed relative to conveyor surface- 240 knots

Read TJ's post again, thoroughly.

::eta:: Lizz, I'm glad you think so. Thanks for indirectly getting this going.

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#617335 - 29/12/06 02:52 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


TJ, that was your damn longest post to date...

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#617336 - 29/12/06 03:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
18+ Pages of FASCINATING Reading. Really. No, seriously.
Hahaha. 18+ pages of nonsense trying to convince the unconvincible that a plane on a conveyor belt can actually get off the ground.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617337 - 29/12/06 03:09 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
I think all humans CAN apply logic...but its like playing a new sport, or writing with your other hand, for some...it just requires practice.

laugh

Sometimes...its like pointing at where you want your dog to go....trying to tell your dog to go "OVER THERE...The Ducks OVER THERE...Go get the duck!!!"

And the dog just keeps looking at your finger, not where its pointing.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617338 - 29/12/06 03:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Powerguy38 Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1032
Loc: Greensburg, PA
[Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep]
_________________________
ECXC 2K12 Organizer

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#617339 - 29/12/06 03:16 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerguy38:
[Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep] [Sleep]
Of course, some dogs don't even get that there might be a duck, and just fall asleep.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617340 - 29/12/06 03:19 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
sigh...I gotta go home...someone with more time...go through the posters, and sort them by Fly or Can't Fly...I'd like to have a record of who was in which camp so if I have to explain OTHER things later, I can take it into account.

laugh

If a reader, post if you are an F'r (Fly) or a CF'r (Can't Fly).

laugh

Remember, be honest, this is for posterity.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617341 - 29/12/06 03:22 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
No one answered Smith's question...

Is this a smoking or a non-smoking flight?

smile

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#617342 - 29/12/06 03:27 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by RiNkY:
I still think the conveyor could be configured to prevent the plane from going anywhere tho, there's gotta be some way to prevent the damn thing taking off. smile
Attach the plane to another plane with a short length of chain and have both planes attempt to take off in opposite directions....

neither plane will take off
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#617343 - 29/12/06 03:27 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
LOL

I think some people are smoking snakes.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617344 - 29/12/06 03:28 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
No one answered Smith's question...

Is this a smoking or a non-smoking flight?

smile
Neither! The plane's not flying, remember? [Laughing]
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617345 - 29/12/06 03:32 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
If they are serving chicken for dinner, the plane will definitely fly.

If that horible airline vegetable lasagna is on the menu, it will not take off.

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#617346 - 29/12/06 03:43 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Here's another one to ponder

An airplane is on an infinately long Aircraft carrier. As this airplane attempts to take off in one direction, the aircraft carrier moves in the exact same speed in the opposite direction (so that the plane appears to be staying in the same spot to a impartial observer who is not on the aircraft carrier)....

Does the plane take off?
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#617347 - 29/12/06 03:43 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[b]No one answered Smith's question...

Is this a smoking or a non-smoking flight?

smile
Neither! The plane's not flying, remember? [Laughing] [/b]
Not true. The plane is flying while standing still, with snakes on board with people using treadmills on the plane in order for the frictional forces to prevent them from taking off.

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#617348 - 29/12/06 03:48 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockaholic:
Here's another one to ponder

An airplane is on an infinately long Aircraft carrier. As this airplane attempts to take off in one direction, the aircraft carrier moves in the exact same speed in the opposite direction (so that the plane appears to be staying in the same spot to a impartial observer who is not on the aircraft carrier)....

Does the plane take off?
Yeah... The plane takes off.

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#617349 - 29/12/06 04:08 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


[LOL] Man oh man!!! I posted this question not quite expecting this kind of response. It's rather funny that some of you people can't seem to get your mind off the wheels. They are not a determining factor on whether the plane can or cannot fly. Cmon people!! Think!!!

I've said it a few times now....those that said that the plane WILL take off can sleep easy tonight. It will in fact be able to take off.

It doesn't matter if the conveyor is going backwards at 1000mph. It's not pulling against the force of the engines. It's pulling at the wheels. Therefore, the engines will not be effected AT ALL by the conveyor belt causing the plane to eventually get enough speed to take off.

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