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#617550 - 30/12/06 01:55 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunx:
But your next example has definable factors. Traction, the type of along with the weight of your vehicle all come into play and we can determine the best possible way to pull you up the hill because the hill you are trying to drive up is not moving in the opposite direction as your attempt at movement.
Well, since the gravel keeps rolling under my tires no matter how much gas I give them, I pretty much have zero traction. And because the gravel keeps rolling under my tires, the hill may as well me "moving in the opposite direction". The weight of my truck is only a factor in determining whether your winch can pull me up. If your winch is strong enough to pull my truck up, then I should be able to make forward progress, right?
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617551 - 30/12/06 02:00 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
You are then saying that you have no relationship with the ground because if my winch is pulling you up regardless if your traction than you are basically saying that I could be winching you up the hill even if your truck was suspended or hanging off the side of a cliff. You are negating the relationship your truck has with the surface completely.

In the treadmill scenario the relative relationship beteen the surface (the belt) and you (your feet) is the most important factor because the belt is designed to match the speed to maintain the relationship. If you were to be yanked off the treadmill by an external force and your feet LEFT the surface of the treadmill then and only then could you be removed from it.
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#617552 - 30/12/06 02:07 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunx:
You are then saying that you have no relationship with the ground because if my winch is pulling you up regardless if your traction than you are basically saying that I could be winching you up the hill even if your truck was suspended or hanging off the side of a cliff. You are negating the relationship your truck has with the surface completely.
That's PRECISELY the point! We already know that the my truck's forward movement through its tires is negated by the ground's backward movement, so the net is ZERO. The only way for my truck to move FORWARD (in spite of whatever the ground is doing) is to be provided a means of forward propulsion that is not related to the tires or to the ground.

In your treadmill example, you're basically saying that if I place my treadmill on the shoulder of the freeway, and I stick a winch cable to my bike then toss it out so it catches a passing truck, I'd be able to stop that truck dead in its tracks because the treadmill would prevent my bike from leaving the treadmill. That's absurd! I'm not GLUED or BOLTED to the treadmill surface, I'm just traveling on top of it!
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617553 - 30/12/06 02:12 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
I understand what you are saying and agree in your most recent example. But how would it be impacted if you WERE able to continue to maintain your relationship with the treadmill?
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#617554 - 30/12/06 02:16 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
It seems the plane scenario has been abandoned.

Now it's dragging treadmills with the Xterra. [Huh?]

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#617555 - 30/12/06 02:16 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
My relationship with the treadmill is explicitly limited to its ability to speed up and slow down according to my speed. Nothing more. It can't prevent me from exiting it. Sure, it might speed up as I start to leave it, but it can't prevent me from doing so if some force external to the treadmill surface pulls me off.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617556 - 30/12/06 02:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
It seems the plane scenario has been abandoned.

Now it's dragging treadmills with the Xterra. [Huh?]
Hahah. The same principles apply.

Treadmill=conveyor belt
Xterra = external force unrelated to the conveyor belt = jet engines

Just as an Xterra can pull someone running on a treadmill, a jet engine can propel an aircraft to liftoff speed.
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617557 - 30/12/06 02:27 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
socalpunx Offline
Member

Registered: 24/08/01
Posts: 6327
Loc: The land of losers and liberal...
Well crap. I have always maintained that. laugh
_________________________
If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. - Vice President James Danforth "Dan" Quayle

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#617558 - 30/12/06 02:28 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by socalpunx:
Well crap. I have always maintained that. laugh
Troll. [Finger] wink
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617559 - 30/12/06 03:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
It seems the plane scenario has been abandoned.

Now it's dragging treadmills with the Xterra. [Huh?]
This thread's the shit.

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#617560 - 30/12/06 03:34 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by AHTOXA:
This thread's shit.
Yep, you said it laugh
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#617561 - 30/12/06 04:33 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
OK - New tack -

What is making the jets tires turn?

They are not on a motor..they will ONLY turn if the jet MOVES.

The ONLY way the jet CAN move is if the engines PUSH it...

?
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617562 - 30/12/06 04:42 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im gonna try one more analogy today, then I'm gonna start drinking.

Say you've got a nice set of wheels on top of your xterra's rack. They're not geared, just free-spinning. There's a long conveyor lowered lnogitudinally atop the wheels atop your X which will match its speed. It will even put weight on the xterra, say 1000 lbs. Will you be able to drive forward?

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#617563 - 30/12/06 04:44 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Rockaholic Offline
Member

Registered: 18/02/02
Posts: 1632
Loc: Reading, MA
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Im gonna try one more analogy today, then I'm gonna start drinking.

Say you've got a nice set of wheels on top of your xterra's rack. They're not geared, just free-spinning. There's a long conveyor lowered lnogitudinally atop the wheels atop your X which will match its speed. It will even put weight on the xterra, say 1000 lbs. Will you be able to drive forward?
No, there's a tree in front of my Xterra right now, so I can't go forward laugh
_________________________
Jeffrey
I'm just trying to put my tires on the rocks of life.

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#617564 - 30/12/06 04:47 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Same analogy, inverted. Say your Xterra could run just fine upside-down. You've still got the wheels on top of the rack, but now the X is upside-down and the non-geared wheels are supporting its weight (they're well engineered). The free spinning wheels are again on a conveyor. Theres a solid, non-moving surface lowered to meet the actual drive tires atop the now-inverted Xterra with the same 1000 lbs as before. Again, this magic Xterra can run fine upside-down. Will it be able to move itself forward?

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#617565 - 30/12/06 04:53 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
OK - New tack -

What is making the jets tires turn?

They are not on a motor..they will ONLY turn if the jet MOVES.

The ONLY way the jet CAN move is if the engines PUSH it...

?
It's not a new tack.

It's repeating and bringing up the same things over and over again like this is the reason why this thread is 33 pages.

You are only addressing what you wish to address and are ignoring what you can't answer.

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#617566 - 30/12/06 05:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#617567 - 30/12/06 05:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

[b]They would see the plane take off with a little extra wheelspin due to the conveyor belt.
....What do you see as the plane and conveyor are building up speed?

What is the plane's appearance relative to your position?[/b]
Like I said. It will appear as a normal takeoff with little extra wheelspin due to the conveyor belt.

This is a Physics 101 problem. I (and others) have posted the correct answer NUMEROUS times.

Planes are not propelled by wheels! They are propelled by jet engines. The plane WILL gain the necessary airspeed, but its wheels will have to spin faster because of the treadmill.

What is it about this scenario people are having trouble understanding? How much simpler could it be?[/b]
That is part of your problem.

You are assuming it is a simple problem and that there are no complexities involved.

You are also intentionally ignoring the question I have posed to you. Are you afraid that you may find out you are wrong?

A thread doesn't go 500 pages on a physics forum if it is a simple scenario.

Answer my question and we will move along to the next level. As I said previously, you are making premature assumptions of which you may be wrong or may be right. But for some reason you are refusing to explore that possibility.

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#617568 - 30/12/06 05:13 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Madman, he answered your question. He said the plane would roll and take off with a little extra wheelspin.

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#617569 - 30/12/06 05:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
.........you are making premature assumptions of which you may be wrong or may be right. But for some reason you are refusing to explore that possibility.
Let's agree on what assumptions are sensible then. All of the assumptions below apply to virtually all aircraft.

Plane is powered by engines that push air (props or jets)
Plane's speed is measured by a windspeed meter as well as GPS
Plane's wheels spin freely
Wheel friction is negligible when compared to thrust
Newtonian physics apply

If all of the above assumption are true, the plane takes off normally with just a little extra wheelspin.

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#617570 - 30/12/06 05:23 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
Madman, he answered your question. He said the plane would roll and take off with a little extra wheelspin.
The question wasn't answered.

It takes a little time to come up to take off speed.

If he or anyone is acting as the outside observer, I want to know what is seem from start to finish from the perspective of the outside observer. Namely...

-- Does the plane appear stationary from the perspective of the outside observer until takeoff

-- If so.. let's discuss the relationship of the plane in the scenario and the surrounding atmosphere (fluid air) vs. the relation to the surrounding atmosphere for the same plane in a normal conventional takeoff.

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#617571 - 30/12/06 05:29 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[b].........you are making premature assumptions of which you may be wrong or may be right. But for some reason you are refusing to explore that possibility.
Let's agree on what assumptions are sensible then. All of the assumptions below apply to virtually all aircraft.

Plane is powered by engines that push air (props or jets)
Plane's speed is measured by a windspeed meter as well as GPS
Plane's wheels spin freely
Wheel friction is negligible when compared to thrust
Newtonian physics apply

If all of the above assumption are true, the plane takes off normally with just a little extra wheelspin.[/b]
So far what you have written is correct.

However it is NOT the entire picture. You are ignoring the possible difference in the fluid air and atmosphere involving the scenario vs. normal conventional takeoff.

There is more involved in flight than just the engine pushing against the air.

In the time we have been discussing this issue I feel there may be a complex problem or difference that may involve something complex called Computational Fluid Dynamics.

Just you saying the relationship of the plane to the outside air in the scenario and a conventional runway takeoff is the exact same.... doesn't make it so.

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#617572 - 30/12/06 05:29 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by MattyX:
[b]Madman, he answered your question. He said the plane would roll and take off with a little extra wheelspin.
The question wasn't answered.

It takes a little time to come up to take off speed.

If he or anyone is acting as the outside observer, I want to know what is seem from start to finish from the perspective of the outside observer. Namely...

-- Does the plane appear stationary from the perspective of the outside observer until takeoff

-- If so.. let's discuss the relationship of the plane in the scenario and the surrounding atmosphere (fluid air) vs. the relation to the surrounding atmosphere for the same plane in a normal conventional takeoff.[/b]
I have already replied to this twice.

The takeoff appears, to a bystander, completely normal but with some xtra wheelspin due to the conveyor belt.

YES! The plane still moves with respect to the air and with respect to the earth's surface.

And yes! The equation for dynamic friction still is:

F(f) = -uN

u = dynamic coefficient of friction

N = weight of plane

Notice groundspeed isn't a parameter; it's irrevelant if there's a little extra groundspeed (conveyor belt).

This has been proven many times over in this thread. A few posts ago I even quoted a Physics professor on this exact question. What is it you don't believe?

Please tell us where Isaac Newton (and common sense) failed us! [Too much XOC]

Lizz:

34 pages? I think a new name is in order. Are we over 500 posts yet? eek

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#617573 - 30/12/06 05:44 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
Member
*

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

The takeoff appears, to a bystander, completely normal but with some xtra wheelspin due to the conveyor belt.
Quote:
YES! The plane still moves with respect to the air and with respect to the earth's surface.
If you are saying that to an outside observer looking upon the conveyor belt scenario that it would appear like a normal takeoff from start to finish relative from their viewpoint ... then there is a big problem with your perception of this entire discussion.

Your perception of it doesn't seem to be including the fact that the conveyor and the plane's speed have been matched exactly.

Once the conveyor and the plane's speed has been matched, the outside observer will see the plane as standing still whether it is or not.

Do you understand that fact?

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#617574 - 30/12/06 05:51 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

[b]The takeoff appears, to a bystander, completely normal but with some xtra wheelspin due to the conveyor belt.
Quote:
YES! The plane still moves with respect to the air and with respect to the earth's surface.
If you are saying that to an outside observer looking upon the conveyor belt scenario that it would appear like a normal takeoff from start to finish relative from their viewpoint ... then there is a big problem with your perception of this entire discussion.

Your perception of it doesn't seem to be including the fact that the conveyor and the plane's speed have been matched exactly.

Once the conveyor and the plane's speed has been matched, the outside observer will see the plane as standing still whether it is or not.

Do you understand that fact?[/b]
Not true. I answered this on like page 4 or somethin'.

Searchin.....

OK, top of page 7:

Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:
Wrong.

Hypothetical scenario:

t = 0 :

Plane 0 mph
Conveyor 0 mph
Wheels 0 mph

t = 15 :

Plane 60 mph
Conveyor 60 mph
Wheels spin @ 120 mph

t = 55:

Plane 160 mph
Conveyor 160 mph
Wheels spin @ 320 mph

Plane takes off!!
You are confusing the motion of the belt with force. It exerts virtually no force on the plane due to the wheels, which spin freely.

EDIT:

Please take a really close look at wheelspeed before you reply...

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