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#617675 - 31/12/06 07:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
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#617676 - 31/12/06 07:22 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
Uh I believe I just did. They are free wheeling but there is friction. If the belt can match the speed it can go fast enough to keep it from moving.

Now you are just refusing to listen.

But I am used to that with you and our many gps debates.
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#617677 - 31/12/06 07:56 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


For the friction to stop the forward motion of the plane it would not be able to do so by just matching the speed of the plane. It would have to speed up to the point to where the friction would counter the thrust provided by the engines. By then it isn't matching the speed of the plane it is vastly surpassing it.

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#617678 - 31/12/06 08:48 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
At this rate, this thread is going to last until next year! [LOL]

The CF'ers believe that the friction of the tires and wheel bearings will counteract the thrust from the plane's engines, so the plane won't take off. However, the CF'ers also believe that the plane does NOT have any ground speed or airspeed, but this is not true. We have already established that conveyor belt and tire speed are UNRELATED to groundspeed/airspeed, since for a plane bolted to the ground, the tires can turn at any rate they want, but the plane won't move.

In the scenario, the plane MUST be moving down the runway/conveyor belt, otherwise the plane has ZERO speed. The conveyor matches the PLANE's speed, not the plane's TIRE speed.

So, given enough friction to prevent the plane from achieving sufficient airspeed before it reaches the end of the conveyor belt/runway, a plane could be prevented from taking off. However, that plane would be very poorly designed indeed.
_________________________
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#617679 - 01/01/07 03:36 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Paul H Offline
Member

Registered: 23/08/01
Posts: 4757
Loc: Mt. Zion, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Timmah:
For the friction to stop the forward motion of the plane it would not be able to do so by just matching the speed of the plane. It would have to speed up to the point to where the friction would counter the thrust provided by the engines. By then it isn't matching the speed of the plane it is vastly surpassing it.
I disagree. The belt will do whatever it takes to match the speed. Doesn't say it is equal just says it can go fast enough to match. If that is far faster than the speed of the wheels to create enough resistance then I see that as what the question states.
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#617680 - 01/01/07 05:06 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
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Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Will-flyers, I challenge you. Read this entire post and tell me why it's wrong.

It's a given that the tires are mounted on freewheeling, unpowered wheels. Still, something has to happen for any wheeled craft or vehicle to move.

For our purposes, let's define "roll" as rotation over stationary ground, resulting in movement. "Movement" means covering a given distance. Agree? Good.

For an aircraft at rest on the ground with the landing gear down, how does any kind of propelling force - a tow tractor, people pushing, engine power, or a downhill slope as examples - become forward motion? How does the plane itself accelerate forward? Move from point A to point B? How does ANY FORCE applied to the plane result in forward movement?

One thing must happen for the plane to move. The tires must roll. It doesn't matter how that propelling force is applied but for that aircraft to move forward, the tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, must roll. That's why we need brakes and wheel chocks, right?

What happens when the tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, roll? The plane moves along the ground. This is, IMHO, one missing link for the WFers - the rolling tires only travel forward because the ground is stationary. That distance, as we know, is a certain amount per tire rotation depending on their size.

But when the belt is added, the ground under the plane is in effect moving in the opposite direction. Forward movement is no longer the result of applying any kind of propelling force because...why?

The tires are no longer rolling along the stationary ground, they're rotating in place. And since the freewheeling, unpowered wheels they're mounted upon are on an axle attached to the plane, if the tires are not moving forward, neither is the plane.

And guess what? That pesky friction? It's WFer missing link #2. You don't need enough to stop the plane, you only need enough to make the tires rotate. That's why the "perfect frictionless ice" scenario works, because the need for the tires to roll is effectively removed because there's not enough friction to make them rotate.

The plane would fly IF the belt was a constant speed less than the plane can attain or IF the belt did not speed up as power was applied to the aircraft's engines. In the scenario as presented, the aircraft's tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, will merely rotate faster in place as thrust is applied but the plane will not move forward.

That's as simply as I can state my opinion. If it works for you, great. If not, that's great too.

Happy New Year!

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#617681 - 01/01/07 05:11 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


it mentioned...

"conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction)."

hmm exact same... must not me fast enough to counter thrust. 1000 MPH conveyor to counter a 10 MPH thrust does to mean equal speed does it? Doesn't say anything about stopping movement just matching speeds.

If you change the senerio, no the plane doesn't fly if thrust is negated by friction as stated numerous times before.

If you follow the scenerio then the plane flys without much additional effort.

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#617682 - 01/01/07 05:28 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:


But when the belt is added, the ground under the plane is in effect moving in the opposite direction. Forward movement is no longer the result of applying any kind of propelling force because...why?

The tires are no longer rolling along the stationary ground, they're rotating in place. And since the freewheeling, unpowered wheels they're mounted upon are on an axle attached to the plane, if the tires are not moving forward, neither is the plane.
You're logic is flawed here. The wheels rotating would stop nothing. The thrust provided by the engine is not countered by the conveyor because the air isn't being affected by the conveyor's motion.


The plane would fly IF the belt was a constant speed less than the plane can attain or IF the belt did not speed up as power was applied to the aircraft's engines. In the scenario as presented, the aircraft's tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, will merely rotate faster [b]in place
as thrust is applied but the plane will not move forward.[/b]

Flawed as well. As long as thrust is greater than friction the plane flys.

The engines are providing an external force outside of the conveyors control. The wheels spinning (as long as they are spinning) would not affect the thrust provided by the engine. As long as thrust > friction.

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#617683 - 01/01/07 06:45 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
You must have missed the part about it not mattering where the propelling force comes from. If the tires don't roll ALONG the ground, just rotate over the belt, the plane won't move. If you don't get that, forget it.

You're never going to agree with my logic and I sure don't agree with yours.

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#617684 - 01/01/07 06:58 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Smith Offline
Member

Registered: 19/07/01
Posts: 2032
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Who's the asshole who started this thread? mad

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#617685 - 01/01/07 08:10 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Blue, in your "challenge" post you seem to be hung up on creating some number of wheel revolutions being the key to forward movement of an aircraft.

Actually, if you get in a plane and lock the wheels up (create more friction with the ground) and power up enough (not all that difficult) the thrust will still overcome the friction of the tires on plavement and the plane will move forward. Not very smoothly, but it will move forward.

It does matter where the propelling force comes from, because the propelling force (air) is not affected at all by the conveyor.

OK, some punk kid threw their skateboard at you. How much pressure must you apply longitudinally to the BOTTOM OF THE WHEELS to stop it?

Well, golly, Wilbur. If I can only touch the bottom of the wheels then the wheels are just gonna spin and the skateberd's gonna hit me smack 'tween the eyes.

Please, blue. Open your mind a little and accept that aircraft can use the force of air to overcome minimal friction (as the wheels' friction is minimal, even on a conveyor) to move forward and create lift. They do it every day, and if they didn't I'd be out of work.

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#617686 - 01/01/07 08:38 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Now, Blue, you made me read your entire post. I ask the same of you and all you non-believers...

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
For our purposes, let's define "roll" as rotation over stationary ground, resulting in movement. "Movement" means covering a given distance. Agree? Good.
You're WRONG! Roll is defined as moving along a surface by revolving or turning over. That surface doesn't have to be stationary as described in the convyor belt scenario.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
For an aircraft at rest on the ground with the landing gear down, how does [b]any kind of propelling force - a tow tractor, people pushing, engine power, or a downhill slope as examples - become forward motion? How does the plane itself accelerate forward? Move from point A to point B? How does ANY FORCE applied to the plane result in forward movement?[/b]
Are you serious? Have you taken ANY kind of physics classes at all?!?

To ALL of your questions here...There is a force being applied to propell the airplane forward. It is an outside source, but that source is great enough to be able to move the airplane from point A to point B.

Let's review Newton's three laws of physics. They will disprove your entire statement:

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
One thing must happen for the plane to move. The tires must roll. It doesn't matter how that propelling force is applied but for that aircraft to move forward, the tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, [b]must roll. That's why we need brakes and wheel chocks, right?[/b]
You don't seem to understand...it DOES matter what the propelling force is. There are two forces at action here....the force that the conveyor is putting on the wheels, and the force the engine is creating. The ONLY THING that will work against the engines is the air itself. UNLESS the engine is resting on the conveyor belt with no wheels below it. Then, the conveyor is acting on the engine itself because of the downward force of gravity applied to the engine to push it directly into the conveyor belt. The wheels are there to take that force off of the engine so the engine will work independantly of the wheels.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
What happens when the tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, roll? The plane moves along the ground. This is, IMHO, one missing link for the WFers - the rolling tires only travel forward because [b]the ground is stationary. That distance, as we know, is a certain amount per tire rotation depending on their size.

But when the belt is added, the ground under the plane is in effect moving in the opposite direction. Forward movement is no longer the result of applying any kind of propelling force because...why?
/[qb]

Because the wheels are not the propelling force...the ENGINES are!!! Simple physics!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
[QB]The tires are no longer rolling along the stationary ground, they're rotating in place. And since the freewheeling, unpowered wheels they're mounted upon are on an axle attached to the plane, if the tires are not moving forward, neither is the plane.[/b]
See, THIS is where all you that say it can't fly are being hung up. The wheels and tires are not doing the propelling. The original statement states that the conveyor is matching the plane's speed. Now, for it to match the plane's speed, it's going to make the wheels spin at twice the plane's speed in the opposite direction. Thing is, the wheels are assumed to be nearly frictionless due to the ball bearings. How in the hell is a conveyor belt going to stop the wheels if they can ALWAYS travel MUCH faster than what the plane can travel? If the wheels are travelling at 10x the speed of the airplane, the airplane will STILL MOVE FORWARD because the ENGINES DON'T HAVE ANY FORCE ACTING ON THEM!!! THE WHEELS HAVE FORCE ACTING ON THEM.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
And guess what? That pesky friction? It's WFer missing link #2. [b]You don't need enough to stop the plane, you only need enough to make the tires rotate. That's why the "perfect frictionless ice" scenario works, because the need for the tires to roll is effectively removed because there's not enough friction to make them rotate.[/b]
The bearings are there to provide a nearly frictionless surface. Similar to what the ice would produce.

Think of this.....the friction created by the wheels is also being created by the conveyor if we presume that the conveyor is on a similar system of wheels and bearings. If this is the case, how will the conveyor get enough speed in the opposite direction to stop the forward momentum of the airplane? By focusing so much on the friction between the wheels and the conveyor, all you "Can't Flyers" are digging yourselves deeper into this hole....

The friction is something that needs to be taken out of this entire discussion, or it can open an entirely new can of worms because it wouldn't matter then....the belt's bearings would seize and burn up causing the conveyor belt to stop allowing the plane to take off wink

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
The plane would fly IF the belt was a constant speed less than the plane can attain or IF the belt did not speed up as power was applied to the aircraft's engines. In the scenario as presented, the aircraft's tires, mounted on their freewheeling, unpowered wheels, will merely rotate faster [b]in place as thrust is applied but the plane will not move forward.[/b]
You just stated it right here why the plane WOULD fly. The wheels can travel infinately faster than what the engines can produce. They only travel as fast as the plane is moving. HOWEVER, they can travel at 1000000000x faster than what the thrust can produce. so, it really doesn't matter how fast the conveyor is moving. The engines are still pulling the plane forward causing the wheels to just travel that much faster.

In this scenario, the wheels will travel as fast as the conveyor will make them, not as the engines will. That's because there are multiple forces at work here (GOD, I'm starting to sound like a broken record!!!) The forces applied between the conveyor belt and the wheels are comp[letely independant of the forces applied between the engine and the air!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Happy New Year!
Right back at ya!!!

Also, do me a favor. Do a Google search for "airplane on conveyor belt" 99% of the returned hits are going to chastise all the non believers because they are associating the airplane to a car because of the wheels. In just about all the hits, they will describe exactly what the "flyers" have been trying to describe to you guys....The conveyor is working on the wheels, not on the engines. [Wave]

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#617687 - 01/01/07 08:39 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
You must have missed the part about it not mattering where the propelling force comes from. If the tires don't roll ALONG the ground, just rotate over the belt, the plane won't move. If you don't get that, forget it.

You're never going to agree with my logic and I sure don't agree with yours.
This only works if the wheels are what are doing the propelling. If there is another force acting on the object sitting on the wheels, the conveyor won't affect that at all!! See my above post ^^^^

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#617688 - 01/01/07 08:43 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
You must have missed the part about it not mattering where the propelling force comes from. If the tires don't roll ALONG the ground, just rotate over the belt, the plane won't move. If you don't get that, forget it.

You're never going to agree with my logic and I sure don't agree with yours.
This isn't about agreeing.

This is about whether or not you folks have the cognitive abilities to understand why the correct answer is correct.

If the wheels roll, what is holding the plane back? Nothing! The wheels just spin faster if there's a belt. The plane still moves with respect to the earth as well as the atmosphere. Please explain how you are refuting the physics above. [Freak]

Quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Who's the asshole who started this thread? mad
It's not Lizz's fault, it's Hawk's fault!!!

Happy new year, Hawk! [Finger] [Finger] [Too much XOC]

...

How is it that people who can't understand a high-school physics free-body diagram have deemed themselves more qualified than this guy:

Quote:
If I properly understand your travelator, the travelator moves at
exactly the speed of the airplane, but in the opposite
direction. This means the wheels rotate twice as fast as they would
on a normal runway and nothing else is different. Right?

In that case, I claim the plane would take off normally except that
the wheels would be rotating twice as fast as normally. Since the
frictional force is, as you say, f=uR, the frictional force will be
exactly the same in the two cases since v does not appear in the
equation for the frictional force. In other words, the frictional
force is independent of the speed. In that case the forces on the
plane are exactly the same whether the travelator is operating or
not and so the plane takes off the same way in the two cases.

-Dick Plano, Professor of Physics emeritus, Rutgers University

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#617689 - 01/01/07 08:49 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by JeffW:

Quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
[b]Who's the asshole who started this thread? mad
It's not Lizz's fault, it's Hawk's fault!!!

Happy new year, Hawk! [Finger] [Finger] [Too much XOC] [/b]
And it's also me that's trying to put an end to it [Finger] Not my fault we have a bunch of people here that can't seem to grasp the basic concepts of physics :rolleyes:

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#617690 - 01/01/07 09:54 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Hey -

CF argument:

Me and my freind are wearing roller skates...

I lay on my back, stick my feet up, and my freind climbs up, and stands on my skate wheels with her skate wheels.

Now - my skate wheels, and hers, will ROTATE at EXACTLY the same speed, if they roll at all...as they are in essence interacting like contact gears, or a tread mill, etc.

No matter HOW FAST my wheels rotate, hers will rotate EXACTLY at the same speed, MATCHING my wheel's speed....AND mine will match HERS.

OK, she's up there...and, CAN NOT move...because, if she rolls forward, mine will roll backwards the EXACT SAME AMOUNT.

My OTHER freind, named Jet, comes up behind her, and pushes her from behind.

eek

She of course DOES NOT MOVE, because, no mater how fast he pushes her...my wheels will rotate just as fast as her's will.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617691 - 01/01/07 10:27 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry TJ-I think that your thoughts are wrong. Unless you guys are in a vacuum. You are for getting about friction. I think? LOL. Happy New Years.

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#617692 - 01/01/07 10:30 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


TJ, that made no sense at all....

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#617693 - 01/01/07 10:56 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
OF COURSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!

I was calling this the CF Argument.

:rolleyes:

Because...its what they are saying would be the case.

laugh

And

It NOT wrong because I forgot about friction...

...its wrong because it doesn't recognize that the important thing about moving forward , was that it was NOT limited by the wheels' rotational speed, and was in fact entirely due to the thrust from behind.

laugh

I was trying for a visual that illustrated the difference between MOVING and wheel speed/rotational speed.

The CF's keep thinking that as long as the tread mill speed up...you could not move....for getting that the tread mill speed was irrelevent (A red herring).

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617694 - 01/01/07 11:01 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Rickster43 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 3505
Loc: San Antonio,Texas
Hey Absolutely FabuLizz, Why do you keep on changing the name of the Topic so many times....makes no sense...I think this Topic needs to be Deleted completly, Moderators !!!
_________________________
Your Personal CADD Monkey...

"The Universe without Music would be Madness"...

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#617695 - 01/01/07 11:05 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Rickster43:
Hey Absolutely FabuLizz, Why do you keep on changing the name of the Topic so many times....makes no sense
Actually, I think it's kinda funny. It's her contribution to this thread. laugh

PS. Happy New Year, everyone! Anyone hung over? :p
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617696 - 01/01/07 11:05 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
I think this thread is one of the best off topic threads ever.

We had a civil discussion that went on for days, w/o getting out of hand, and w/o hurting anyone.

We disagreed on things...and kept going, until it seems, finally, all saw the light, slapped their foreheads, and came to a decision.

That's very rare on XOC...but, this is proof that it can happen.

Its a testament to hope for humanity...for if a 40+ page thread on XOC can exist w/o a fight...we may one day have peace in the middle east.

laugh

Happy New Year Every One!!!!

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617697 - 01/01/07 11:35 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've enjoyed this thread. The responses-some wrong, have been very interesting to read. I've spoken to a couple aviators and they give different responses as well.

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#617698 - 01/01/07 12:10 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#617699 - 01/01/07 12:18 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Hmmm...we CFers seem to be in the minority.

At this point I'm going to let go of this. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'm open-minded enough to consider the possibility and to think on it some more. It still doesn't make sense to me, and despite what some of you seem to think, I'm a fairly intelligent person with a long background in aviation.

In the end, being hypothetical and meaningless in the big picture of life, it doesn't matter anyway, and if I'm wrong...well, again despite what some people seem to think, being wrong isn't the end of the world.

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