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#617775 - 02/01/07 09:31 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
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JayZ - I was actually the one that originally assumed about a 20% thrust vs. normal force. It seemed about right when taking a quick look at thrusts of several large aircraft. That said, I could be totally wrong.

I said what I needed to say and posted a FBD back on page 8, and was done, but came back to make sure to clarify that I said it was 20%, not JeffW. Jeff just happens to be using the FBD in his arquement as well.

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#617776 - 02/01/07 09:32 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
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#617777 - 02/01/07 09:38 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Again...the aerodynamics issues are Red Herring.

laugh

The ONLY thing that really matters here is that the tires can't roll w/o moving along the conveyor belt...as in getting closer to one end of the belt....

...Because the conveyor belt only moves when the plane moves...and the tires only turn when the belt slips/rolls beneath them...

...making them turn.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

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#617778 - 02/01/07 09:39 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
PS- The above seems irrelevant UNTIL you understand it.

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617779 - 02/01/07 09:47 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]CF crowd (apparently only Madman + BlueSky + Mike in NRH):

Please answer the following questions:

1) How is an airplane's speed measured?

a. Groundspeed
b. Airspeed
c. Other (specify)
The hypothetical scenario does not specify the type of speed. Hence, a large reason the scenario is a conundrum.[/b]
In the event something is not specified, a logical assumption should be made. Speed means speed and is not dictated by wheelspin, it is dictated by movement with respect to the earth's surface. I have listed two methods of measurement that make sense.
So far, nobody has been able to explain why they think Isaac Newton was wrong and the plane can't move.

All I hear is people going back and forth over sidenotes instead of coming to terms with the physical realities here.

There is only one correct answer to the problem. I recommend trying to understand the simple solution instead of wandering around in a fog of superstition.

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#617780 - 02/01/07 09:49 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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A fog of Sugar Free Red Bull maybe?

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617781 - 02/01/07 09:55 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by JayZ:
....

so back to the original problem, any thrust created by the plane to move it forward is counteracted by the conveyor, therefore there is no forward motion, therefore the plane does not fly.

jeffw, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you trust the aerospace engineer? i'm sure that he has taken several physics courses past the grade 9 level. are you an engineer yourself?
That's not my fbd, it's Branden's. I posted it becaise I deemed it useful.

But a 3D fbd isn't even necessary in this case. We have a certain airspeed required for takeoff. So the question is simply whether the wheels roll and whether there is thrust. As long as the wheels roll and we have thrust, the plane will achieve the required airspeed for take-off.

This should be simple enough to understand once you thoroughly read the post you are commenting on.

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#617782 - 02/01/07 10:12 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

Answer my post you damn yankee.
I'll give it a shot rebel. [Freak]

Quote:
Originally posted by porsche996:

The thrust of the engines causes the wheel axles to move forward. This axle movement causes the wheels to spin.

The conveyor belt causes the wheels to spin about the axles.

The conveyor belt can not resist movement of the wheel axles. In order for the plane to NOT take off, the conveyor belt MUST prevent movement of the wheel axles.
In order for the plane to NOT take off, all that is required is an insufficient amount of air moving over the wings. Our scenario doesn't include atmospheric conditions such as headwinds.

Quote:
Therefore the plane will still accelerate as normal, and will take off upon reaching takeoff velocity.

There is nothing "flawed" about this logic. And I actually challenge any of the "can't fly" crowd to refute this post with proof. Good luck...

PS: You're going to need to prove that the conveyor belt CAN move the axles of an aircraft in order for your conclustion that it can't take off to be correct. There is no way the conveyor belt can move the axle as long as the tires are allowed to spin freely about the axle. None. No way. It's not physically possible. Not in theory, not in a lab, and not in the real world.

And once you realize the conveyor belt can not move the axles, then you *should* be able to realize that means the plane can take off, becaues the motion of the conveyor can not counteract the motion caused by the aircraft engines. Only 1 force in the example has any effect on the axles of the plane, and that's the engines of the plane. There is no counter-force to prevent the movement of the aircraft. The plane takes off.
So now instead of talking about the wheels it's the axles. I don't even know why you are now focusing on the axles because we already know the wheels are free spinning.

You are also asking other people for proof of this and that, yet you have provided no proof that the plane in this scenario will move forward in relation to the atmosphere fast enough to gain lift.

Moving forward is one thing. Moving forward fast enough in relation to the atmosphere is what is required for lift.

On both sides of the argument, assumptions are being made. That is why I say it is a conundrum the way it is worded.

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#617783 - 02/01/07 10:18 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Does this help?

Think of an airplane as two independant entities:

The airframe, and the rolling gear.

Any and all forces generated by a conveyor in an attempt to affect the perceived forward progress of the airframe will instead be enacted upon the rolling gear only.

The force the conveyor is trying to enact upon the airframe is lost due to the free-flowing wheels. The force is dissipated through the wheels, and never reaches the airframe.

The airframe, in essence, does not know what the conveyor belt is trying to do, and doesn't care.
I've been trying to get this point across, but the "CF" people can't seem to grasp it.

The conveyor belt exerts ALL of it's force on the wheels, NOT the engines. The only thing exerting a horizontal force on the engines is the air. Therefore, the conveyor will have 0 effect on the engines thus causing the engines to pull the airplane forward while the wheels spin at an unGodly rate of speed. This forward momentum will eventually give the airplane the needed lift to be able to take off.

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#617784 - 02/01/07 10:19 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
I think people don't have time to read all this...they just think they've solved it, read a few of the posts, and post their reply.

Its hard to imagine taking the time to absorb the important concepts...and missing it.

My wife and kids got it figured out in about 30 seconds.

I asked the receptionist, (1 minute 23 seconds to solve) who replied she had NO idea what made a jet move...I told her it sucked air in one end, added fuel, and blew hot exhaust out the back to push the plane forward...

She said..."I guess it would go forward like a balloon, when you let go of a ballon knot".

I said "What would the conveyor do to it?"

She said "Nothing I guess, the conveyor would just spin the tires - how would that stop the plane from moving?"

laugh
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617785 - 02/01/07 10:36 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

The conveyor belt exerts ALL of it's force on the wheels, NOT the engines. The only thing exerting a horizontal force on the engines is the air. Therefore, the conveyor will have 0 effect on the engines thus causing the engines to pull the airplane forward while the wheels spin at an unGodly rate of speed. This forward momentum will eventually give the airplane the needed lift to be able to take off.
The way the scenario is worded, it can easily be said you are making an assumption.

Let me ask you a further question.....

The scenario does not specify the length of our conveyor belt runway. How long would such a runway have to be in order for the plane to gain enough forward motion needed for lift?

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#617786 - 02/01/07 10:49 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

[b]The conveyor belt exerts ALL of it's force on the wheels, NOT the engines. The only thing exerting a horizontal force on the engines is the air. Therefore, the conveyor will have 0 effect on the engines thus causing the engines to pull the airplane forward while the wheels spin at an unGodly rate of speed. This forward momentum will eventually give the airplane the needed lift to be able to take off.
The way the scenario is worded, it can easily be said you are making an assumption.

Let me ask you a further question.....

The scenario does not specify the length of our conveyor belt runway. How long would such a runway have to be in order for the plane to gain enough forward motion needed for lift?[/b]
Huh?!? That's the basic physics of flight. How is it an assumption?

The runway wouldn't have to be much longer than a standard runway. Once the initial friction between the wheels and the belt is overcome, the plane will accelerate down the "runway" normally.

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#617787 - 02/01/07 10:50 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
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Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:
[b]CF crowd (apparently only Madman + BlueSky + Mike in NRH):

Please answer the following questions:

1) How is an airplane's speed measured?

a. Groundspeed
b. Airspeed
c. Other (specify)
The hypothetical scenario does not specify the type of speed. Hence, a large reason the scenario is a conundrum.[/b]
NYM- The hypothetical scenario also doesn't say what type of plane it is, what the runway is made of, or whether there's any type of wind. For all we know, the plane is a Harrier Jump Jet, there's a 100mph headwind, and the runway is made of glass!

Your response completely avoids the question.

Please tell me the assumptions you are making about the scenario, then answer the question: How is an airplane's speed measured? (You may use google to find your answer.)
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617788 - 02/01/07 10:56 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Mad -

I think that the context of the scenario is to see if people could determine the relevance of the concept of the tread mill as a runway...not to nit pick over "What if a terrorist were to fire a RPG, or what if the conveyor belt was too short, or what if the conveyor frightened the pilot", etc.

laugh

Reading the given scenario...it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if the conveyor is the runway, that it is, other than being a tread mill, ....it is normal...

IE: Straight and flat, as opposed to ski slope shaped, or mountain road shaped, too short, with a giant wall across the end, etc.

The ONLY variable from a normal runway seems to be that it is a conveyor belt.

laugh

Same with the plane...it should be assumed that it is not a helicopter, or a thing used to shave wood, etc.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617789 - 02/01/07 10:58 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
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Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction).

Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
Mad -

I think that the context of the scenario is to see if people could determine the relevance of the concept of the tread mill as a runway...not to nit pick over "What if a terrorist were to fire a RPG, or what if the conveyor belt was too short, or what if the conveyor frightened the pilot", etc.

laugh

Reading the given scenario...it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if the conveyor is the runway, that it is, other than being a tread mill, ....it is normal...

IE: Straight and flat, as opposed to ski slope shaped, or mountain road shaped, too short, with a giant wall across the end, etc.

The ONLY variable from a normal runway seems to be that it is a conveyor belt.

laugh

Same with the plane...it should be assumed that it is not a helicopter, or a thing used to shave wood, etc.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617790 - 02/01/07 11:37 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by XPLORx4:

NYM- The hypothetical scenario also doesn't say what type of plane it is, what the runway is made of, or whether there's any type of wind. For all we know, the plane is a Harrier Jump Jet, there's a 100mph headwind, and the runway is made of glass!

Your response completely avoids the question.

Please tell me the assumptions you are making about the scenario, then answer the question: How is an airplane's speed measured? (You may use google to find your answer.)
I'm trying to avoid making any assumptions. That is why I say there is no correct answer the way the scenario is worded. There isn't enough information given, so it is almost impossible to not make some assumptions.

I've already discussed airspeed and relative velocity on page 36. Here is the link....

Link to post...

The scenario says the belt matches the plane's speed. It doesn't say whether it is the groundspeed or airspeed.

The one assumption I think we all can make is that the wind speed is zero.

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#617791 - 02/01/07 11:41 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
[QB]
Moving forward is one thing. Moving forward fast enough in relation to the atmosphere is what is required for lift.[QB]
Once you realize the plane can move forward, then surely you can realize that it will accelerate as more throttle is added, as it would in a normal takeoff, and once it reaches its takeoff speed, it WILL takeoff.

What you're arguing is that the conveyor belt will prevent the axles (and in effect, the aircraft since they're attached rigidly to the axles) from moving. If the wheels spin freely, as you admit to realizing, then the belt in no way, shape, or form, can have ANY force on the axles, and in effect, in no way, shape, or form can have ANY effect on the plane that's rigidly attached to the axles. So the force of the engines is NEVER counteracted by the conveyor belt, and the plane acclerates right on down the runway and takes off...

If the plane can move an inch, then it WILL take off once it reaches the speed necessary. Your whole theory that the plane won't take off means you think the plane CAN NOT MOVE AT ALL... But it can. The belt spins the tires about the axle; it does not generate any horizontal force on the axles. Therefore, the belt does not counteract the horizontal force being supplied by the engines which are rigidly attached to the plane which is rigidly attached the axles... I only brought up the axles because the CF'ers obviously can't grasp the fact that the axles/plane/engine are 1 rigid object.

I was trying to pick something close to the tires that the weaker minds could get a grasp on. Evidently, I can't make this any easier for you to understand, so you WILL be going through life without grasping the concept. In a way, I felt sorry for you. But then I realized you're from New York, and frankly, I don't give a damn.

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#617792 - 02/01/07 11:50 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
XPLORx4 Offline
Member

Registered: 23/03/01
Posts: 1906
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
The scenario says the belt matches the plane's speed. It doesn't say whether it is the groundspeed or airspeed.

The one assumption I think we all can make is that the wind speed is zero.
NYM- OK, we can all agree that windspeed = 0.

Do you make any assumptions about what kind of plane we're talking about? Is it a Harrier? Is it a 737? A Cessna? How about a WWI biplane?

If you can't make any assumptions, then your answer to the question "Can the plane take off" must be: "I cannot answer without more information," and not "The plane won't take off."
_________________________
4x4 in uppercase is $X$!!!
1997 R50: VG33E/RE4R01A/TX10/3.7/R200A/ARB/4.636/H233B/ARB/4.636/321150R15

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#617793 - 02/01/07 11:59 AM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
PartsPeddler Offline
Member

Registered: 13/11/00
Posts: 267
Loc: Richardson (Dallas), Texas, US...
If the conveyor belt negates the forward movement of the aircraft you'll be unable to produce air speed for lift.

Without appropriate air speed an aircraft can not acheive enough lift to take off.

What am I missing?

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#617794 - 02/01/07 12:02 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Samueul Offline
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Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
If the wind speed is 0 the plane cannot take off as there will be no lift, but a plane doesn't really need it's wheels to generate wind speed or lift. The THRUST of it's propeller or jets and the plane's weight to wing span ratio determines it's minimum lift. If you have a plane that is parked on a runway and you put a big enough fan in front of it, it will "lift" even if it's not moving "forward" on its wheels. If the plane is powerful enough to break the friction barrier of the belt it will fly no matter how fast backwards the belt moves. The only way to keep it down would be to weigh it down enough so that the weight to wing span ratio is off.
_________________________
Must stay away from political/religious debates. Must stay away........

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#617795 - 02/01/07 12:03 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by NY Madman:
The scenario says the belt matches the plane's speed. It doesn't say whether it is the groundspeed or airspeed.

The one assumption I think we all can make is that the wind speed is zero.
Umm, if you're saying we can make the assumption that wind speed is zero, then when the plane is on the ground, GROUND SPEED = AIR SPEED... So there is no reason to "assume" what we're talking about...

Wheel spinning is NOT a measurement of speed. The speed of any vehicle on wheels is a FUNCTION OF THE WHEEL SPIN, and NOT the wheel spin. For proof, how do you convert wheel spin into speed? You have to take the radius of the wheel, do some math, and you can convert the spinning revolutions per second into miles per hour of horizontal movement. The revs per second are NOT speed!!! The CF'ers do not realize this... If tires spinning always equaled the speed of movement of the vehicle, then a) you could never get stuck in mud because if your tires were spinning, you'd be moving, and b) there would be no need to adjust for larger/smaller tire sizes for your speedo...

Here's the math for those that can actually follow along. For those that can't, please keep believing the plane won't take off...

A wheel's axle moves 1 ft/s horizontally. What is the radius & revolution per second required to match?

You've got two unknowns. Let's simplify by saying the Circumference of the wheel is 1', so the revolutions per second = 1 rev/s, as the full circumfernce would travel the 1' horizontal distance the axle moves.

So, C=2*pi*r. C is 1 rev/s. Solving for r and you've got a wheel radius of 0.5pi, or 1.57'.

Ok, so now this tire is spinning at the EXACT same speed as the axle/tire combination is moving horizonatally.

But what if we don't want a 1.57' tire. What if we want a 2' tire? Then what happens.

Back-solving for C=2*pi*r, and you have a circumference of 4pi, or 12.57'.

For each revolution of the tire, the axle would move horizonatlly 12.57', so, if the axle moves only 1', the tire rotated only 1/12.57 = .08 revolutions.

So, the axle is moving at 1 ft/s. The tire is rotating at only 0.08 rev/s.

Oops. The tire's rotation speed and the horizontal movement are NOT the same... Which proves that unless a couple initial conditions are absolutely met, the wheel does NOT spin around an axle at the same rate the axle moves horizontally... That makes since, considering when you're doing a burn-out, stuck in mud, etc., your tires are spinning like mad, but the axles are only moving a little, if at all.

So what's this all mean to the CF'ers? It means 1) they got lost a long time ago as soon as reason entered the conversation, and 2) even with the math in front of their face, they still aren't going to believe a tire can rotate independent of the axle movement.

Which is a shame, 'cause I did a pretty cool burnout on my motorcycle yesterday, and yet the bike didn't move an inch.... If I lived in the CF'ers world, that wouldn't have been possible.

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#617796 - 02/01/07 12:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by PartsPeddler:
If the conveyor belt negates the forward movement of the aircraft you'll be unable to produce air speed for lift.

Without appropriate air speed an aircraft can not acheive enough lift to take off.

What am I missing?
You're missing that the belt can only spin the tires. It can not effect the motion of what the tires are attached to. Therefore it can not keep the plane from moving down the runway as originally scheduled, acheiving the lift it needs, and flying its merry little way to Vegas, feeling lucky 'cause he beat the odds...

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#617797 - 02/01/07 12:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
Samueul Offline
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Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
_________________________
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#617798 - 02/01/07 12:05 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Yeah, Mad, we're pointing at the duck, and you are looking at our fingers.

laugh

I know that once the real issue sinks in, and you get it...you'll wonder how you missed it...but, you are missing the point of the question.

Its a runway, and a plane...in a problem such as this...the variables mentioned are the one's to consider.

Saying there is not enough information is a cop out...as there IS enough information, as long as you follow the presented given.

Otherwise, if the quesiton were re-worded to read:

There is a plane on the runway, a girl in the plane blows her nose, can the plane take off?

If you do it your way...the answer is ALWAYS that there is insufficient information...as what if her blowing was a signal for terrorists to blow up the plane? What if the plane had no gas?

etc.

Is 2=2 equal to 4?

Well, what if its 2 elephants, plus 2 lions, equal 4 zebras?

etc.

The problem assumes that we understand that we're testing the concept of the tread mill preventing the take off......

Let's say you just can not answer that type of brain teaser...as you must say things like:

"What if the plane could not fly any way, they didn't say if it has wings, or it does, but maybe they were not designed right, or maybe the pilot is dead, or maybe the stewardess is having trouble inflating the autopilot..."

etc.

OK, fine...no question ever posed has an answer, as there will never be eough information.

You can stop if that's the case, as there are no scenarios that will ever work for you.

For people who CAN solve problems like this...its STILL all about FINALLY understanding that the speed is the speed...as in gps coordinate to gps coordinate, in a given time....because that's what speed IS.

The conveyor belt is designed to confuse you...its a red herring.

Your speed on a tread mill is zero...your EQUIVALENT speed is what ever the speedometer says.

If you are on a tread mill, and I yank you forward with a rope...NO MATTER HOW FAST THE TREAD MILL BELT GOES...you WILL move forward....by the distance the rope pulled you.

If that's unclear...you may NEVER get it.
_________________________
- TJ

2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes....

Friends don't let friends drive stock.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif

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#617799 - 02/01/07 12:11 PM Re: Know that if you do not post in this thread today the human race may cease to exist
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Damn.

Lizz, I accidentally deleted the pics you sent me last night.

Could you resend?

By the way: was that thing acrylic or glass?

Either way, applause applause applause!
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