Wow-it took me over an hour late last night to read all these pages. Then I forgot what the post was about. If I have repeated any one else's post-it was not done deliberately. My two cents. Ground speed and air speed are not independent of each other. Air speed is created by thrust. Thrust in this case is created by the engines. Not the spinning wheels. If you take a balloon, and blow it up-then release it. It will essentially fly away until it has no more foreword thrust (escaping air). If that same balloon is let go into a head wind of equal thrust/speed-the balloon will stay where it is....mid air. Not counting on how un-aerodynamic a balloon is. Still flying-but going no where. If the thrust of the plane going foreword is less then the treadmills speed, then the plane will go backward. If the thrust is greater, the plane will fly away. If the thrust is equal to the tread mill-the plane will still fly. But will not take off as quickly because ground speed and air speed is the same. But the plane will fly away. Do you guys remember the old WWII Naval pictures of naval aircraft taking off from carriers? This was before catapults. The carriers would turn into the wind and go full steam ahead. Back then, they could muster maybe 20 or so knots of foreword speed. The planes would lumber into the air and would either crash into the ocean or fly away-very slowly until their air speed was much greater than ground speed. So, to all you can't fly mother fuckers, your wrong. Now, that last sentence was meant for the ALR. As you quote me and may be flame me-remember, I am a very delicate flower. Bruise easy. Have a nice New Years.