Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky:
Imagine a hamster on a wheel. The hamster runs, the wheel turns, and the hamster moves across the surface of the wheel but stays in the same [b]relative position so like the plane, there's no airflow over the hamster.

Now on the same wheel (maybe bigger), put the hamster on "nearly frictionless" skates and strap a tiny jet engine on its back. Guess what? The wheel still turns (just faster) and the hamster still maintains a stationary position at the usual place on the wheel. It doesn't travel around the inside of the wheel.

Where Hawk seems hung up is on the relative position. Though air is moving through the engines, generating thrust, the plane itself must be moving forward to generate lift. According to the scenario, the more thrust applied, the faster the belt goes, so the moving treadmill prevents forward motion by in effect giving the wheels nowhere to go.

If the belt moves faster as the plane moves faster, the plane's RELATIVE position doesn't move forward, so again, there's no airflow over the wings. In the scenario given, even with the engines at full power, if you raise the landing gear the plane will collapse to the ground.[/b]
Bad analogy with the hamster. If the hamster were atop the wheel, it would be better. In the wheel, there is always something in front of the hamster keeping it inside the wheel, regardless of means of propulsion. However, if atop the wheel, the hamster with rockets will not be contained and will be propelled forward. Still not a good analogy, but it doesn't have the containment. Inside the wheel, depending on the thrust of the jet/rocket whatever, and the hamster's grip on the wheel, the wheel would whip around backwards like a firework pinwheel.

Hawk is not hung up, you are. The wheels cannot keep the plane from taking off, no matter how fast they spin.