Alright... you guys always help me out so let me try again with a home improvement question!

We are going to put slate tiles down in our sunroom. The sunroom (11ftX12ft) currently has disgusting brown tiles which are simply glued to the cement floor. Pain in the ass to get up.. and probably more harm than good to try and get it up. So what do we do??

Do we lay backerboard right on top of the old tiles? Is that okay to do? Or do we have to tear apart this floor and make the concrete uneven and then redo the concrete???

Thanks in advance!

I am assuming your current floor is of the stick on vinyl type variety.

You can install tiles right over the vinyl tiles. It is usually not recommended, but you can do it.

Make sure you buy a thinset mortar that is approved for installation over a vinyl surface.

If you can buy dry ice locally, its great for getting up tiles. Lapy a flat slab on for a little bit, move it over and the tile will pop right up.

Otherwise yeah, backerboard screwed down, thinset, then tile. Watch your transition height between rooms, dont go too high.

UPDATE: Thanks for the advice... after reading I researched a little more and then went to HD... and guess what I found out?! My 9x9 tiles that are currently down in the sunroom are most likely ASBESTOS. ugh. This is going to be more of a headache than I thought.

Not only that...but the black mastic gluing them to the floor is asbestos containing as well.

That means you have to remove BOTH, or, whatever you put down becomes contaminated.

Its not so much a health risk as a paper chase...if you someday sell the house, etc...plus, the black mastic can bleed through and turn new floors yellow (Not dangerous...just a stain).

As you are considering slate...which doesn't bleed through...you could legally just cover all of the old stuff, and if its intact...that's the cheapest initial solution.

Its only a problem down the road if you sell...and the buyer wants an "adjustment" to deduct the cost of asbestos hazard abatement, and replacement of the flooring, etc.

If you find that a problem...just have it all professionally removed, get a report stating its all been removed, and your air tests have passed...and put in the new tile w/o future concerns.

Good Luck!

I believe this has been covered here before. You can just lay down some concrete over the top of it and seal it in place. Check your local laws though because they can vary from state to state and probably even city to city. If it's something you're able to do it'd be a heck of a lot cheaper than having it removed.

Axle

Did the guy at Home Depot tell you the existing tiles might be asbestos? What gave him that idea? Did you bring a sample with you to the store?

Some things that may narrow it down..... When was the sun room constructed? If the sun room was constructed in the 1970's or earlier, the tiles may contain asbestos. If the sun room was constructed sometime in the 1980's or later, chances are there is no harmful asbestos. Do you know the age of the existing tiles?

If the existing tiles are still in good shape and firmly attached to the concrete slab, you can still install your new slate tiles right over them without any real worry. It's not going to cause any future problems when you sell the property. Besides, no home inspector for a buyer is ever going to remove any of the slate tiles to check what is underneath.

Asbestos exists in many homes without the homeowners even knowing. The joint compound used to finish all the walls in homes during the 60's and 70's had asbestos in it. I don't think there is any legal issue in covering over the existing tiles.

You never really mentioned the condition of the existing tiles. Are they still firmly attached to the slab with no problems? Are any coming loose? The condition of the existing tiles is important because if there are problems with their adhesion, that will need to be addressed prior to any new floor being put down. Specifically a possible moisture issue on the concrete slab.

I wouldn't really start worrying too much at this point. Provide a little more info on the current condition of the existing tiles. That would help a little regarding your next move on the situation.

Well the tiles are in really good condition. We broke one apart to bring it to Home Depot... and the guy said that he is almost positive that it contains asbestos (and probably even the adhesive used does too) because of the size of the tile and the year it was put in. We are thinking the tile was probably installed in the 60s or 70s.

So I searched online to find out the state and federal laws for dealing with this. Lots of info about it... and I know that the asbestos is less harmful as it is now than if we were to take it out ourselves. So I decided to see if I could cover it up... but found nothing online about that (legally I mean). So I emailed my state lead/asbestos department and they said...

"The Massachusetts DOS asbestos regulation does not prohibit the covering of asbestos vinyl tiles with cement. If you disturb the tiles and generate asbestos dust certain requirements of the DOS asbestos regulation will apply. If the tiles are in good condition and not sanded or abraded no dust should be generated".

So should I just pour cement on top and then put the tiles over the new cement??

At this point, that seems like the best idea.

To make sure the job goes smoothly, you might also want to consider using a self leveling cement. That would provide a good even surface on which to install the tiles. It costs a little more, but it is worth it.

Things like ceramic and slate tiles are unforgiving when installed on an uneven surface. The self leveling cement will provide a nice even and level surface.

You could always rent a tile puller. A machine with a blade on the front of it, it pops the tile up for you, and you just load it up and cart it off.

Don't make this harder than it is on yourself...

Removal method: Buy a heat gun. Warm up a few tiles at a time, then peel right up. Asbestos is a fire retardant, so it's not going to catch on fire if it truly is asbestos. If it's vynl, it just means it'll heat up faster and even less work is involved. Anyways, heating them up and removing them that way prevents ANY dust from being created. It also will make the existing black glue be able to be scraped off with a putty knife, again making it so no dust is created. You can get all the tiles off in only a few hours. Remove as much of the existing glue as possible by warming & a putty knife. Then you're good to go.

I would NOT trust any Home Depot employee to be able to tell you if they are asbestos tiles or not. Trust me; they will NOT know. Size has virtually nothing to do with it, and age can only be pinpointed by somebody that does this for a living.

HOWEVER, by removing the tiles with heat, this will leave the original stamping product number intact on the bottom side of the tile. It'll either be stamped on with ink, impregnated into the tile, or molded in. There's a VERY good chance of being able to take one tile up completely, and getting the codes off it. From there, you can look up the manuf., and other product information.

Worse case, the only "regulation" you'll need to worry about in removing them by heat, is how to dispose of them if they are asbestos. Most municipalities will have a hazardous waste disposal center, so you can call there ahead of time and find out what/how you need to dispose of them.

Oh yeah, before you start laying the new tiles, there is a self-leveling grout that you'll use to make the floor nice and smooth, regardless of whether or not there is some remaining glue. You mix this stuff up, pour it over the ENTIRE floor, and watch & wait... It levels itsself off as it dries. it'll usually cover uneveness of 1/4" or so, which is a fairly good amount. Then your tiles are laid directly over top of the grout.

9x9 tiles are asbestos tiles. Guaranteed. I just dealt with this same situation. The way I suggest dealing with the problem is to put down a new subfloor (luan or hardibacker) then simply tile over it. However, cement poses a problem for floor coverings. In most climates, cement will always have a moisture content that is too high to adhere flooring directly. In this situation, I suggest getting a plastic vapor barrier (6 mil should work fine) and cover the existing floor. Then put down the new subfloor and tile. Best way to avoid moisture ruining your new floor tiles.

Just the fact that the tiles were manufactured during the 60's and 70's would indicate that they have asbestos in them.

I hear what you saying regarding the subfloor and moisture barrier, but she has already said there is no moisture problem. The existing tiles have been there for 30-40 years and are still good and firmly attached. If there was a moisture problem, there would also have long ago been problems with the existing tiles.

She can always do a moisture test, but I don't think that is the issue here. From the information posted so far, we are not talking about an interior room that would be heated. We are talking about a rear sun room. Is the sun room heated Sarah P.? If not, there is no warm air coming in contact with a cool slab to create a moisture issue worthy of a moisture barrier.

Covering with self leveling cement is probably her best and cheapest way to go about the project.

................

Porsche..... She lives in MA and they are pretty strict regarding asbestos abatement. I don't think it is ever recommended for homeowners to do it themselves.

It is also expensive to have asbestos abatement people come in and do a removal job.

Care to place a friendly wager on that?

(Before you agree, please realize there are at least 3 companies that I know off of the top of my head that currently manufactuer 9" x 9" vynl tiles that are NOT asbestos...)

Obviously tiles that are in production today do not contain asbestos. I should have been more clear...9x9 tiles that aren't new are asbestos tiles, Guaranteed. How's that?

How "new" do you consider "new"?

There are some 9"x9" made in 1980 that are non-asbestos. And some that are...

I guess my point is, you can't go on size alone; it's a pretty good indicator in really old tiles, but it's not definitive.

The rule of thumb is that MOST of the 9x9's are asbstos, as is most of the associated black mastic....and that MOST of the 12" tiles are not asbestos, as is the associated colored mastic.

You can go to Home Depot (etc) TODAY, and buy asbestos floor tiles, made in Canada.

There are many 9" tiles that are negative, and many 12" tiles that are positive....the sizes are potential indicators of time period, due to styling popular during different time periods...but styles come back, etc.

So - there's no guarantee that that tiles are asbestos containing or not based soley upon appearance.

Polarized Light Microscopy (PLM) and Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM) are the legally acceptable ways of determining asbestos content in floor tiles and mastic.

You are always allowed to just SAY a material is positive, and treat it as such...but testing is REQUIRED to say a material is negative.

As for what to do about it in a home...there's very little in the way of law, as agencies don't have residential jurisdiction if you are doing it yourself...as soon as you pay someone else though, OSHA has jurisdiction, etc.

Based upon past experiences...people who chip up old flooring get asbestos into the air....but there are no symptoms of exposure for decades...so the one's doing it typically have no idea what they did to themselves or other occupants (Their kids, etc...)

The heat gun methods pretty much never creates much dust.

Creation of dust is the one thing you need to prevent...as that's the ony way the asbestos can hurt you, is if you breath in the invisible fibers.

If you want different appearance/flooring, and the floor is intact, etc......you can put the new one over the old one...the only downsides being potential resale issues, and, issues that can arise if the new one is attached to the old one, rendering removal of the new one (One day...) an asbestos project, etc...

Well after analyzing the situation TO DEATH... we had a contractor friend come over and although he had no problem removing the tiles (whether they are asbestos or not) we all decided our best option (and most fitting to our budget) is too simply put a membrane down on top of the existing tiles... and then put our new tile directly on top. So right now we are in the process of sanding the walls (made of knotty pine) and then we will whitewash the walls... and then roll on the membrane.... and then lay out the tiles. So we'll see... I'll have to post up some pics once we get this going.