The link below is to an article for a story that happened in Sacramento, near where I live. You might have heard about it. When I read it, I just get really, really sad for everyone involved. There just are no winners in something like this.

http://www.modbee.com/1618/story/179505.html

I'd say that's a "win" for the Sacramento Justice System. The kid was a piece of shit who "divorced" himself from his family in favor of street gangs, he killed a cop and they busted him. As sad as it is, what makes it any sadder or more difficult to believe than any other of the thousands of similar gang crimes that involve teenagers across the country?

I love the fact that they caught the bastard. The biggest problem with gangs is that the crimes conducted by their individuals to benefit them are almost unenforceable or certainly the vast majority of them go unsolved.

I think its great that Sacramento has legislation against the "benefit of street gangs."

I'm not sure what you mean by that comment.

The newspaper article obviously tried to portray the killer in a sympathetic light as a supposed "victim of circumstance".

He's a killer. He killed a cop. People brazen enough to kill cops are the worst and gravest threats to society.

What he really deserves is the needle, not sympathy. Not from you or anyone else.

No pity for him at all. I pity the cop and his family though.

It is Sad, Sad that he is not eligible for the chair

He'll get some extra attention in prison from the guards I'm sure - Cop killers always do. Shame the tax payer has to look after the lowlife for the rest of his years tho.

I think its "sad" for rift because he lives in that neighborhood. In the "Meth, Mortgage Default, Crappy Air and Auto Theft Capitol of the Nation."

Better add, "Gang infested cop killingest" to that list there, rift. Chear up, good news... I hear things are cheaper, better, safer, in several thousand other cities in the country!

Madman, what I mean by that is a few things.

1. I have worked with kids (11-19 year olds) for over 16 years now. I have many good friends who have worked with youth for as long or longer than that. My wife is an elementary school teacher. Almost without fail, when you find a kid who is screwed up, you can trace the cause back to a screwed up family. Parents (or other adult figures) are almost always the cause of a kid's dysfunction. This is not to take the blame off this kid at all. Rather, it is to say this...

2. Kids become what they are trained to become. Whether its from bad parents or no parents at all, 9 times out of ten... no scratch that... 999 times out of 1,000 kids are doing what their parents (or other adult figures) intentionally or unintentionally taught them to do.

3. Youth want and need structure. Ever read Lord of the Flies? Sure it's a fictional story, but my experience would say that there's a ton of truth in that book. Kids left up to their own devices will seek structure and leadership. Without sane, stable adults around to teach these kids what that structure is supposed to look like, it devolves quickly into survival of the fittest, or more likely, only the strong survive and to hell with anyone else.

I said there are no winners because the Sherriff's Deputy's family has lost a son and husband. The SO has lost a brother. The killer's family has lost a son, who they once held in their arms as an infant. And society as a whole has lost more of its security and hope in the future. We've all lost another young person, another person who could have been a strong leader, father, neighbor given a stable household and upbringing. And now we all have to pay our taxes to keep him in his three-hots-and-a-cot for the rest of his life, provided that he doesn't get shanked. We all know the Corrections System doesn't actually "correct" anyone. It just keeps them locked up so they can't make more mistakes on the outside.

That's what I mean. That's why there are no winners.

Too bad, it is a sad story.

I do feel "bad" for the perp (notice the quotes, MM). Why? Because no one is destined to do this. The choices he made, the choices his family made, led him to this outcome.

I feel bad for people like this. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't equate to sympathy in my book (shit, give me the chance and I'll personally inject this a-hole) but I still feel like he didn't have to do this, that something, somebody, somwhere may have been able to stop this.

Maybe all he needed was a hug as a child, a stronger male role model, a sport, an education, something that was not provided to him by his family.

On the other hand, maybe he got all of this and still turned into a monster. Who knows...

Rift....

You're expending energy trying to either drum up, or show your sympathy for this piece of shit who killed a cop.

You're too caught up in the modern propensity to absolve and remove personal responsibility from individual actions in your attempts here to explain away the fact that this kid is a murderer and cop killer. Society or his environment didn't pull that trigger.

While I don't discount environment in someone's upbringing and personality development, sometimes a dangerous sociopath is just a dangerous sociopath.

You're quick to blame his family situation as part of what led to his becoming a killer, yet when pointing your finger away from him in society's direction, I see no reflection on our modern gutter pop culture that glorifies gang and thug activity as acceptable behavior.

This kid deserves to die for what he did. All the fault for his actions lie squarely on his shoulders.

Also.... The "Lord of the Flies" was more a story about human nature itself than it was about kids.

Gotta disagree, man. And look, I will admit right off the bat, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a Christian. I am one. As such, my take on humanity is this: all men are inherently evil, myself included. That one point flavors my perspective on issues more than just about anything. If another person sees man as inherently good, that flavors his view. But it automatically and drastically divides us.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm in no way giving this kid an excuse. There is no way in any context that his actions would be excusable. Period. He deserves the harshest punishment for what he has done. Lock him up. His actions prove he is a menace and a true danger to all of us.

I know that a person is shaped by both nature and nurture. I know that a person is shaped by things that happen to them and things that happen through them. But you will never convince me that the chaotic (and might I add fatherless) upbringing this kid had didn't impact him dramatically. Add to that a mom who didn't seem to give a crap and the fact that no one was preventing him from "kicking it" with all kinds of other misguided kids who led him down this path.

I grew up with a kid whose dad was killed while trying to steal a car. His mom was a drugged out whore. He was living with his grandma, but his grandpa died long before. With no man around to enforce the rules, once he got big enough to dodge grandma's backhand, he was totally out of control. He knocked up two different women, stole several cars, nearly killed his friend in a drunken car wreck, was in prison at least 3 times, and...well I've lost track of where he is now. Maybe dead.

So Madman, I usually agree with you, but this time, you're just wrong. I know this kid's behavior is disgusting. I know it's enraging to know he did this. But it's just not so cut and dry as you make it out to be.

If your version of Christianity states that all men are inherently evil, I have to say that is pretty fucked up. That's not any Christian stuff I've heard before.

You claim you are not making excuses for the kid, then you go on and on about his fatherless life and lowlife mother. Basically making excuses for the kid because "everything is not cut and dry".

If you weren't trying to paint this kid as a victim of circumstance, what the hell was the point of even creating this thread claiming this is "sad for everyone"?

I will agree with the every man is a sinner thing which could be recognized as evil. But regardless of background, we all still have choices. This kid chose to be a cop killer. We all have our thorns we must live with, work around, push through. He is responsible for his actions no matter who failed him leading up to the event.

here we go....

Hey Madman. Okay, I definitely didn't intend this thread to go this direction. But...

Okay why did I post the thread, you ask? Look at the headline I gave it. It is sad. Tragically sad. And yes, all men are inherently evil, including me, all pastors, the Pope, Rev. Billy Graham, Mother Theresa...every last one of us. That's not to say we're incapable of good actions. But by nature, if given the choice to do good or evil, our propensity will almost without fail lean towards the evil. Thank Adam and Eve. It's the reason Jesus came to earth. To save mankind from destruction brought upon himself by choosing to stray from God's intended path.

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

That's the beauty of the Gospel, dude. We were destined for destruction, and God simply couldn't sit by and let it happen. He had to throw us a life-preserver. It's up to us to grab the thing. His name is Jesus.

Okay, so I'll repeat myself here. In fact, I'll quote myself here:

"I'm in no way giving this kid an excuse. There is no way in any context that his actions would be excusable. Period. He deserves the harshest punishment for what he has done. Lock him up. His actions prove he is a menace and a true danger to all of us."

So no, I'm not giving this kid excuses. He screwed up in an unimaginable way. Horrible beyond words. Pure evil. Lock him up and do not let him out. But I guess one of my thoughts is, this is an evidence of what danger the destruction of the family unit causes in society. Man was not intended to live without a family. Man was designed to have a mother and a father around him to teach him and love him. Without those, he becomes little more than an animal.

Do some research. Click here to read some of the havoc fatherlessness causes in a child's life...

http://www.childrensjustice.org/fatherlessness2.htm

Madman, I respect you and I respect your opinion and certainly your anger towards this kid. I am in no way trying to justify his actions. What he did was wrong, wrong, wrong and regardless of his upbringing, he still must and should be held accountable for his actions. No one made him carry a gun. No one made him shoot. No one made him join a gang. He did. He may have had influences in certain directions, but heck, who among us didn't? I didn't have a dad. I had drugs all around me. By all measures, I should be a total screw-up living under a bridge somewhere. But by God's grace alone, I am not. And that's why this is so sad. It didn't have to be. I think mine_man said it well. Read his post.

rift, there's a HUGE difference between being a sinner and being evil.

Not to a Fundie.

Wow this is turning into an interesting thread. Okay I'll bite. Splain.

I gotta think about how to best convey the difference to you as anything I write at the moment won't be worded in a manner that would make sense.

Waiting with breathless anticipation...

OK, I'll bite. I got enough biblical brainwashing when I was a kid on this topic.

Sinner - what we are by nature. Even generally good intentioned people are born into sin.

Evil - Doing bad shit with intent to cause harm, hurt to others.

It's not hard. If you'd like I can post up Webster's definitions, which I'm sure will prove equally enlightening on the difference between the two.

Do me a favor and leave the bible quotes out of the debate. It is not proving your point and is basically proving nothing.

By what you are saying I think it is safe to assume you are one of these born again Christians. Your Christian beliefs are not the same as many other Christians, and yes, most don't believe that mankind is inherently evil.

In relation to the title of this thread, the only thing that is so freaking sad is the fact that there wasn't another cop at the scene to blow this kid back to hell where he belongs.

While I really don't want to start an argument with you either, I have to say ........ every single day the newspapers are loaded with all kinds of stories that you could deem "sad". I just hope it doesn't mean you will be feeling the need to create a thread for every story about some lowlife kid who you believe was a victim of circumstance and went wrong.

Do the Christian thing and spare us from doing that.

My take:

Sinners = all of us. We know what's right and we know what's wrong, and in a moment of weakness, pride, jealousy, anger, etc, we do the wrong thing. Eventually (minutes, hours, days...) we realize we screwed up, we feel remorse, we apologize, we seek forgiveness, we move on, learn from our mistakes and we try to become better more sinless people.

Evil = those who have no concept or care about what's right or wrong. They act impulsively without any remorse or thought regarding the consequences of their actions.

I imagine that people like Jefferey Dahmer experience no more feelings as teenagers when they torture and kill animals than we do when we cut the lawn. They might understand that some authority figure will become upset about their actions for "some reason" but they don't feel badly about anything they do.

Madman. Gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. If you want to call me "one of these born again Christians" you can do that. That's fine. It's not inaccurate. But to ask me to leave the Bible quotes out is to ask me to leave out my moral code. It is my guide, it is my instruction manual for life. For some people, Jerry Springer or the latest Vivid Video is their life manual. For me it is God's Word. So don't ask me to and don't get mad when I don't. I'm not asking you to leave out your moral guides when you get into a discussion. I respect yours.

I also don't agree with your comment that "Your Christian beliefs are not the same as many other Christians, and yes, most don't believe that mankind is inherently evil". If that's the case, those people have simply not read the Bible.

No, I'm not going to start a thread for every one of these stories. You're right. Today's news is positively rife with tragic, heart-breaking stories. This one happened to hit close to home, in a community near where I live, to two people groups I deeply respect: law enforcement and youth. I don't know where you anger comes from towards me and this thread, but if I "offended" you it was not my intent.

I believe what I believe, and it is glaringly obvious we have vast differences of opinion. I'm sorry to hear you have such a negative opinion of "these born again Christians". To be honest, a lot of them piss me off too. But I hope that you will at least not take your anger at Christians out on God. It's not His fault we're a bunch of idiots.

I don't know what's worse, a junkie or a fundie. Sure, a fundie might not break into my car and steal my iPod for Bible Money, but then again, I've never had a junkie look down his nose at me 'cause I have a thing for strong language, strong drink, and scantily clad women.