I think you went to a different instructor than I did T-Ray. My instructor advised you never aim to wound, you always shoot for center mass. If you draw your weapon you have to be prepared to kill the person you are drawing on, otherwise they can take the weapon from you and kill you with it.

"Prepared to kill" is the key phraase here. You neutralize the threat, but that doesn't mean that once your attacker is down you can finish him/her off. The object is not to kill, it's to stop the attack. If you have to kill the person to do that, then you do what you have to do, but I hope your instructor was not telling you that you have to kill whomever you draw on. I get it if he's just saying "if you draw, you must be prepared to fire" because guns are not to be flashed in a "do we have a problem here" type situation. That's very illegal (at least in my state)

Agreed. It's all about mentally preparing yourself to be in that situation and what you need to think about and do in that situation, that was the big emphasis on what my instructor taught. And you are correct, the instructor did not say to kill anyone you draw on. But if you draw you have to be prepared for that outcome to prevent your own weapon from being used against you.

You draw it - you gotta be prepared to use it. Yo u can't just draw and hope that puts off the aggressor.

Dead people can't sue.

Getting sued by some asshole who I shoot coming up the stairs after breaking into my house, or after trying to carjack me or whatever is not an option for me.

agreed.

This is the kind of BS that gives CCW holders a bad name.

The whole point is in the verbage when you go to court after a shooting.

"I fired at the attacker in order to stop him."

OR

"I fired at the attacker in order to kill him."

If you say the latter, the next question in line will be: Why did you want to kill him? Would it not have been sufficient to stop the attack?

I don't think anyone here ever WANTS (i hope) to to take another life. If you shoot someone in defense, it should be to stop them from the assault. You aim for center mass not to kill, but because by aiming there you have a higher percentage to hit the target, thus stopping the attack. Most people in that situation are not skilled and composed enough to actually aim and hit as they would on the range. That is why I shoot IDPA, for practice under a high adrenaline pump...not that I am some zen master, but practice cannot hurt.

I would always rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. However, if I am involved in a shooting, the words that leave my lips can play a big role in the outcome of a civil or criminal trial.

I am a recent user of CO's CCW laws. As a matter of fact, when I went to go turn the paperwork in and the office manager told me it was going to take two weeks, I told her I may be interested in an emergency permit. She asked why, I got about a third of the way thru my story when she stops me and begins to fill out paperwork for the emergency permit, which I recieved about an hour later, free of charge.

I have a situation (still ongoing btw) that basically requires that I arm myself to protect myself, my family and my fellow workers. I felt that I had a choice - risk serious injury or death, or arm myself and have a chance at stopping somthing bad. Chance is the key word, a CCW does not guarantee safety.

Been carrying for a few weeks now, and it does make me feel a little safer, a little better prepared. This is coming from someone that until a few weeks ago might not have had the ability, mentally, to kill someone. After the situation I have been faced with, my views have changed.

Above all else I really feel that guns in the hands of responsible, trained individuals is safer than only being in the hands of criminals.

How do you figure? Quote the rest of my comment to put it in context. Let's turn it around. You have an intruder in your home at night and you're going to intentionally shoot to wound?

Bullshit.

Center mass.

I've been around guns my whole life. I grew up hunting and shooting in competitions...did pretty good at it. I've been in the military, and I own several firearms today. I'm also a life member of the NRA and have taught several kids and adults how to safely handle a firearm.

I've also read enough articles to see that criminal rights often supercede victim rights in the cases where they've sued those defending themselves despite them initiating the offense.

I'm sure NYMM or someone else with the time to look up news articles on the internet could even find you an example. That's where my comment comes from.

Still glad to see you came around and have learned or seen a new perspective. Good luck with that situation BTW. Hopefully you never have to use that permit, but it is there if you do and you can rest knowing you are prepared and that makes you less of a target.

a few reasons:
1) I got the permit after being robbed at gunpoint while walking with a friend at his apartment complex in Dallas. My friend wanted to get the permit after that so I agreed to take the class with him. He then bailed on me and I ended up taking it alone - so it's something I did without really being that into it. We both agreed that in our particular situation a gun would not have helped and might have made things worse because they caught us completely unaware. They ran out of a dark place between buildings at us as we walked by and were within 10 feet or less by the time we realized what was going on... Now, better situational awareness AND a gun might have helped - but that's another topic.

2) When I took the class, the primary thing I took away from it was that it's worse to have a gun than not to have a gun in many situations i.e. The possibility of having an accident with the gun, shooting an innocent bystander, shooting and later finding out that I wasn't as justified in shooting as I thought I was, getting in trouble for accidentally carrying in the wrong place etc.
Plus even if you use it correctly to defend yourself you'll still be arrested, taken to trial for murder, hopefully get off on self defense but that's no guarantee (Using a concealed weapon in self defense is a legal defense in court - but it doesn't stop them from trying you and you running the risk that it won't go like it's supposed to) - oh, and then there's the civil trial when the bad guy's family sues you etc. It's better than being dead - but it seems like some combination of pepper spray and running your ass off would be safer/better than risking all the gun stuff.

3) I do carry it in my car sometimes

4) You get out of more tickets if you have a CHL

T-Ray-
I don't know if it was the experience I am currently facing, V-Tech, Bailey, the Amish school or just plain growing up (sucks, wanted to hold on to the carefree for as long as possible, cause let's face it the real world can suck), or a combination of all of the above, but I turned from total pacifist to gun-nut in about 30 days. Shit, I am the poster-boy for emergency concealed carry permits, and why it shouldn't take several weeks (let alone several days) to attain one.

I do truly hope I never, ever have to use it.

Not going to read the 3 page thread, because I've heard it all before.
I carry, every day...the only time I disarm myself is when I get out of my vehicle at the office (boss got real nervous when I told him I had a permit and would like to carry while on the job...driving vans with the word "Audiovisuals" on the side tends to make us targets for thieves/carjackers), or when I go to a property that has a sign posted (like the Coors brewery in Golden) that I can't carry, or the prohibited places like courthouses, etc...)
I carry for the same reasons I'm positive have been mentioned in this thread already: there's a carry law in my state, criminals don't obey laws so I'm going to protect myself and my wife, and honestly it's made me a much calmer person...I don't get upset in traffic anymore, altercations on the street I just shrug off, etc...
I'm trained with my carry weapon, among others, I hope I never have to use my weapon, but if I do I will be ready, pretty simple decision for me.

Well said Tyler. It has made me a much calmer more level headed thinker during situations that previously may have gotten me quite aggravated. It is a big responsiblity and one that I take very seriously.

If you don't break the Law (of which I'm confident of if you're a Law Abiding Gun Owner) then I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Your defence will be instinctive and it will be over before you realize.

If your prone to break the law, I.e. run from Police, rob banks, attack women, etc. then by all means you shouldn't be carrying a weapon.

Chef, It's a little sad to think you wouldn't want to take the time to read some of the thoughtful opinions that others have posted and seems a little superior in your attitude.

Tim, I never realized you carried and as a friend ask why the hell you haven't invited me out shooting. I'm hoping to clean up my SKS from the Fire and get it used a bit.

Adam, I'm a bad friend for not inviting you out. truth is lately I have been more prone to go wheeling than shooting. I will start again come August/September so I am go to go for hunting seasons in the fall.

I usually don't like to advertise that I carry. Part of what I learned in class is that it makes some people nervous...? and you lose any tactcal advantage gained by concealment. It does make my wife nervous sometimes, but she knows my strong feelings on the reasons why, and agrees 100%.

Anytime you wanna go, I have plenty of ammo. I sold my SKS a few years back. That was a fun gun. I just ordered a surplus CZ-82 for my dad. Should be here this weekend, gotta take it out and make sure it works!

Hey - you fuckers better not go without inviting me too! Will bring my Mosin Sniper conversion and my Glock to play. I normally go out near 4 Peaks on the 4 Peaks Road. I know this time last year tho they had shooting bans in place due to the fire hazzard

***Thread Hijack

That place is good, but crowded unless you go deep into the area. I usually go out off of Castle Hot Springs Road, but now that I live further SE, may have to re-think that. Maybe we should plan an AZXC family shoot day? That would be fun & different than the usual...

Cool, I was just jazzing you. I've considered the CCW but Joannie (being shot once) is a bit nervous around weapons. I've always tried to not be 'in her face' about it. If I feel I'm in imminent danger I'll protect myself/family even if it may not be "legal" and face the consequences like a Man.

I borrowed a friends .38 for about a year after I was attacked in front of my house. They never came back for more because I don't take shit.

I would HIGHLY recommend the CCW clas for the both of you. Even if you never ever intend on carrying, it is worth the amount of knowledge that you will glean from eduacate dand experienced instructors. I took mine from Cactus Match League, a guy named Ed Schein who has been party of a greater part of legislation pertaining to the 2nd amendment here in AZ and nationwide. I will attend again with Lindsey in the fall, just so she is more educated.

It reaaly puts things into a better perspective and gives you some things to consider about the legal system and guns.

I know you were just jazzing me, seriuously though we will get a group together and have a shooting day when it is not 110 degrees outside.

I'll see what strings I can tug to get a range set up maybe in the fall.

Lindsey like to shoot, especially my .22 bolt action that was my great-grandfathers'. She could sit and shoot that all day. Has never shot a handgun though. I need to get my .22 target pistol back from my dad, that would be great for the girls to get comfortable with.

I have a little .22 9 shot revolver she can use, that thing kicks about as much as a cap gun. Then the logical progression up to the 9mm - which kicks a little harder, but you could still shoot the thing all day.

Then if she wants to try shooting a rifle, my bro in law has an AK if we drag him along - which is so easy to shoot it's crazy, plus has hardly any recoil. He also has a bunch of old bolt action rifles which are fun to shoot.

My next purchase is either a .357 revolver an AK or an old Enfield SMLE. The Crossroads gun show is in town on July 7th - 8th at the Fairgrounds. Shame I'll be camping.

Took a couple of old empty propane bottles with us once:

http://www.rinky.us/propane1.jpg
http://www.rinky.us/propane2.jpg

The 9mm just dents it, the rifles punch nice neat holes right through and the bigger hand guns rip some nice big holes in there. Makes a satisfying 'Ping' when hit tho, I have 2 more ready to go in the garage

I might be in for that.

I usually prefer to go out in the desert, but Usury Mtn range on Ellsworth is a nice little range to go to, and they've got a good clay pigeon flinger...I've got a couple hundred clays in my garage and a couple hundred rounds of 12 guage too, for any of you scatter gun types.

Forgive me if I came off sounding superior, not my intention at all. I've read over 100 threads on various boards about this same topic. I've read the most thoughtful well reasoned responses I've ever seen on the internet with regards to this topic. I've also read the most ridiculous, irrational, and fear mongering responses with respect to this subject.
I was tired at the end of the day and didn't feel like reading the same well thought out, and some irrational, responses to this very touchy subject. I just wasn't in the mood that night, wasn't being elitist or arrogant. In fact, I am one of the owners of a concealed carry forum (www.coloradocarry.com) and I love to encourage rational discussion of the topic. I've seen many of our discussions on XOC that have any sort of controversial nature (politics, guns, religion) spin way out of control. My reasoning was that (in addition to being dead tired), if the coals were being stoked or the flames fanned, I would post a calm response as to why I carry...chill things out a little bit. If that wasn't necessary (doesn't seem like it) then it was just another well reasoned post as to why I choose to carry

I'm glad you replied so thoughtfully. There are more level heads here then what seems to come across sometimes. I think we have people that have an agenda (good or bad) that they want to push, but are hiding behind a screen name and "Fanning the Flames" as you put it.

BTW - I'm jelous you live in CO and I don't! :p