I completely understand the concept that space must extend infinetly in all directions...it cannot be otherwise...

...and that there can be no beginning or end to time...

During my shower...that was not the hard part...

Its matter I was having trouble with...how can THAT be infinite?

An infinite empty void, ok, easy enough...

...but, where would matter come from inside it?

What mechanism could explain the formation of matter....from what did it originate?

I don't mean big bang era stuff...I mean EVER...

There would HAVE to be an infinite empty void for everything to exist within...that made sense...

But what would make matter form?



I thought about this during the entire shower...and I think I've got it figured out.

Nothing would make matter form; what ever it came from, a harmonic, some sub atomic particle, etc....would have to ALSO come from somewhere or some thing....so:

The universe, logically, is NOT an infinite empty void with some matter floating around...and, as what we call matter has HAD to always exist...it could NOT have materialized at some point...

So matter has therefore always existed just like the rest of the universe has, and, more importantly, has to be what the universe is made of.

We already know that matter and energy are essentially interchangeable...and that it appears in different forms at different times.

So - that means that there is no void...its all a continous entity, perhaps what we call energy that can form matter under certain conditions.

So, this energy is what extends for eternity in all directions, and has always existed, with different forms over time, etc.

This sounds reasonable to me....does anyone else have thoughts on this?

I agree.

Everything has always existed in some form or another, there was never "nothing" in my opinion. How could there be?

TJ, did you just watch the Hawkins Paradox about Steven Hawkens and black holes? Just watched it an hour or so ago. Deep stuff... or something. All that really matters is that my steak that I'm about to cook doesn't disappear because I'm pretty darn hungry!

:rolleyes:

That's not even related other than it mentions matter/energy.

I feel some debate about religeon coming on...

I agree, E=MC2 pretty much sums that up. I imagine mater as a form of energy folded up in on itself, many many times. The thing I have trouble getting my brain around is that it's always been there. I don't disagree with this, but being the finite sentient thing that I am, I've definitely gotta question whether or not I've got the organic makeup to actually grasp that fully. I am after all a by product of this.

TJ: The plane takes off, and revolvers suck. Deal with it.



(I'm back to feeling better, now...)

If I fart and it doesn't make a noise, does it still stink?

I believe "He who smelt it, dealt it" comes into play in that instance Rat.

Depends on what you ate.

What I meant is, we know it can stink if it makes no sound. If it does so, makes no sound yet still stinks, and we do not speak of it , we are really denying it's existence in whole, as if it never really happened.

I mean more than just that matter and energy are interchangeable...Einstien already expressed thoughts on that....

What I'm trying to say, is that there is no empty space....its not a void...and the parts that quantuum mechanics and Newtonian Physics run into contradictions and unexplained results for, may be explained by taking this into account.

I'm saying that energy and matter has had to always exist, as no external force can logically create it....and that logically, it therefore is comprised of an energy interchangeable with matter under certain conditions....and possibly not the energy and matter that we commonly refer to...but the actual fabric of the universe itself, at its most basic level.

And how did it get there...(It had to have been created outside of a physical understanding since it cannot materialize from a void).

Hey TJ,
You really thing a bunch of morons on a truck board (myself included)are gonna figure this out?

Why not?

We gave the OTHER guys long enough, don't you think?

OK - so if you are still with me...

We know that sound waves propagate at known velocities in different media, as in the speed of sound is different at different altitudes, in water vs metal, etc.

We know that sound, or light, bouncing off a reflector doesn't change speed, merely continues in the new direction at the same speed, even when bounced back in the opposite direction.

The limiting factor seems to be the balance between propagation/transmission speed - vs - how fast the stuff in the way can get OUT of the way....as in if it can't get out of the way fast enough, there is a sonic boom, etc.

We also know that light is propagated at a known speed...a constant, albeit there are limited circumstances that slow or speed up light as well.....but not the same things that speed up or slow down sound, etc.

We also know that light can be bent by gravity, or at least as it passes by massive bodies, its path is deflected proportional to the mass involved.

That means that light's speed is limited by the stuff in its way....but the stuff is not stuff that we seem to have identified, and, it appears to have mass, and be energy....at the same time.

It also seems that if we find out what it is that is limiting light's speed, we could accelerate light to higher speeds by creating a media w/o this interference.

I've been thinking about Momentum....

as in WHY is there a tendancy for an object in motion to stay in motion......obviously, they do, but, what is it about our universe that makes that happen?

Why does a wave propagate, a ball fly over the outfield fence when hit, etc.?

It appears to me that an object can be imbued with directed energy.....but, REALLY, what is making matter DO that?

Once the initial impact is made, and one object physically pushes another...WHY does it keep going long AFTER the initial contact......what's pushing it after that?

The easy answer is momentum, but, I am asking the most elemental question...why IS there momentum?

Is it related to wave propagation?

Is there something in the universe that acts to conduct matter along a path? Like when you light a light, and the light travels away at a known speed.....why that speed, what's the reason its not faster or slower?

The parts of the universe we don't know about, call it dark matter, or what ever...might be what acts in this fashion.

What do you think?

Your discussion of matter is related to inertia.

When discussing light, you are talking about general relativity and electromagnetic radiation.

Light is not considered matter.

The answer to your question is obviously the effect created by the anti-matter universe on our universe.

I had a big burrito earlier and I believe that the gravitational pull of the earth shall increase 2 mins and 55 seconds before I leave the bathroom.

This will result in more dark matter and Energy (can be proved with a match) being released and it could result in the moon shifting its orbit around our planet. The inertia generated during its first few inches of fall shall be SIGNIFICANT!! Earthquakes of magnitude 9 will befall the central US!!

So in short.... the end is near, Armageddon is about to arrive. Kiss your loved ones, hug your friends, make amends with your enemies & hold hands. Because.... I ... am ... going... to ... flush.

Yeah, man you got yourself a good question there, one which I can not explain.

I do offer this. Matter and energy are interchangable, we know this. What types of matter and energy becomes what types of matter and energy is the problem. There are many forms of both. Examples would be dark matter, and antimatter. Dark matter, if I am not mistaken, is an essential matter for the big bang theory.

So my understanding would then lead me to believe that energy existed first, the big bang changed this energy into matter as we know it today.

So the question then becomes, what energy was present prior to the big bang, and why was it that the big bang produced the matter and energy known today.

Then there is also Shrodinger's cat, which in this instance would mean that there is a possibility that the universe did not exist until we observed it.

This is where God would come in. Since the cat is a duality, both alive and dead, and you don't know until it is observed, maybe religion created the beings to observe the universe, thus the universe was "created" by a higher power.

I am not very good at putting my thoughts on paper, one reason I am an engineer, not a writer.

Matter and energy are not really interchangeable, I think its more like they are the same thing, but expressed in different units.

The problem is that they have calculated that photons have no mass, but, that they have weight...and that mass itself may not be as simple as first thought.

Einstien was talking about mass distorting the universe, like a bowling ball on your bed...it creates a low point that other things would roll towards (Warping time/space is how he put it I think...)

So - that begs the question...WHAT is the bed made of?

WHAT is distorted by the object, such that other objects fall toward it?

IE: Gravity would not be a force that pulls you towards a mass, it would be the way the mass shaped the bed, making you fall towards it.

OK - fine and dandy...WTF is the bed made of?

If we look at outer space....a sound wave will not propagate through it, but a radio wave will, a light wave will, etc.

If I shine a light onto water, it won't make a splash....

If I blow up a bomb in space, you couldn't hear it...

If I swap media though, the bomb makes a splash, and propagates waves, and the light will propagate waves that travel through the universe.

That means that outer space is made of something....something that can resonate with certain conditions...and not others.

That also means that the attraction between objects has more to do with their relative warping of that damn bed.

But - If THAT'S the case....why do we have momentum?

Why does the wave propagate at all?

IS there a wave, or is it just a ripple in the bed started by the source that propagates?

Light, sound, magnetic and electric fields, etc...all have frequencies......how far apart the ripples are....and amplitudes, how tall/deep the ripples are.

Logically, I have trouble with an OBJECT travelling in a wave pattern....it makes no sense unless its being affected by some sort of stuff in its way....like a leaf fluttering down from a tree, etc.

Same with energy....it should either stay put, or move in a path to its destination....UNLESS its being inteferred with by stuff in its way.

Everything comes back to there being stuff in the way....what is it?

Dark matter, or some of dark matter?

Anti-Matter?

Is a thermonuclear explosion due to expansion above the speed of light, like a sonic boom is from something exceeding the speed of sound?

The "stuff" can't get out of the way any faster than the speed of light, so we have a "photic flash" instead of a sonic boom?

Sound is not a thing...its a wave propagating through a media....like a ball swings into a ball, which swings into a ball, etc...

...the last ball has nothing to do with the first, other than the first one sending all of the others at it.

In water, or air, its the water or air that carries the propagation......

Is a beam of light the same thing, or a similar principle?

Is the stuff in deep space the same as in our solar system?

If the stuff in deep space can get out of the way quickly enough when a nuclear bomb goes off, would there be the same type of explosion?

I don't buy the whole warping of time space crap.....time is not a thing, you can't affect it....and space is just the place the stuff occurs, you can't affect it....

......the only things that can be warped relative to time and space are things IN time and space....what ever the bed is made of....and, obviously, what WE are really made of.

OK, I think we're surrounded by this stuff....and, I think that to understand how to get a handle on it....we need to know why momentum exists...as it appears that momentum may be related to this warping....as in speeding through the medium appears to set things in motion, literally, and figuratively.

I think you are wrong about the warping of time and space... or spacetime.

Mass and gravity does have an effect. I also don't think you are correct about time.

Time is a thing. It is not a tangible thing like matter, but it can be affected by the physical universe.

It may also be possible to travel through time. Not into the past, but only into the future.

Magnetism most probably holds the key somewhere. The relationship between it and time dilation could make forward movement in time possible. Of course the velocity factor would have to be overcome somehow.

The universe is also expanding. You forgot to ask, what is it expanding into?

The Big Bang most likely created two universes. Our physical universe containing matter and another... either identical or parallel universe containing the anti-matter or anti-particles of the energy that existed to create the Big Bang.

The relationship between the matter and anti-matter universes upon each other could explain much of the phenomena of our universe. That relationship would most likely be magnetic in nature because all electrons are themselves tiny magnets. The same would also be true in the anti-matter universe, but only in reverse or the opposite.

Both universes could occupy the same space, but in different dimensional planes.

Naw, you're a Madman for thinking that.



Time is not a real dimension, merely a construct.....you can't grab time and move it.

You just use time to tell how far it is between events chronologically.

If something has happened, it happened.

If something is going to happen, it will happen, but, you cannot KNOW it will happen for sure until it does.....as event leading up to it can change it, etc.

There is no future to travel to, because it has not happened yet.

There is no past to travel to, because you already missed it.

You are wrong. Mass has an effect on time.

Time IS the fourth dimension. It is more than a "construct" as you claim.

Quote:

If something is going to happen, it will happen, but, you cannot KNOW it will happen for sure until it does.....as event leading up to it can change it, etc.

There is no future to travel to, because it has not happened yet.

There is no past to travel to, because you already missed it.

It will never be possible to travel into the past, but traveling into the future may be possible.

Because of relativity, to a person who remains on earth the future has not happened yet. To an individual or body in motion there can be a time dilation because of the difference in the relative velocities between the two.

That is why travel to the past can never be possible, but because of velocity, it is theoretically possible to travel into the future.

Tell me how mass has an effect upon time.



(Other than if you are too fat, you may not have enough time to lose enough weight, etc...)

THEN,

Expound upon -

If you travel into the future, it is merely your present at that point.

How can you have a relative velocity between an existing object or person, and one that does not exist yet?

We are all travelling forward in time...but, we never get out of the present, because, by definition, the present is when we are....not where we'll be.

If we get there...that's the present.

If the future didn't happen yet, we can't go there anyway.

If we COULD travel into the future, did we skip the past that would have occurred, and, if so, as we (As you theorized) can't go back into the past.....are we who we would have been at that point in the future if we HAD those intirim life experiences?

And if we are not, we are not truly in the future, merely a bastardized relocation of some sort.

Which is all a moot point, as its impossible to travel in time, we are mired in the present, no matter where we go.

I know there are theories, and so forth, but they are all flawed, and require things that don't exist to occur to make it work.

Its nice to call time a 4th dimension, and it is a dimension in that things do also occur in time, and if one were plot something's position completely, the time that it existed at that position is certainly relevant, etc.

We can make something move in the other 3 dimensions though, but we can only observe where in the 4th dimension it is, we do not have the ability to take an object, and place it at another time other than the present......

.......we can PLAN to HAVE it at some point in the future...but, we have to WAIT for that time to occur, for it to BE there eventually.

I can make something longer, shorter, less dense, more dense, remove mass or add mass, move it to other locations in the universe.....but, when it gets there, it will be in the present.

Does the matter matter if it is a matter of fact?.

The whole discussion and theories about black holes involve mass and it's effect on time or spacetime (Space and time are two parts of one whole).

A black hole's mass compresses and that bends time or spacetime. It is believed that at the center of the black hole, or the singularity as they call it, there is no space or time. Or it is so tiny it is practically incalculable.

I also believe they say that as you travel past the event horizon of a black hole, you will be pulled forward in time.

So yes, there is most definitely a relationship between mass and time or spacetime.

Am I wrong?

Yeah - space/time is not space and time, referred to as the horizon....and the THEORY that you'd be pulled forward in time is also refuted by many a great mind.

Pulled into the hole, and deconstructed to whatever the mass of a star with the size of a basketball deconstructs you to, sure.....but, that becomes your present. (I mean, Hell, for all we know, all matter is condensed, and you are completely the same, but infinitesimally smaller...)

They talk about warping space/time....but that's just the dent in the bed.....

...we still really just want to know what the bed is made of...and what warps it, what ripples it, etc.



Again...they've changed what they consider mass to be....so that old connection has been broken......its about warping the bed now....so you fall towards the mass, but you are NOT pulled to the mass.

Which is, again, why we need to know why there is momentum....newtonian, and otherwise.

It will always be the present to the individual observer.

Say for a minute, you have a spaceship. You shake hands with all your friends on earth then leave for a journey in your ship. You travel at great speeds. Maybe even approaching the speed of light, but you don't necessarily have to go that fast.

The faster you move in space and the closer you get to the speed of light, the more time will have passed back on earth relative to your time frame as the space traveler moving at a rapid velocity.

When you return to earth, years could have passed. Your friends would be older. To you as the traveler, maybe months would have passed in your relative perception. Your body would only have aged months or a year. Whatever time frame you experienced.

It's all about relativity.

Great velocities can enable a traveler to move forward in time relative to an observer back on earth.

It's all theory, but it is possible. What might not be possible is building a spaceship that can travel at such great velocities without hitting some type of debris in space and breaking up.

Alright, TJ, time to clear things up. First off, you need to head over to http://www.mkaku.org/forums/ to talk more about this and get real answers from fully accredited astrophysicists (I am only an astrophysics major, but have 1 more year left).

About matter and having to be an infinite empty void, you need to read up on the Multiverse theory. It pretty much states that there are millions of universes coming into and exiting existence every second. Along these lines, there are also tiny black holes coming into existence and folding under their own gravity in our own backyards.

There is a theory out there about white holes, that they are the other side of a black hole. And the matter that a black hole sucks up is spit into another universe via a white hole. Many theorists think that our universe and the big bang were simply a white hole ejecting matter.

On another note, nothing can be accelerated faster than the speed of light. This is because as you approach the speed of light, it takes an infinite amount of energy to actually reach the speed of light. And if you tried to do that, anything with mass would be stripped down and converted to photons.

And for those of you talking about E=mc^2, you can't relate that to speed of light, its not relativistic. Instead, what you need to use is:

E=umc^2, where u= 1/(sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2))).

If you know anything about math, you can see that as 'v' approaches 'c', 'u' becomes infinite, therefore 'E' also becomes infinite.

Any other questions, feel free to send me a pm or post up here and I'll try to sort through things as logically as possible, or with as much physics, astronomy, quantum mechanics, and relativity as desired.

Space and time are two parts of one whole.

I don't know how far forward you would move in time as you enter the event horizon. They say there is a gravitational time dilation. Maybe time slows down or ceases to exist inside a black hole.

Relative to an observer at a safe distance, I don't know what it would mean.

Quote:

Pulled into the hole, and deconstructed to whatever the mass of a star with the size of a basketball deconstructs you to, sure.....but, that becomes your present. (I mean, Hell, for all we know, all matter is condensed, and you are completely the same, but infinitesimally smaller...)

I don't think you get the whole concept of relativity.

To you as the space traveler, it will always be YOUR present.

Quote:

They talk about warping space/time....but that's just the dent in the bed.....

...we still really just want to know what the bed is made of...and what warps it, what ripples it, etc.

You want to know what the emptiness of space is made of? I guess everybody wants to know.

We already know what warps it. That is what we have just been discussing.

Quote:

Again...they've changed what they consider mass to be....so that old connection has been broken......its about warping the bed now....so you fall towards the mass, but you are NOT pulled to the mass.

Which is, again, why we need to know why there is momentum....newtonian, and otherwise.

Since when did they change the definition or concept of mass? Changed it how or to what?

I thought we already knew what momentum was. It's the product of mass and velocity.

Newtonian momentum, sure...how it can be calculated, etc...well understood.....but the REAL question is WHY it exists.

The math works...but, as we FALL into a black hole (Theoretially), as opposed to being PULLED into it...going back to the mass not creating gravity as originally thought, but warping the bed to make things roll towards mass (Again, as opposed to the mass creating a pulling force...)...we have therefore changed what we consider to be gravity, and mass.

Scientists have watched things fall into black holes...they disappear...just like they're supposed to....no time travel happened to the watching scientists, and, I'm sure, the objects falling in merely had a sucky present, rather than time travel.

So you can't warp time, merely space, nor space, as in empty space, which I theorize doesn't exist.

If you can warp "space" and make things roll along it, etc...is amde of something that CAN be warped...

....what is happening when we reverse poles on a magnet?

Every few millenia, the earth's poles swap.

Its all about the iron.

That's magnatism...a different rubric.

We know large objects seem to bend passing light, Einstein predicted it, and it had since been observed on a few confirming occaisions.

So, light propagates, sound propagates, objects fall towards larger "masses", and all objects, regardless of size, seem to have the same effect, proportional to what we call their mass.

Things in motion tend to continue this motion, unless something is in the way.....and, there's a difference between diffraction/deflection/richochett, and resistance....

What makes them stay in motion?

I think its a fundamental question that needs an answer beyond the newtonian, after the fact explanation, of the WAY they stay in motion....it WHY that is important to me now.

My head hurts.

Feel the burn...

Muscles get stronger with use.