OK....

All I'm hearing is a bunch of self-righteous fools talking about records being "stolen" and complaining about the "druggies" ruining the game.

Steroids have been used since WWII by humans to gain muscle mass. What about all of the years when there was no testing? What about today's 100 mph pitchers (which is something Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron NEVER had to deal with)?

Also, we're talking about Baseball. It's not the same thing as talking about a football lineman where strength is the paramount issue. I'm not sure how many of these folks have ever played baseball, but those of us who have know that it requires a lot more than just muscle to get a hit, let alone a home run......

Steroids also won't really help in any of the other important issues, such as throwing accuracy, judging a fly ball, etc.

For those who think that steroids in baseball is news, I have some more news for you:

Michael Jackson is a freak

OJ was/is guilty

Inflation WILL happen

The Xterra is manufactured by Nissan

Jose Canseco does NOT have a baseball career

-

So don't let the media and Canseco make you think that steroids is any more of an issue than it was 5 years ago. This "grand inquisition" won't change a thing. Illegal drugs will always be there, regardless of testing or deterrence.

Let's get on with the game......

Play-ball!

It won't be a game anymore, it will be like WWE...Baseball Entertainment.

Not a sport....

Like I said.....

Steroids have been around since the 30's and used pretty extensively since WWII.

Were you watching baseball before that?

If not, then nothing has changed!

Also, It will never help ANYBODY hit a 95mph fastball, throw a curve ball, or pick off a runner who's trying to steal second.

It will help you smack some more home runs if you have any hand eye.

That is very debateable, and you are probably wrong on that one.

Spoken like somebody who's never played.

Granted roids will not make the eyes better or give some athlete something they didn't have in the first place, like raw natural talent. But one thing without question is that is does improve bat speed. One comment by a former hitting coach for the Pirates said when Barry was in his 30's there was a noticable decrease in his muscular physique and his stamina. Now in his 40's he has gained what he lost and then some. Yes the roids wont help a batter see the ball better but it "could" give them that extra 1/100th of a sec to see that ball because they can move that bat faster.

Fuck, haven't we talked about this more than once already?

It doesn't matter if it helps them see the ball, or make contact with it. That's a moot point.

MLB PLAYERS ARE ALREADY THE BEST IN THE WORLD AT HITTING A BASEBALL!

It's the power behind the contact that's the point. Or the power behind the pitch.

Christ all fuck! :rolleyes:

More than anything else it aids in recovery.

Pope's last words?

Heh...Tats, you kill me - bitch.

I've played baseball and football for a Division II college and I have to disagree.

• Steroid use became en vogue in U.S. professional sports in the late 60's with the height of use being in the late 70's.
• With steroids a 350 foot pop up turns into a 400 foot home run.
• With steroids an 85mph fastball turns into a 90mph fastball.
• With steroids a player can shave a couple hundreths of a second off of their base stealing time.
• With steroids a catcher can decrease the time it takes to throw a baseball from homeplate to second base.
• With steroids an outfielder can throw home without the aid of a cutoff man.

All of the above can alter the game dramatically. Granted, a player must still have talent and skill and religiously prepare but add steroids into the mix and you have a player that has drastically increased the level of their game.

This is the key. The reason players didnt put up the numbers they did before steroids had to do with the natural physical highs and lows of a long season.

A steroid user experiences much less down time. They are always at thier peak. They are just as fresh in July-August-September as they were in May-June.

Sounds to me like you agree on this point. One of the points that I made was that Steroid use is not new. It's been available since the 30's!

There's no evidence that more strength translates into more bat speed. It does, however, mean that a heavier bat can be used. I agree with you that it is possible to gain a small advantage there. Where you got your estimation of ~15%, I don't know (not feasible).

For throwing:
Pitching mechanics, practice and genetics (i.e. height) determine ball speed. Not raw strength. That's why guys like Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan can throw much harder than guys like McGwire and Giambi.

I agree 100%

Possibly so.

Steroids will only appreciably affect the weakest outfielders' throwing ability.

I agree it can alter the game, Vince. But from what? Steroids have been around for seven decades. For most of that time, there hasn't been any testing. So my point is this. Steroids is a problem. It has been for a long time. I just don't see it as being any more a problem today than it was before some down-and-out player decided to make some money on a book.

BS. Ben Johnson only saved a few hundredths of a second off his 100 meter time, when he was on the 'roids. So you're saying in 90', they're going to shave off a couple hundredths of a second? I think not. Maybe, just maybe, a few hundred thousanths of a second, but even that is debateable...

Maris hit 61 homers in 162 games = .377 homers/game. Bonds hit 72 in 162 = .444 homers/game. In all honesty, that's not a huge difference. Heck, that's only 67 thousands of a percentage better. Considering how much larger and stronger(that, and w/ the degredation of pitching over the past 15 years (we've all heard the whining that because of all the new expansion teams, it's getting harder and harder to find enough quality pitchers. Seems that's all they [sports writers] could talk about in the 90s.), I honestly don't think the 'roids have made a tremendous impact on it all.

Hey, if the pitchers and hitters are all using 'roids, then it's a level playing field again...

But in the end, who cares? It's an illegal product. It's a legal issue; something for the justice department to sort out.

Pure physics buddy. Swing a bat that is 15% heavier you add 15% more energy being transfered to the ball, leading to 15% more distance. If you use the same bat size with more power, the bat speed will increase.

Holy crap? We're going to talk about this again? :rolleyes: Not to be a Brent, but search "steroids" in this forum and read all that comes up.
I'm still waiting for a link on this. Everything I've read said steroids was in testing in the 50's and did not hit the sports world until the late 60's/early 70's. I'm open to see what other real sources say. Either way, WWII was still after Ruth.
It's all relative. All the players around Ruth and Aaron played the same as everyone else. Yet they shined above the rest. Hell, Ruth sometimes had more homeruns than entire teams.
Here we go again, again. I can't think of one person that has argued that steroids makes you a "baseball player". Show me one and I will laugh at his face for not knowing what the hell he is talking about. To make it to the Majors, you have to have some of the best talent and skills in the game. The problem with steroids is mainly in the hitting, IMO. Some say it does actually make you throw harder, but I haven't seen any evidence to prove it. Anyway, back to hitting. If you already have the talent to hit the ball, you're going to hit it farther (warning track power becomes a home run, etc.) based on the physics and what everyone else has said in this thread. How can it help pitchers? Well, if it doesn't make you throw harder, it sure as hell helps you heal faster after an injury (that right there is cheating compared to those who aren't juiced). And, finally, you have everyone but Mark "I'm not here to talk about the past" McGwire saying steroids is cheating. Giambi, Canseco and Caminiti have all credited steroids to their MVPs. There's just no arguing that. If it didn't help, they wouldn't do it. It's cheating plain and simple.
I agree.. let's get it on. However, as a true baseball fan... I want to know what I am seeing is legit. Since steroids is proven as cheating, that would not make it legit. Finally, baseball records are the most important/sacred records in all of sports. I'd hate to see someone who earned a record legitimately get beatin' out by a "cheater".

With the proper training, steroids can make your twitch muscles faster and stronger, effectively allowing you to do things faster like inreasing bat speed.

Just because you gain muscle mass, it doesn't make you slow. Look at a guy like Barry Sanders. His legs were humoungous, would that make him slow? No, it made him quicker.

You can do endurance training instead of strength/mass training that would increase your speed.

Saying that steroids in baseball isn't a big deal is a joke. It is cheating, it is illegal, and it makes a mockery out of the sport.

Exactly!

It is cheating.

Just no more than it was 5, ten, twenty or forty years ago!

I just think that it's funny that nobody can hold a candle to the liquor-chuggin', bacon-eating, womanizing Bambino.

Babe Ruth:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ruthba01.shtml

.342 lifetime batting average

He AVERAGED 143 RBI's per 162 games.

Averaged 1 HR/11.8 AB

.690 career slugging percentage.

45 2B in a season that's a lot, even for a quick little guy

They can juice up all they want. They still can't touch him (IMO). At 703 HR, Bonds was about 1500 AB beyond Ruth's career.......

Babe was the king that is for sure but I don't think you can really compare the game as it is played today with how it was back then. For instance, MLB draws from different countries and cultures today, then it was mostly white Americans. Not saying they weren't good, but the talent pool was definitely smaller. Relief pitchers, pitch hitters, night games, all of these affect the game as it is played today. If Babe were alive today and playing I still think he'd knock the snot out of the ball, just not as well due to the better pitching, relief pitchers, etc.

But he would also have the benefit of modern nutrition, steroids and exercise!

I think he would hit 80!!

MaloCS (you know ever time I see your name I think Malox.)

Great post!

Now add to that the ability to train harder or heavier and more effeciently with shorter rest time during workouts than someone not using 'roids.

It's a dream world where shuttle runs and quickness drills don't wear you out and you just feel stronger and faster.

Then factor in quicker recovery time between workouts and less required rest time.

Now try telling a guy that's busting his ass to do it clean that using drugs isn't cheating.

Who gives a shit about baseball ?

There is the real question, actually I prefer:

Who gives a shit about baseball ANYMORE?

The players ruined a good thing.

I must admit... mainly those who played the game and were good at it still love baseball. Those that sucked at it no longer care. Too bad the players union ruined it for those type of fans.
I agree. I blame the players union too. They are the main reason for the sport's major problems. Then again, it would be nice if the owners and commish had a pair. Still, the main problems are because of the player's union and their greed.