Okay I know that Iraq is an ongoing hot-button issue. But there's an article on CNN.com that, to me at least, emphasizes why these evil people need to be stopped. This is sick, cowardly, evil behavior. There is no way it can be justified. Makes me furious.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.main/index.html

Problem is, this sick, cowardly, evil behavior is the meat and drink of the middle east, and has been for centuries. It's nothing new, and it would happen no matter what we do. Do you think these things didn't happen before we were involved? If anybody believes that we are going to change the way of life and religious in-fighting over there, they are kidding themselves. It's their culture.

Look what's going on in Africa, and pretty much every other 3rd world country on this planet. We cannot be the worlds police and we cannot change other countries culture. We should either invade and conquer, or leave them to their business, but sticking our hand into the mess pulls us into their bullshit. Until the populations themselves want change, it'll be status quo.

I agree. You simply can't change their values, or lack thereof. You can't help people who can't help themselves.

Agreed. I don't at all claim to know the solution to this Iraq situation. But I do know that it's a noble thing to stand up for those who can't stand up themselves. I also know that what you say is true. Warfare is what these people know and have known for thousands of years. More than that, it's what their sick, deeply evil ideology requires of them. What it doesn't require is for these men to be so freaking cowardly that they would take advantage of defenseless people and force them to die for their own cause...a cause they won't die for themselves. It is cowardice on an unbelievable scale. These people call US the Great Satan??? Positively vile behavior.

I agree, sadly this type of warfare is impossible to combat and these types of people will exist forever.

Yeah. I read about this on a newspaper's web site. Al Qaeda strapping bombs to people with downs syndrome.

Kind of seems a bit desperate on their part.

Did you miss the part where the attack was attributed to Al Qaeda, not religious infighting?

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Look what's going on in Africa, and pretty much every other 3rd world country on this planet. We cannot be the worlds police and we cannot change other countries culture. We should either invade and conquer, or leave them to their business, but sticking our hand into the mess pulls us into their bullshit. Until the populations themselves want change, it'll be status quo.

Are we playing world police in Africa?

What business should we leave these people to? Creating nuclear bombs perhaps?

This particular attack may have been attributed to Al Qaeda but suicide attacks in the Middle East are hardly anything new right? Will they stop based on our actions over there? Is the Middle East not rife with religious turmoil? Hasn't it always been? Short of total annihilation or conquering the countries outright, how are we to change their culture if they themselves don't want change? I'm not just talking Iraq here, I'm talking about any country.

We have no right to tell any country how to operate, period and with Pakistan and India already a nuclear power, i'd say that cat is already out of the bag.

Sooo, you let them duke it out, until one day, one of the Strongest, comes over here and tries to defeat us. To institute the Muslim Religion or else. Caliphate, I think it is called.

No thanks, let's take the fight to them, we've proven that we can kill them and will continue to do so as long as the Nay sayers and Libs quit yapping about how we are prosecuting an "Illegal War" and banting about their BDS.

We are winning, although the Definition of that is based on who you ask. If you ask me (I know this is the Internet and no one cares) we are and it is due to, you guessed it, Bush. Without him and ALGORE in his place, who knows what capitulation we would be enduring after 9/11.

We know (ok Conservatives and Libs who see the Intelligence) that Clinton had the chance to deal with this threat, instead he was getting down with the Women and felt it was a UN or Police issue that didn't involve us. Although we were directly attacked (OK Jew haters step in here) and did nothing about it.

The point is:
- We are right and Freedom is something that when people have a taste of, they will continue to crave, until death.

- The World is and will continue to be a better place because WE have an outstanding Volunteer Military and we (Conservatives) aren't afraid to use it for the RIGHT reasons (no asprin factories here).

- Libs will be politically motivated to keep their power regardless of who stands in their way and Damn the Country in the process and promise anything to get it.

- Other Nations will follow suit, when their ass is on the line. Evidenced by the elections in Germany, France, etc. of Conservative Lite vs. Liberal Politicians

Now if we could just get some better choices when we vote in Nov. I despise McCain (I'm from AZ) and cannot stomach him being a President, but only hate him a little less than Billary. Can't vote for Obama, who promises something, but has no track record of delivering anything (not to mention I don't want it).

So what's left? Paulbots chime in here? A third party that is closer to the R then the D, which therefore assures a D in the highest office (siphoning Votes)?

I guess we will see.

[/rant]

Well, one thing is for sure. You certainly make a good argument not to let any more Muslims emigrate to this country anymore.

Most suicide bombing attacks have been and are done by the Islamic terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda. Before anyone ever heard of AQ, it was the Palestinian terrorist organizations, or the Iran backed Hezbollah that were in the news all the time.

Has the Middle East always been rife with religious turmoil? The quick answer can be Yes, but it's probably a bit more complex than just that.

Countries such as Lebanon were once beautiful and nice countries. The recent rise of Islamism has destroyed that country. Christians and Muslims did used to live fairly peacefully side by side in that country.

Turkey is a modern, pretty much all Muslim country. You can even say it is fairly Westernized to many degrees. It was an extremely difficult road to drag that country into the 20th century when Ataturk did it. He was forced to kill a lot of people to do it. There are still Islamic fanatics that would like to take control of the country.

No doubt that Islamism is on the rise among the Islamic populations not only of the Middle East, but of Asia and Africa too.

Some of the most radical mosques preaching jihad and Islamism aren't even in the Middle East. Many are in Europe. Particularly London. History has also revealed some have been right here in the United States as past terrorist plots have revealed.

Everything cannot be condensed down into some Ron Paul type soundbite extolling isolationism.

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We have no right to tell any country how to operate, period and with Pakistan and India already a nuclear power, i'd say that cat is already out of the bag.

Who exactly are we telling how to operate? If so, how is it not a two way street?

If another country wants something from us, we have a right to seek things in our own self interest. All nations act in their own interests.

If we aren't engaged with the world, the world would be engaging with someone else. With the political and financial rise of the China superpower, we better be friggin engaged and involved with other countries. To not do so would be to our detriment.

Regarding nuclear weapons, yes we do have not only a right, but a clear interest in not allowing terrorist sponsoring rogue nations from acquiring nuclear weapons. That is clearly in the interest of this country and many other countries.

I think a point is being missed here. I'm completely serious with this. I've studied Islam a fair amount, and I've talked at length with several friends who have read the Quran cover to cover. Also one of my best friends lives in Indonesia - the most populous and highly Islamic nation on earth. Here's what I believe...and this is completely un-PC...

Islam is 100% evil.

It is a sick, twisted religion that is based on, rooted in, founded upon, thrives on hatred, violence, revenge, bloodshed and warfare. It is the life's blood of Islam. Muslims like to use the phrase "Allah the Merciful." If you read the Quran, you will see in no uncertain terms that Allah is in no way merciful. And not only that, he requires his followers to be merciless. He commands them to kill all who dare defy Islam, no exceptions. Anyone who says this isn't true is simply denying the very words of their own holy book.

Since their religion is that hateful, and they are commanded to kill, we should never expect anything else from them. Libs want us to "talk" with them. They won't friggin' listen to us because they believe whole-heartedly that we are satan incarnate, and they have a direct order to kill us. The only thing they want to hear from our lips is "here's the keys to the kingdom."

I've done a considerable amount of studying of Islam over the years and I would definitely agree that it is an extremely troubling religion. I don't think I would go so far as to say it is 100% evil. It is without a doubt, a very easily perverted religion and system.

It's more than just a religion too. Most people forget that fact.

Because of political correctness in our society, an open and honest debate and discussion of Islam is not being allowed to take place in the public sphere.

If you want to talk about evil, political correctness itself has become a subtle form of evil.

Mohammed who founded Islam was without a doubt an extremely violent and psychotic man. He created Islam itself as a means of control, subjugation, and as a means to exact revenge on his enemies.

Well said. Much like Judaism, Islam is both a religion and a culture. And I would definitely agree that Political Correctness is a form of evil. Tact is one thing, wussiness is entirely another. And psychosis is yet another.

Some Muslims cannot see the contradiction raised by killing people because they called Islam violent.

Without minimizing the sheer lunacy of that, it's nonetheless important to keep things in perspective. Many, many people throughout history have suffered and died in the name of religion, whatever faith it might be. In the context of world history, Islam is just the soup de jour.

I agree that the acts described in the article are unimaginably evil. I disagree that it should illustrate why we fight. We should fight to defend our country and in the case of 9/11, to avenge ourselves on those responsible. Iraq fits neither of those objectives. I don't pretend that our military should never venture outside our borders, but nor should they be expected to fight evil wherever it is found for the sake of fighting evil. There's simply too much of it.

As other posters pointed out, as we discuss this, horrific things are going on in countries all over the world. We should do everything possible short of committing our military to stop it. Maybe one day we'll learn the lessons of Viet Nam, Somalia, and Iraq - we cannot and should not police the world.

Suicide bombings are a common occurance in the middle east and have been for many many years. Doesn't matter who is doing it. Doesn't matter if we are over in the Middle East or not. Once again I am not talking about Iraq specifically.

Please leave Ron Paul out of this. He has nothing to do with this. I am not his XOC representative.

India and pakistan?

[sarcasm]Fucking paulbot.... :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

I don't see our fight as being with Iraq. In all reality, I see the fight as being with Islam. and the mentality and ideology that accompany it. Political Correctness has gotten in the way of truth.

and they'll what? Throw a nuke at us? I'm more worried about N. Korea or Russia, India, Pakistan, China.... Any one of those nations could give up a nuke to the terrorists...

I'm not arguing going after Al Queada, but I still can't place how Iraq fits in. If it does, it does, won't change the fact that these atrocities like suicide bombing are going to stop.

We may be winning our war, I'm not denying it. But we are not changing the Iraqis culture or bringing them any more freedom than they had. I'll be proven right if we ever actually leave the region.

Clinton was a fucktard....

I don't buy that. We can't override a culture. Especially one that is as stepped in Islamic religion as the Iraqis.

I'd rather our nation be a better place first and worry about the world later. We aren't going to have that great of a military in a few years if our politicians keep dicking over the soldier with extended tours of duty etc. You need volunteers for an all volunteer military don't you? What's our recruitment numbers look like?

Change out libs with "politicians" and you'll have it right.

I don't know how this applies to suicide bombings in the Middle East but okay....

I agree

Not a paulbot, but we need some change. We need politicians who are concerned with our homefront more than anything else. If they truly were, then the foreign policy, our military etc. will all work out to our advantage. I don't see that happening anytime soon, no matter who is in office.

Yep.

I wasn't talking about Islam being both a culture and a religion. Islam is a religion and also an entire political system.

Islam has managed to slide itself into cultures that are varied and different. Asian culture is different than Middle Eastern culture. Most Muslims in the world do not live in the Middle East.

Political correctness is not evil because of some "wussiness". It's becoming a form of evil because of it's use to suppress truth, free speech, and control of thought. It is becoming Orwellian "Newspeak".

Suicide bombings are a common occurrence wherever Islamic terrorists groups operate. That is not restricted to the Middle East.

9-11 was a suicide terrorist attack.

They are also going to be happening with increased frequency right here in the West.

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Please leave Ron Paul out of this. He has nothing to do with this. I am not his XOC representative.

You've been starting to sound a little like him of late.

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India and pakistan?

India is not a terrorist sponsoring nation.

However, both countries built nuclear bombs during the 90's. A decade when we were not engaged much with the world and turned a blind eye to almost everything that was going on.

*cough*clinton*cough*

You mean go back to the 90's when we didn't worry about what was going on anywhere, then all of a sudden our embassies are being blown up, naval ships attacked, and nations are popping up with nuclear weapons and terrorists are planing operations right here in this country under our noses.

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Not a paulbot, but we need some change. We need politicians who are concerned with our homefront more than anything else. If they truly were, then the foreign policy, our military etc. will all work out to our advantage. I don't see that happening anytime soon, no matter who is in office.

Ignore the rest of the world and let them do whatever the hell they want.

Sounds like a Ronulan foreign policy.

That's never worked out and will never work out in the interconnected world of today.

I don't have much to add but I do follow these posts so I have fuel to use against my Ron Paulian friend.

I do have to say that from all I've read so far, I would have no problem backing a NYM/Rift ticket.

That's funny, picking someone from an Internet Forum. Maybe that's how the next election can be done?

All us Forumites (Yes I made that up) can rally up a debate and the winner gets all the votes.

Nah we'd never agree, especially when you see the Airplane Thread.

I would though, buy any of you a beer if you're in my area and shoot the bull S around over Politics as long it stays civil.