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#380398 - 19/07/06 12:16 AM
Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 28/08/01
Posts: 4806
Loc: East Bay, CA
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Here's the situation.
1 out
runners on 3rd and 2nd.
Batter hits a fly to center and its caught. Runner on 3rd tags up and scores. Runner from 2nd, does not tag and gets thrown out at 2nd on his way back to tag.
That's out #3.
Does the run count?
This happened tonight at a softball game I played in and the two teams couldn't decide who was right. The game ended up being tied - so it actually mattered.
Does the run count?
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There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count; and those who can't.
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#380399 - 19/07/06 12:47 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
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If the guy on third crossed home plate BEFORE the guy on second was out...THEN the run scores. If the guy on second was out BEFORE the guy from third hit home, then the 3rd out occurred before the runner scored. Think of it this way...lets say the guy on third tagged, and ran home and scored... ...and the guy on second just stood there with his lead off of 2nd...and no one threw him out, they just ignored it, and threw the ball to the pitcher, and started pitching to the next batter... Sure, he'd STILL need to get back to 2nd BEFORE he coud go to third...but, he's not OUT until they tag him, or the second base bag with him off it still. Does that make sense? 
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- TJ 2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes.... Friends don't let friends drive stock. http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif
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#380400 - 19/07/06 05:20 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 45
Loc: Southern Central, PA, USA
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I agree with TJ. It depends on which occurred first. If the runner from 3rd crossed the plate before the runner on second was out, the run counts. If the runner on 2nd is out before the runner from 3rd crosses the plate, inning over, no run.
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#380401 - 19/07/06 05:40 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
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The run does not count if the guy on 2nd never went back to touch 2nd. He is considered forced out at 2nd. Let's say he tagged, but left early... same thing. The pitcher would step on the mound and then step off and appeal to 2nd. If he left early, the runner would be out and the run would not have counted. No matter if the guy on 3rd crossed the plate first, you have to tag up at 2nd or you're considered forced out. Just like when there's a runner on 3rd... If you hit the ball and the guy on third touches the plate and then the guy is thrown out at first, the run doesn't count.
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Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.
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#380402 - 19/07/06 06:09 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
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Isn't he only forced out if they throw to 2nd?
_________________________
- TJ 2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes.... Friends don't let friends drive stock. http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif
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#380403 - 19/07/06 06:25 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 45
Loc: Southern Central, PA, USA
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Because the runner is not forced to advance on the play, it is not a force out. If the runner returns to the base before the ball gets there, it is a moot point. The appeal process where the pitcher would step on the mount then throw to 2nd would not be an out. This would be true if the runner advanced to 3rd without tagging up and didn't return to 2nd. Again, though, because it is not a force play, if the runner crosses the plate first, it counts.
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#380404 - 19/07/06 06:37 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
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Yeah, that's my understanding as well...its only a force out, if there were no choice, IE: He is FORCED out. Lets put it this way...what if there's no one on base, EXCEPT the guy at second....and he doesn't tag up on a pop fly out...he just stands there with his lead. When is he out? I believe that technically, he is not out unless: the ball gets to 2nd or he's tagged, before he gets back. The runner on third doesn't change anything.
_________________________
- TJ 2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes.... Friends don't let friends drive stock. http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif
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#380405 - 19/07/06 07:31 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
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You guys are right! Here it is in the MLB rules (I assume it's the same for softball): A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. KJ, if they didn't call it a run, someone got screwed. I can totally see why the confusion though because I thought for sure it was considered a force out. Not true.
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Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.
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#380406 - 19/07/06 08:18 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
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Its just logic really. Of course, MLB rules can avoid logic at times... :rolleyes:
_________________________
- TJ 2001 Xterra '03 VG33, SE 5 spd, 305/70/16's, Revolvers, UBSkidderz, Doubled AAL's, 3"SL/2"BL, winch/bumpers, skids, sliders, OBA, Snorkel, pine stripes.... Friends don't let friends drive stock. http://www.gifsoup.com/view/501230/tj-tackling-crawlers-ridge-o.gif
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#380408 - 19/07/06 09:07 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
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That is correct. I got a good crash course on the rules today. ![[Smoking]](graemlins/smokin.gif) Force outs are the only thing that keeps the run from counting no matter if they cross the plate first or not. That was my whole confusion. I was under the impression that if a runner doesn't tag up and you get the ball back to the base before he gets there, it's a force. As I showed, that's not considered a force out.
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Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.
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#380409 - 19/07/06 11:32 AM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 28/08/01
Posts: 4806
Loc: East Bay, CA
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Thanks guys... Some clarification.
The runner from 2nd, actually got past 3rd and was halfway home - when he realized his error and then ran ACROSS the diamond (skipping 3rd) to get back to 2nd. Nobody knows if the run scored before the 2nd runner ran outta the basepath.
Let's say for discussion sake - that its the same situation - but both runners tagged. But the runner from 2nd got thrown out sliding into 3rd. And let's say that the runner from 3rd cross home before the 3rd out. Does the run count?
_________________________
There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count; and those who can't.
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#380410 - 19/07/06 12:17 PM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 45
Loc: Southern Central, PA, USA
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Yep, the run would count as long as he crossed the plate before the runner from 2nd was thrown out at 3rd. This isn't a force play, so any action that occurs prior to the 3rd out counts.
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#380411 - 19/07/06 12:18 PM
Re: Baseball Rules Question
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Member
Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 4411
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
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Originally posted by KJ_dragon:
Let's say for discussion sake - that its the same situation - but both runners tagged. But the runner from 2nd got thrown out sliding into 3rd. And let's say that the runner from 3rd cross home before the 3rd out. Does the run count? Yes, if the runner on 3rd crosses the plate before the out is made, the run counts. It's pretty much the same thing as your previous example.
_________________________
Hoosier by birth, Red Raider by choice... like KNIGHT and day.
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