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#203319 - 23/08/03 11:57 PM Re: Alabama.
XOC Offline
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Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
Yea in 1802. In a letter.
That's a lot more evidence than some fictional words written 2000 years ago, or were they carved into stone by a lightining bolt, I forget.

The 10 Commandments are a nice set of moral recommendations for a civilized race to live by, but face it, this planet will never reach that level.
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#203320 - 24/08/03 04:04 AM Re: Alabama.
eoddvr Offline
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Registered: 15/08/01
Posts: 162
Loc: Millersville MD
The laws regarding "separation of church and state" are about preventing the government from forcing one particular religion upon the people. If is about Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion.

This is why God is mentioned in so many civil venues, like "In God we trust."

Sadly, part of the reason that we have so many problems in the country is because we have used the notion of separation of church and state to prevent freedom of religion.

For example, I do not think that students should be forced to pray in school or that a crowd at a football game should be forced to pray before the game. But I do not think it is wrong for individuals to eercise their right to do so.

In my mind the real argument here should be along the notion of whether or not people attending court should be forced to view a religious document that they may or may not agree to.

I think it is appropriated in this case because The Ten Commandments are the basis for much of western law.
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#203321 - 24/08/03 07:14 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eoddvr:
The laws regarding "separation of church and state" are about preventing the government from forcing one particular religion upon the people. If is about Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion.
It means both.

Quote:
This is why God is mentioned in so many civil venues, like "In God we trust."
Find me one thing that says "In God We Trust" that was around in the first hundred years of this country's existence (hint - you can't). It wasn't even on coinage until the 1950s (it did make a couple appearances in the 1860s, but wasn't regularly on money). It wasn't passed as the national motto until the 1950s (you know...that McCarthy era).

Quote:

I think it is appropriated in this case because The Ten Commandments are the basis for much of western law.
Ironically, if you use the same argument other's use - that "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution or bill of rights... Find one mention of "God" in it. Hint - it's not there.
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#203322 - 24/08/03 07:29 AM Re: Alabama.
MBFlyerfan Offline
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Registered: 30/04/01
Posts: 4450
Loc: NJ, Just east of the Walt.
Quote:
Originally posted by xoc:
Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
[b]Yea in 1802. In a letter.
That's a lot more evidence than some fictional words written 2000 years ago, or were they carved into stone by a lightining bolt, I forget.

The 10 Commandments are a nice set of moral recommendations for a civilized race to live by, but face it, this planet will never reach that level.[/b]
Evidence of what? Evidence that it is not in the constitution. The ten commandments are a good set of guidelines written by some dude 2000 years ago, yes, I get it.

There is a great deal of difference to the quote "seperation of church and state", and "build a wall of seperation between church and state." The first has finality, the second (and what was actually written) leaves room for interpretation.

No we can take this all sorts of ways. I am offended by rap music being played at loud volumes by cars with giant subwoofers. So maybe we should ban it. I am only a minority in this, but we must protect the offended minorities at all costs.

I have never been to court and felt intimidated or discriminated in any way because I was an atheist. In fact, the tenet of my religious beliefs were never even brought up.

The government, even if it has the commandments on the steps, can only be proven to be establishing a state religion if you can show actual bias against a person being tried in said courtroom because they are non jew/christian. You could then show "establishment" because obviously it would be beneficial to be the religion of the goverment.

On a side note, it is quite obvious that the majority of our government are practicing christians/jews. And, if anything, being a religious person in this country right now is quite an unpopular thing. So that hardly qualifies as establishment.

And as for "In God We Trust," will someone please explain to me how this establishes one religion over another. Which God?!

One more thing. When the founding fathers wrote that ammendment, you can be damn sure they were talking about different sects of christianity. This, after all is what many of them came over here for to begin with. So they could practice thier christianity in peace. Free from a state sponsored version of whatever type of christianity was sanctioned. Free from being persecuted for not following the government line.

It did not mean the government needed to be all atheists. It meant they could be whatever religion they wanted to be without forcing thier 'subjects' to be the same religion. I still do not see how having a ten commandments on a step forces people to be christian or jew. And if people feel like it does, then they should get their weak minds over it. And then prove to me how it has forced them to be jewish or christian.
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#203323 - 24/08/03 08:22 AM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBFlyerfan:
No we can take this all sorts of ways. I am offended by rap music being played at loud volumes by cars with giant subwoofers. So maybe we should ban it. I am only a minority in this, but we must protect the offended minorities at all costs.
I'm not sure I get this example. Yes, you CAN ban the volume. Just not the material. Plenty of cities have banned loud music.

Quote:
And as for "In God We Trust," will someone please explain to me how this establishes one religion over another. Which God?!
It doesn't. But is that the Christian God, or the the Muslim God, or the God that Deists believe in? To me, they are all the same. People just believe differently as to how to acknowledge it.

Quote:
One more thing. When the founding fathers wrote that ammendment, you can be damn sure they were talking about different sects of christianity. This, after all is what many of them came over here for to begin with. So they could practice thier christianity in peace.
How can anyone be sure? Isn't that what the courts grapple with all the time? A good portion of the founding fathers were indeed deists. Others, of course, were theists. There is a HUGE difference there.

Quote:
Free from a state sponsored version of whatever type of christianity was sanctioned. Free from being persecuted for not following the government line.

It did not mean the government needed to be all atheists. It meant they could be whatever religion they wanted to be without forcing thier 'subjects' to be the same religion.
Personally, I think you are confusing an employee of the government with the government itself. Nobody cares what the individual is, or what the individual does. Going by what you are saying (if I'm understanding it correctly) is that Bush should not be attending church - or at least it shouldn't be shown in pictures or television. But that isn't what the argument is about. It's that each individual is free to worship as they please, or be FREE from other people's beliefs. Bush goes to church as an individual, on his own free time (well, relatively speaking...how much free does he really have). He's not attending church at the Capitol building.

Quote:
I still do not see how having a ten commandments on a step forces people to be christian or jew. And if people feel like it does, then they should get their weak minds over it. And then prove to me how it has forced them to be jewish or christian.
But why does someone feel like it HAS to be there? Should they not get their weak minds over it and realize that spirituality/religion is within themselves and that is more powerful than any hunk of stone in a rotunda?

Not having it there is being secular (aka neutral). And that is what the government (not the employees of the government) should be.

WE are the employers of the government. How would you feel if one of your employees was a Wiccan, and decided they wanted to put a Wiccan monument in the middle of the foyer to your business? Would you allow it? Or would you ask them to keep it in their own office? Or, to keep it on a Judeo-Christian level, what if that employee wanted to put a crucifix on the wall of the lobby? It may not be the company's view, but it sure looks like it if it's on the lobby wall.
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#203324 - 25/08/03 05:59 AM Re: Alabama.
Xterrian Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 2014
Loc: Fort Lewis, WA
Quote:
Originally posted by PNUTMNM:
Quote:
Originally posted by xterrapin:
[qb] The rule of law is all that exists.
This is an incredibly ignorant statement. Judges make "judgement" calls. They define the law, they create laws, they interpret laws. QB]
Where and how exactly do Judges create laws?
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#203325 - 25/08/03 07:05 AM Re: Alabama.
20-100 Offline
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Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Quebec, QC, Canada
Quote:
In god we trust
This simple statement exclude all the polytheist religious people... At least, change it to "In god(s) we trust"

Now back to the case of the infamous rotunda stone... I'm not sure... if the judge know that I'm an apostat and atheist, maybe I will be judged more harshly than if I was in the choir of his church... but... if the stone is not there to show the bias of the judge... maybe I'll go to trial without knowing that the judge is biased...

IMHO, judges are human so permitting a judge to show his colors is ok, in the same way that a defense attorney will look at the records to see how a judge is doing with the kind of crime he have to defend. I guess it's possible to request a change of judge if a bias can be proven.

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#203326 - 25/08/03 05:49 PM Re: Alabama.
off2cjb Offline
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Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.

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#203327 - 25/08/03 06:19 PM Re: Alabama.
NY Madman Offline
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Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 5232
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:

One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.
I don't necessarily think this is true.

This is a debate that has been around for hundreds of years. Perhaps in theory, the origins of each religion can all be traced back to the Hebrew God. However the application and interpretations that have developed over the centuries are vastly different.

There are numerous members of each religion that would disagree with your statement.

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#203328 - 25/08/03 06:23 PM Re: Alabama.
Mobycat Offline
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Registered: 12/09/00
Posts: 8374
Loc: the hue of dungeons and the sc...
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
One last time people; Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the exact same GOD. The only difference is the name they call Him. Get it, Got it, Good.
I agree. (Scary! laugh )
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#203329 - 28/08/03 11:33 AM Re: Alabama.
coferj Offline
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Registered: 17/12/01
Posts: 713
Loc: Montgomery, AL
Well, thank goodness it's finally gone...but now there are lawsuits springing up from the supporters about the gov't infringing on the "freedom of religion" in the bill of rights.

Thing is, all these hicks want the statue to remain b/c they say it's freedom of religion, etc...well, being that it's a STATE building, and the STATE removed it, how is it infringing on THEIR rights??
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