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#211271 - 08/12/05 07:07 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
jorge Offline
Member

Registered: 27/11/00
Posts: 1147
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by MediStorm:
He got what he had comming to him.
Have you ever had someone who was mentally ill that you loved? Did he deserve to die?

I see this as a tragedy, he wasn't out to harm anyone. His wife convinced him to fly even though he was pretty much insane. So he was off his meds and went bizzerk. What the air martials did was fine, they were doing their job. But still, it's sad something like this happens. Another needless death.
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#211272 - 08/12/05 07:16 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
Quote:
Originally posted by MediStorm:
[b]He got what he had comming to him.
His wife convinced him to fly even though he was pretty much insane. .[/b]
Another time someones wife made a guy do something he didn't. Its a conspiracy I tell you! All kidding aside, she should have had the common sense to make sure he took his meds before he boarded. She of all people should have known something could have happened with him as soon as he got around that many people in that congested of an area. I'd say part of the blame lies with her.

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#211273 - 08/12/05 07:19 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


For anyone who seriously thinks:
Quote:

He got what he had comming to him. Good to see due process step aside and let crime control win once in a while.
...let me share 2 true stories with you:
About a year ago in California a man took a woman hostage at gunpoint. Swat was called in a surrounded the scene. A street officer snuck up on the man while he was talking to the hostage negotiator and at point blank range shot the man in the face. Dead. Turns out the man was retarded, about 4 years old mentally, and the gun was a toy. THE SAME WEEK in England, two officers were called to a house where a man had broken in and taken the housewife hostage at knife point (guns are illegal in Britain). The constables kept swat outside and talked to the man for 2 hours, finally convincing him to hand over the knife, let the woman go, and come with them to seek help... which he eventually did. End of story.
I have a house and family in Los Angeles, and a house and family in Britain. I know which environment I prefer for my family... how about you?

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#211274 - 08/12/05 07:22 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by sarmike:
For anyone who seriously thinks:
Quote:

[b]He got what he had comming to him. Good to see due process step aside and let crime control win once in a while.
...let me share 2 true stories with you:
About a year ago in California a man took a woman hostage at gunpoint. Swat was called in a surrounded the scene. A street officer snuck up on the man while he was talking to the hostage negotiator and at point blank range shot the man in the face. Dead. Turns out the man was retarded, about 4 years old mentally, and the gun was a toy. THE SAME WEEK in England, two officers were called to a house where a man had broken in and taken the housewife hostage at knife point (guns are illegal in Britain). The constables kept swat outside and talked to the man for 2 hours, finally convincing him to hand over the knife, let the woman go, and come with them to seek help... which he eventually did. End of story.
I have a house and family in Los Angeles, and a house and family in Britain. I know which environment I prefer for my family... how about you?[/b]
I had friends whose house was broken into by someone who was mentally not all there. He killed the husband with a 2x4 before the wife was able to shoot him with a 12 gauge. What's your point?

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#211275 - 08/12/05 07:28 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Origami Gangsta Offline
Member

Registered: 24/05/01
Posts: 6497
Loc: Dammit! Even CLOSER to Smith a...
And the moral of your story is........... (insert drum roll here)

Don't fucking take people hostage.

We can sit here and point the finger all we want, and come up with all the excuses (insane, retarded, etc.). But I say fuck that. There isn't always any time to sort that out. The marshal had to make a split-second decision, and he made the right one.

It's like people who defend a douchebag who got his ass capped after he broke into somebody's house. When you threaten someone else's life, be prepared to die yourself. It just might happen.
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#211276 - 08/12/05 07:50 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
TJ Offline
Member
*****

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 7756
Loc: Lawrenceville, NJ, USA
Its a case of suicide by cop.

If there WAS a bomb, it would be different.

If you pretend to be a danger to people the cop has to protect, and get shot as a result, as cops do not have your medical records handy most of the time, its called commiting suicide.

The sad fact is that the average IQ in our prison system is about 70.

Maybe the ones with more cranial fire power don't get caught as often...or maybe the wit-chalenged have a harder time getting a decent job, and a harder time making good decisions to compensate for that.

Bipolar people are almost never violent. They typically are somewhere between wanting to die, and wanting to paint the house while learning russian and planting a garden...maybe all within the same hour, etc.

If you want to die, but don't want to do it yourself, you can get someone else to do it for you...walking in front of an oncoming car/train, etc...pretending to be a bad guy so the cops shoot you to death, etc.

So the fact that a bad guy is really stupid or crazy doesn't change the situation much, they still represent a threat at the time, and I for one would not want to be the cop standing there with my gun out, watching some guy with a potential bomb or AK-47 in his hand, trying to decide if when he pulls the trigger/switch, anything might happen.

If I'm the cop, and I have a second to decide if I have to shoot or call the bluff, I think I'd shoot.

If the guy's wife is yelling "He's off his meds, and trying to get you to shoot him", rather than "He's off his meds, don't shoot him", I might go for a leg shot, etc. as a compromise, or tell HER to go and get the overnight bag/AK-47 from him, etc.

I've been shot, it hurts like a Mo Fo...but if I was a lunitic with a bomb switch, and I wanted to set it off, I think I could flick a switch unless the shot took me out completely...so, you have to shoot to kill/hit center of mass, etc.

Someone else was complaining to me that they should have just wounded him, not killed him, like just shoot him in the hand....

I said that's in the movies, real cops are lucky under a situation like that to hit ANYTHING with a handgun, let alone miss his head and hit his hand, etc...you aim at his middle, and hope you don't miss him completely.

laugh

If you are the air marshall, and the guy gets to blow up the bomb he says he has...you screwed up big time.

If you get him off the plane first, that's fine...but the guy and the threat has to be neutralized, that's job one.

So - I feel sorry for all involved, but what happened did not have too many practical alternative endings.

frown
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#211277 - 08/12/05 08:18 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by sarmike:

I have a house and family in Los Angeles, and a house and family in Britain.
You have two houses and two families?

Isn't bigamy illegal?

As far as the dead dude -- I understand where you're coming from. Isn't hindsight a remarkable luxury?

The guy, on a crowded plane, indicated he had a bomb. Not a knife (which takes time to kill with), or a gun (which could kill a few people before he is taken down) . . . but a bomb. A split-second, and a hundred, maybe two hundred people could be dead.

I don't really care what his mental disability was. Bi-polar? Take your meds. Depressed? Take your meds. Think you're Jesus? Go tell off2cjb . . . you two can chat.

But you do NOT -- EVER -- threaten the lives of a hundred people with an explosive device and expect to be talked down.

I think the marshals did the only thing they could do, and they did it well. [ThumbsUp]
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#211278 - 08/12/05 08:24 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
RedX Offline

Member
*****

Registered: 25/04/01
Posts: 2394
Loc: Granite Falls, NC
Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Quote:
Originally posted by sarmike:
[b]
I have a house and family in Los Angeles, and a house and family in Britain.
You have two houses and two families?

Isn't bigamy illegal?

As far as the dead dude -- I understand where you're coming from. Isn't hindsight a remarkable luxury?

The guy, on a crowded plane, indicated he had a bomb. Not a knife (which takes time to kill with), or a gun (which could kill a few people before he is taken down) . . . but a bomb. A split-second, and a hundred, maybe two hundred people could be dead.

I don't really care what his mental disability was. Bi-polar? Take your meds. Depressed? Take your meds. Think you're Jesus? Go tell off2cjb . . . you two can chat.

But you do NOT -- EVER -- threaten the lives of a hundred people with an explosive device and expect to be talked down.

I think the marshals did the only thing they could do, and they did it well. [ThumbsUp] [/b]
Exactly. [ThumbsUp]
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#211279 - 08/12/05 09:13 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Forgive the 'soapbox', but like TJ:
Quote:
Originally posted by TJ:
I've been shot, it hurts like a Mo Fo...
...having been shot and having shot at, my perspective is a little different. In my case (the short version)I was in the Rodney king riots in L.A. as a deputy, and two guys charged me while a third distracted me. I was undercover so didn't look armed, but as soon as one guy bounced his fist off my left cheek I whipped a 9mm up to his temple... eye to eye. I could tell he was surprised by the loud, "oh f*ck" comment... then I fired 'right beside his face' whereupon he and all his buddies vanished into thin air.
I reported the shooting, as required, and was promptly written up for discharging my weapon in public because it was considered a "justifiable kill" which I refused to make. Then I quit, and am much happier 'helping people' in SAR vs working under the option of having to decide who lives and who dies.

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#211280 - 08/12/05 09:18 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Many good arguements have been made in this thread. I think that, based on what I have heard through various news sources, that the air marshall did his job. They are there to project the plane from terrorists -- which is what this guy became as soon as he mentioned the word "bomb" on the plane.

I do have a family member who is bi-polar. I grew up seeing all sides of the disorder. One of those sides is violence and wanting to physically hurt other people. It's sad, but it is a fact of life.

If the air marshall had not done something and this guy really did have a bomb everybody would be saying that our air marshall system does not work... there would be congressional hearings... etc. etc. blah blah. It's pretty much a case of a no win situation.

My opinion, bottom line: the air marshall and the law enforcement did the right thing. Making those people exit the plane with their hands on their heads was good. Checking all their luggage was good. Blowing up the suspect luggage was good. What if that guy was a suicide bomber who was merely trying to flush out the air marshalls so that another terrorist on the plane could inflict a lot of casulties? These extremists seem to welcome dying for their cause.

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#211281 - 08/12/05 09:29 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Samueul Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 4114
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
Quote:
Originally posted by MediStorm:
[b]He got what he had comming to him.
Have you ever had someone who was mentally ill that you loved? Did he deserve to die?

I see this as a tragedy, he wasn't out to harm anyone. His wife convinced him to fly even though he was pretty much insane. So he was off his meds and went bizzerk. What the air martials did was fine, they were doing their job. But still, it's sad something like this happens. Another needless death.[/b]
100% agree. Situation sucked for everyone involved.
_________________________
Must stay away from political/religious debates. Must stay away........

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#211282 - 08/12/05 09:33 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Its only another needless death after the fact. Suppose they did find a bomb in his bags, is his death worthy now? The shooting was justified. An idiot lost his life. Boohoo. Maybe the next idiot who has this thought passing through his mind won't act on it now.

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#211283 - 08/12/05 10:09 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
Its only another needless death after the fact. Suppose they did find a bomb in his bags, is his death worthy now? The shooting was justified. An idiot lost his life. Boohoo. Maybe the next idiot who has this thought passing through his mind won't act on it now.
Mentally ill people are not idiots. They can't help their condition, though clearly he (and others in that condition) should do the things within their control to help themselves (like take their meds). All that aside, they still have families and friends who love them just like anyone else.

So while the man's behavior was bizarre, and the shooting justified, and the Air Marshals acted appropriately blah blah...it's still a tragedy. Dismissing a life so callously, and calling mentally ill people idiots, only shows your own ignorance.

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#211284 - 08/12/05 12:41 PM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSky42:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]Its only another needless death after the fact. Suppose they did find a bomb in his bags, is his death worthy now? The shooting was justified. An idiot lost his life. Boohoo. Maybe the next idiot who has this thought passing through his mind won't act on it now.
Mentally ill people are not idiots. They can't help their condition, though clearly he (and others in that condition) should do the things within their control to help themselves (like take their meds). All that aside, they still have families and friends who love them just like anyone else.

So while the man's behavior was bizarre, and the shooting justified, and the Air Marshals acted appropriately blah blah...it's still a tragedy. Dismissing a life so callously, and calling mentally ill people idiots, only shows your own ignorance.[/b]
Possible bipolar disorder, not proven. Then again, I don't believe in all these made-up mental illnesses just to cover for people who commit crimes or fail to get a job.

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#211285 - 08/12/05 02:06 PM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
BlueSky Offline
Member

Registered: 17/08/00
Posts: 2286
Loc: Georgia
Fair enough. We don't know the whole story on this guy. And you're right, there's a lot of "mental illness" that translates into "I don't want to take responsibility for what I did."

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#211286 - 08/12/05 03:52 PM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Weasel Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 924
Loc: San Antonio
Hey psychotic Christian nutjob, BiPolar Disorder is a real psycological condition.

You of all people should f**king know screwball.

I f**king hate everyone of your hate filled posts.

You're an embarrassment to everyone who goes to church.

[ThumbsDown]
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#211287 - 08/12/05 05:09 PM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


What did you think would happen? :rolleyes: Saying he got what had what he had comming to him has nothing to do with him being bi-polar, he made a bomb threat, which as I recall is a very serious offense, especially at an airport. Honestly, what do you expect the marshal to do? Ask him he's serious?

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#211288 - 09/12/05 03:59 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Weasel Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 924
Loc: San Antonio
No one said it wasn't comin to him.

People are just saying that it sucks cause he was just off his meds and went apeshit

Im just pissed at the local pharisee who has no idea what it is to be a Christian.
_________________________
Her: What the hell does David Hasselhoff know about football? This show is so stupid!

Me: Um, That's Dan Marino...

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#211289 - 09/12/05 07:09 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Weasel:
No one said it wasn't comin to him.

People are just saying that it sucks cause he was just off his meds and went apeshit

Im just pissed at the local pharisee who has no idea what it is to be a Christian.
Whatever. Could you please be more less smart. You are an embarrassment to human kind. Who says bipolar is a real mental disorder? Not me. Its just another made up illness so folks don't take responsibility. With that in mind, the kind pharmacuetical folks invented drugs to cure an invented mental disorder. Get over yourself. Take some responsibility for your own actions and quit blaming some made up disease.

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#211290 - 09/12/05 07:10 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Quote:
Originally posted by Weasel:
No one said it wasn't comin to him.

People are just saying that it sucks cause he was just off his meds and went apeshit

Im just pissed at the local pharisee who has no idea what it is to be a Christian.
Please oh glorious one, define Chrisitan!

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#211291 - 09/12/05 07:35 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
Could you please be more less smart.
Sorry...had to repost that sentence. I've never seen a more mindboggling example of bad grammar.

There's...like....fifteen things wrong with that sentence!

Not only that, it's got irony thrown in to boot! [LOL] [LOL] [LOL]

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#211292 - 09/12/05 07:44 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
GrayHam Offline
Member

Registered: 17/04/01
Posts: 8849
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
Please oh glorious one, define Chrisitan!
Isn't that what Chrisi is trying to get, when Janet leans out and pours a bucket of water on her?

You know, in the opening credits of "Three's Company"?



Come and knock on our door . . .
_________________________
Does anybody remember laughter?

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#211293 - 09/12/05 09:12 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by GrayHam:
Quote:
Originally posted by off2cjb:
[b]Please oh glorious one, define Chrisitan!
Isn't that what Chrisi is trying to get, when Janet leans out and pours a bucket of water on her?

You know, in the opening credits of "Three's Company"?



Come and knock on our door . . . [/b]
Ok, that one took me a minute, well done!

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#211294 - 09/12/05 09:17 AM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
off2cjb Offline
Member

Registered: 23/10/00
Posts: 4557
Nice one Grayham. Sorry about the spelling error.

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#211295 - 09/12/05 12:26 PM Re: Air marshall shoots suspect
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just another news story...
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html

If infact he did yell "bomb" the killing was justifiable. However, if as this article states no one yelled bomb and was just stressed about being in a confined space for X amount of hourse then I don't think it was. Otherwise that mean marshalls could kill anyone with a reaction to any phobia.

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