Yes, yes I do. It is the only way to win a war. Our citizens did it from the Revolutionary War on. The Boston Tea Party was the first act of US terrorism. It is the greatest weapon on Earth when used properly.

Dude you gotta help me here. How does that tie into Christian beliefs. Seriously I am trying to understand. You seem to be the most certain of your views. I know the old testament talks about an eye for and eye but I thought that Jesus taught peace and understanding.

OH man I do not want to hijack this thread at all. I spent way to much time taking people out of the Murrah bldg. so I understand the loss that people of NY are feeling. I hope with all hope that this shit never happens again.

I am good with the definition of terrorism. Hell the US has done it during several wars My Uncle was one of Carlson's Raiders in WWII. For those who don't know about this Marine Unit it was where the term Gung Ho came from. Never a tougher unit before or since. My mother was on the reciving end of bombings in Berlin in WWII.

My intrest was in the teachings of the bible. I had never heard it explained that way. Interesting point of view. Thank you.

I agree with “lover” who was provoked into a 1st post (“welcome” by the way). I think the US’s support for Israeli interests is the real fuel behind the 9/11 attacks. We need to be more even handed, neither party (Israeli/Palestinians) is particularly deserving of support. We need to resolve this issue before the fuel will disappear. (Granted…this is next to impossible at this point.)

Regarding events since 9/11, I was happy to see Bush propose the “road map” and to see Bush actively engaged with BOTH the Israelis and Palestinians (appeared reasonably evenhanded there for a while). This is a step in the right direction (although it is quickly disintegrating).

In defense of my naïve hope that Iraq will somehow be transformed into a peaceful democratic nation (which seems to be the new motivation for war since claims of WMD have gone unsubstantiated), I just WANT to believe that our soldiers have died for something. It’s infuriating the think that they have died or suffered in a war in which nothing has really been accomplished (which is almost certainly the case).

Recap of post 9/11 occurrences and benefit to national security:
(1)work with Israel/ Palestinians = GOOD, it’s a step
(2)war in Afghanistan, pursuit of terrorists = GOOD
(3)beefed up security at home = GOOD idea, insufficiently funded
(4)war with Iraq = BAD, unjustified, very expensive, nearly fruitless, and quite arrogant

And how many British citizens or soldiers were killed in this act of "US terrorism"? None. No one was killed, no innocent bystanders were murdered. The Boston Tea Party was an act of civil disobedience and has been described as an act of political theater. That's a long way of from the killing of the innocent.

In its shortest easiest maybe not precise way to put things: I don't want to see my military killed day in and day out month after month, year after year. Hit the enemy first with a huge punch to the face using whatever methods at hand. You light up the market place with bombs and send folks into heavily populated places and bring the fight to them. You take out a market place, drop leaflets claiming if they overthrow the current government, we will stop. If they don't, do it again and again. They will cease and assist.

And there may not have been any casualties at the Tea Party, but I think when the Brits came to fight like they did for ages, and then had folks fighting unconventionally and raiding the camps, this was terrorism in its finest.

The Atomic Bomb is a classic definition of terrorism. We made our point by inflicting great terror upon those people and they gave up.

Knowing Leland like i do, i am shocked to see that he has these anti-American feelings on this of all days.

First of all today should be a day to reflect on the tragedy that occurred two years ago today. It affected all of us who call America home. We were attacked by cowards using civilians and civilian planes to attack civilians. We did not cause this. There is no policy foreign or domestic that America has taken to warrant such an attack.

It is easy to sit in a cushy office and spew forth opinions of self rightousness and a live and let live mentality. It is easy because you are spoiled, all of you, including me. You have no indication, other than what you readily believe from a media simply existing to sell, what basic humanity boils down to.

If any of you think for one single breath that if you do not protect everything you have it will be taken from you, you need to check in to the mental ward.

It is that simple. People are not to be trusted by other people. We have built a great, wealthy and powerful nation based on freedoms. Other people want to take that from us. They want to steal it. It is that simple.

They want your big house Leland, they want your cushy job, they want your pool, they want your dogs. I so very much wish that was not REALITY, but it is. I wish that there were no countries, no religions. Just like John Lennon said in "Imagine" But the lyric is entitled that for a reason. It is not the truth. The truth is that people are flawed and you must be able to physically protect yourself at any time, or be a victim. It cannot happen that we all band together in this world. It is a fact. A sad fact, but a fact nontheless.

This thread was about the anniversary of the most horrific crime ever to happen to us, our country, our people, our way of life. The life you enjoy so very much.

And to belittle it by blaming a politician who has done nothing but try to protect you from further atrocites, instead of showing the reverence for this date that you should be showing disgusts me.

I for one have remembered what happened two years ago all day today. I remember that a few cowards tried to take my life from me. I remember those brave Americans who died, and the brave Americans who live on and refused to let the American spirit die.

I applaud those Americans, and today I especially remember who I am, not who I cannot be, simply because we are human.

Marshall

As Howard Stern said this morning, "Every Sept. 11 we should nuke a Middle Eastern country into oblivion"..... Teach them a lesson they won't soon forget I say.

There is no dealing with these religious nuts. We should strike hard and strike fast and put the fear of Allah into them. Bomb them to hell. KILL THEM. It is much too difficult to sort out the good from the bad. Too bad.

Make the "so-called" good Muslims, which according to them far out number the terrorists, rise up and defeat the radical Muslims. Hmmmm....NOT. Will never happen. Muslims don't turn in other Muslims, right?

I agree with MBFlyerfan, Marshall Law should be declared in Iraq. The military should do what it it trained to do - GO ON THE OFFENSIVE! None of this mamby-pamby bullshit of being a police force. That is not their job. They are trained killers; go kill.

Don't get me started on the Palestinians and Israeli's.......

Stone

Please clarify this comment. I assume that you are labeling the USA of terrorism because of its use of the Atomic Bomb on the citizens of Japan during WWII?

I recall from my high school history class many years ago that the decision to drop the Bomb was not an easy one for President Truman. Since December 7, 1941 when Japan FIRST attacked the US at Pearl Harbour, to the Battles of Midway, Guadalcanal, etc...and finally to Saipan, the USA realized that Japan was not going to surrender easily. Many US servicemen were killed in suicide attacks by "Kamakazis", demonstrating the determination and desperation of both military and civilian Japanese. Even as the US closed in on the Japanese mainland, Emperor Hirohito would not surrender. It was estimated that over 1,000,000 US soldiers would be killed in an invasion of Japan. The number of Japanese civilians who would fight to the death or simply commit suicide rather than surrender would be many times the US casualty figure. Given this information and the atomic bomb option available to President Truman, it was an obvious decision.

During that war, it was obvious who the enemy was. In today's war, the enemy hides in the shadows. Throw in religious fanatics, racial tension, political correctness, a divided America and combine it with hatred and intolerance and you have the makings of a very nasty situation.

A war has been declared on America, possibly many years before 9/11, by a shadowy enemy who hates its wealth, its freedoms and everything it stands for. Unless America fights that enemy using the new rules of war, the "American Empire" will lose its power and prestige like the British Empire did at the close of colonialism.

So do we just ignore the Geneva Convention?

That is, go after the terrorists, screw the innocent bystanders...destroy the country completely - not just the government and military, but also their infrastructure?

That would make Bush and his advisors war criminals (unless of course, we say screw Geneva).

Now what would we have? One country, Israel, on our side.

Forced isolationism. Yeah, that sounds good. :rolleyes:

Thanks for logging in and letting us know exactly what you are all about in your first post.

It is obvious that you have no connection with reality whatsoever.

What mosque do you attend up there in Vancouver?

Seeing that Muslims are the most recent inhabitants of the Holy Land (hundreds of years as you claim, compared to thousands of years for the Jews).... does that mean in a few years Europe and even North America will be claimed by Muslims? Should our women get fitted for burquas now?

You love using words like "hatred" and "intolerance". The only real hatred and intolerance in today's world lies in Islam, Islamic nations and Muslim terrorists.

But as part of the PC diversity crowd I am sure you think it is hateful and intolerant to even mention these things. Regardless of the fact that it is the hard truth.

The answer is a definite YES.

The Geneva Convention only applies to conflicts amongst the signatories and nation states with professional armies. It does not apply to fighting terrorists.

Besides, we are the only nation who ever adhered to any principles agreed upon in any of the Geneva Conventions. If the whole world uses these agreements like toilet paper, why shouldn't we? They are worthless and outdated.

I noticed all the hate America liberals and terrorist sympathizers tried to use the Geneva Convention argument relating to the terrorists held prisoner in Gitmo. Are you a member of that crowd Moby?

As I was putting up an American flag this morning a woman walking by stopped and thanked me for putting it up. She said "seems a lot of people have forgotten already". After some thought I tend to agree. Has it been brushed aside by many?
To my 343 brothers who gave all....you are not forgotten.

Of course I'm not. And I agree, that with the terrorists organizations, we have to get down and dirty.

We aren't the only ones who have adhered to Geneva. Some signatories that I imagine haven't violated it: US, UK, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Iceland, Germany, France, Denmark, Australia, Austria, Canada, etc. And I'd bet most haven't - Geneva only applies to war-related things - how many of the countries have been involved in wars since 1949?

Regardless. Some people say we should just go in and completely obliterate Iraq. Should we say fuck the moral high ground? I was speaking specifically of Iraq with regards to Geneva.

I remember reading a story once about an American company that had operations in Central America. They were having problems with people getting kidnapped and held for ransom. Finally they hired some mercinaries. The next time the kidnappers went to pick up a payment, there was no payment. Instead, they were given a list of them and their families, their schedules and what they did every day. The kidnapping stopped. Obviously this is a much smaller scale, but it's one step to getting all the terrorists - infiltrate, find them, and (unlike the company) either capture them or eliminate them.

As far as Gauntanamo, I haven't see any reason to bitch about how the prisoners there have been treated or whatever. There is only one thing in the Geneva Convention that I can see might be brought up - POW's must be allowed to notify next of kin. But, like you said - these aren't professional military members. (However, the fourth convention gives civilians the same rights as POW's - meaning technically, they should be able to notify next of kin).

Yeah it has been forgotten by many people. There is also a certain element of people who never gave a shit in the first place anyway.

The majority of Americans have not forgotten and never will. It is unfortunate that the minority of people who never cared are a very vocal bunch.

Plus the media is a huge problem. They try their best to get Americans to forget about it. It doesn't fit with their beliefs and the garbage they push out on a daily basis. How many times has a major media outlet shown the videos of the planes crashing into the buildings over the last two years? Did you even see it today?

It's been two years and has Hollywood even made a major motion picture about it with the 9/11 hijackers as characters in a film? No. That would mean the public would see the terrorists for who they are and where they came from. It would have to show their nature and character. They don't want to do that. It doesn't jibe with the bullshit they try to push on the public. Can't do that in a PC world. Many movies made since the mid 90's have CIA or other American government agents as the bad guy. Ever wonder about that?

Interesting though that they lined up within weeks to give some female soldier who didn't do shit (but get captured) a million dollars to tell a politically correct phoney story filled with lies to push their bullshit on the public.

That woman who stopped to thank you was right. You're a good man for flying the flag today. Fly it everyday. It was sad that even here in NY, I didn't see many people displaying the flag in front of their homes today. Two years ago every single home had one.

Should we fuck the moral high ground? I don't know. I wasn't aware there was a lot of morals left in this country. Especially amongst those that constantly criticize the war on terror. I guess morals only count when the treatment of those that would kill us in a heartbeat comes into question.

Regarding these guys who kidnap businessmen in South America.... You can't compare them to the Middle Eastern terrorist organizations. Is that what you are doing....equating groups of paramilitary thugs who kidnap for ransom to Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?

The guys in Gitmo are not POW's.

Personally, I think the scum we have in Gitmo should have been killed in the field. They should never have been brought to a U.S. base in North America... or anywhere else. Upon release they will just go back to terrorist business as usual.

You're not too much of an apologist for America's enemies are you?

That was my whole point - neither do I know.

Quote:

I wasn't aware there was a lot of morals left in this country. Especially amongst those that constantly criticize the war on terror. I guess morals only count when the treatment of those that would kill us in a heartbeat comes into question.

But if morals are lacking here, and Bush is going to bring them back...?

Quote:

Regarding these guys who kidnap businessmen in South America.... You can't compare them to the Middle Eastern terrorist organizations. Is that what you are doing....equating groups of paramilitary thugs who kidnap for ransom to Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?

No, I was just giving an example of how one entity fought back.

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The guys in Gitmo are not POW's.

So are they civilians?

Quote:

Personally, I think the scum we have in Gitmo should have been killed in the field. They should never have been brought to a U.S. base in North America... or anywhere else. Upon release they will just go back to terrorist business as usual.

This I don't disagree with. Either eliminate them, or let them rot with no chance of getting out. But don't they deserve a trial (no, I'm not suggesting a civilian court trial)?

Quote:

You're not too much of an apologist for America's enemies are you?

Not quite sure where you pulled that one from. Please explain.

Thanks for logging in and letting us know exactly what you are all about in your first post.

It is obvious that you have no connection with reality whatsoever.

What mosque do you attend up there in Vancouver?

Seeing that Muslims are the most recent inhabitants of the Holy Land (hundreds of years as you claim, compared to thousands of years for the Jews).... does that mean in a few years Europe and even North America will be claimed by Muslims? Should our women get fitted for burquas now?

You love using words like "hatred" and "intolerance". The only real hatred and intolerance in today's world lies in Islam, Islamic nations and Muslim terrorists.

But as part of the PC diversity crowd I am sure you think it is hateful and intolerant to even mention these things. Regardless of the fact that it is the hard truth.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Why is it obvious that I "have no connection to reality whatsoever"? And who says I attend a mosque? I don't understand why you appear to have taken it upon yourself to slot me into a category as a member of the PC diversity crowd who attends a mosque.

And yes, I did state that Jews have been in what is now Israel for thousands of years and that the Muslims did not move into Palestine until relatively recent times. I don't see your point. What does concern me is your suggestion that Europe and North America may someday be claimed by the Muslims. North America was founded on Christian morals and values, and is one of the reasons why so many of us here are sons and daughters of immigrants who have come and settled here, and more importanly, remained here. What scares me now is that those same Christian values are being eroded in the name of political correctness to the point where words like God, Bible, Christmas, etc are taken out of our schools, malls, cities, etc. So, to answer your question regarding our women wearing burquas?: No, they don't need to wear them now, but do keep them handy as our Charter of Rights and your Constitution may be rewritten to accommodate burquas in the near future.

Recently, I had the opportunity to look into Islam, purely for interest sake. It appears to be a religion that preaches forgiveness, love, tolerance and to spread the word of Allah to the ends of the earth and to defend the faith at all costs. Strangely enough, it has a lot in common with Christianity. Unfortunately, some forms of Islam has been perverted by some to satisfy their selfish needs, eg. the Taliban. Oh wait, Christianity has that problem too, eg. the Crusades, Catholic priest/pedophiles and other scandals.

I really don't know and certainly don't pretend to know that there is a solution to this global mess. Perhaps, it is in our nature as man to destroy one another. As early as the Old Testament, man has had conflicts and have killed one another beginning when Cain killed his brother Abel (sp?) in a fit of rage.

The world, its people and its conflicts are not conveniently in black and white. If it were, and that all Muslims were evil, it would be so easy to just kill them all. Unfortunately, there are people like Osama bin Laden and other leaders in organizations like Hamas, Al-Queda, PLO, Taliban, etc who have the ability to unite under Islam, a people who are generally uneducated, oppressed and living in poverty. They are united in the quest to destroy the State of Israel and anyone else who supports them. The USA, with its wealth, freedoms, prestige and support for Israel is a convenient target for such organizations. Perhaps, the USA is currently in a position to influence some positive change in the Middle East. It is a BIG job, one that I certainly wouldn't want.

We are not all right-wing wackos or deviant liberals here. It is not all black or white, right or wrong.

You're trying to be clever with your selective quoting. If the scum currently held at Gitmo were killed in the field there would be no discussion about morals. Most of them could have been killed by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. They would have been happy to do the deed. Bush was actually TOO MORAL for even allowing this whole Gitmo thing in the first place. Now every hate America lefty has rallied to their cause. Bush should have seen that coming a mile away. You know, the same lefty's that support evey other form of immorality infecting our society. In a strange sense of irony, these very lefty's and liberals are one of the reason these Islamic fundamentalist terrorists claim to hate America in the first place.

Poor choice of examples. Not even in the same category.

No. They are combatants who initiated armed conflict against the United States. That is why the government had to declare them "enemy combatants". They are a new class of enemy. If they were declared civilians or POW's the above mentioned lefty's would have found a legal loophole and a federal judge who would have released every one of them. I think even you know this to be true. The government knew this and acted accordingly. The Bush admin is aware of the leftist fifth column who is actually on the side of our enemies. (Again which makes me wonder why they even brought them to Gitmo in the first place)

Since we made the mistake of holding them, they deserve a military tribunal aboard an aircraft carrier then a swift execution. Of course no civilian court. The civilian courts have absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter regardless of how much your hate America friends try to claim.

In every debate on here you always try to look for some way to defend the worst elements of our world.... most especially enemies of America. You may think you are playing devil's advocate but it often does not come across as such. You rarely argue on the side of your own country in any debate. You go out of your way to portray your own country wrong on most issues...especially foreign policy debates and also our handling of terrorism. Such is the case with Islamic terrorists. They issue tapes or threats on an almost daily basis yet you see your own country as the primary problem. Maybe you have a problem with the fact that we are doing anything about it at all. You seem like one of these leftists that always view their own country as the problem regardless of the behavior or actions of any foreign elements. You definitely come across as an apoligist for the enemies of America. I guess you don't even realize it. You only change your tune when challegened. I only know what you post. But I do know you are anything but a moderate on most important issues and terrorism is the most important issue of our times.

I guess you didn't take the time to read your original post. I will quote it below for you if you have forgotten. You blamed 9/11 on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. You know .... those Jews who are backed by the U.S. The same Jews who receive the same amount of money we give Egypt. A conviently forgotten fact in the blame the evil Jew argument. What do we get for our support for Egypt? Anti-Americanism and support for terrorism. Another conviently forgotton fact.

Your whole tirade was the same classic bullshit perpetrated by the PC diversity crowd. Hate the Jew.. support the Palestinian terrorist. The anti-semitism was rather obvious. My first impression upon reading the post was that you were a Palestinian living in Canada. My second thought was you might have been a leftist professor at Concordia University or some other Canadian indoctrination center. Your post was right out of their philosophy.

My current thought is that you are a bullshit artist who is just posting what he thinks others want to hear.

Oh yeah... another thing... don't be one of these idiots that brings up the Crusades in every debate regarding Islam. That is another bullshit tenet of the PC diversity crowd. That was 500 years ago. It has no bearing on the problems of the modern world in 2003. It just shows more of your impressionable train of thought. Islam did quite a bit of bloody and savage crusading in it's day. Still does. Another conviently forgotton fact.

When have I ever tried defending Saddam? Questioning our government's policy is not defending Saddam.

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You rarely argue on the side of your own country in any debate. You go out of your way to portray your own country wrong on most issues...especially foreign policy debates and also our handling of terrorism.

I portray Bush's actions as questionable. Did not you question Clinton's decisions? So therefore, neither one of us believes that whatever the President does represents the "country."

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Such is the case with Islamic terrorists. They issue tapes or threats on an almost daily basis yet you see your own country as the primary problem. Maybe you have a problem with the fact that we are doing anything about it at all. You seem like one of these leftists that always view their own country as the problem regardless of the behavior or actions of any foreign elements. You definitely come across as an apoligist for the enemies of America. I guess you don't even realize it. You only change your tune when challegened. I only know what you post. But I do know you are anything but a moderate on most important issues and terrorism is the most important issue of our times.

I'm sorry...you must have me mistaken for someone else. I have never defended or justified anything that terrorists have done. I have never said, "we are wrong, we shouldn't do this..." I usually post something questioning what we ARE doing. "Is it the right thing?" If you think I have posted something that says we are wrong or terrorists are justified in ANY way, please post what I said.

I wonder what the naysayers here would say if some terrorist faction out there got a WMD and used it on a civilian target? Wonder how many 180's we would see if the unthinkable happened. If you think these groups aren't looking for them, or trying to develop them, you are kidding yourself. It's not about if anymore, but when. If it were to happen on GWB's watch, all the left will be ripping him for not doing more than he already has.

Saddam is a dangerous man, and he's not all together upstairs. Now he has less of an influence on the people of Iraq. So now it's up to them to move their country forward.

We've seen now what they are capable of doing. I'm not defending every American action, but sometimes we have to fight against what is purely evil in this world. America isn't perfect, but I've been all over the world and I think we have it pretty good here.

Face it naysayers, there is a fatwa against anyone who isn't muslim. This has been the rally cry for many of the factions there are now. The extreme militant fundamental muslims will spill the blood of you and your families and cheer about it. Those terrorists have no place in the world so they want to destroy it. If the conflict in Isreal were to end, the fight between Sheia, and Summi would flare up. They can't get along with themselves. It's going to be a tall order to try to bring peace to people who are content with hate and destruction.

Its time to get ugly. It time to let Israel declare formal open war against Hamas and all other terrorist organizations. I will go one further. Here is an idea:

Many terrorists blow themselves up for the glory of becoming a martyr, they know that Hamas (and Saddam before he was driven away) will pay their family a nice chunk of change because of what thier son or daughter did in the name of allah.

So I say this, Israel should let it known that they have a new policy they are implementing. If you blow yourself up commiting a terrorist act, you will get a missile in the front door of your families' home. There will be no one there to get the check for your act of violence. You kill innocent civilians, your family gets it. Simple, barbaric, and I would imagine quite effective.

I will say again I am quite happy we are in Iraq. Its better to fight the terrorists there than on the streets of Orlando, or Philly, or New York. Quick, lets name the terror supporting nations off the top of our heads. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. Well, it seems to me that a strong military presence right smack dab in the middle of all of them does not seem like a particularly bad thing to me. Especially now that we are pulling out of Saudi Arabia. If you dont think the fact we have 100,000 plus troops just over the border of all these countries doesnt give them pause, you are crazy.

This is World War III. A new kind of war where the enemy is not a conventional army, where the enemy hides in shadows and the only way you know they were there is if something is exploding or burning. In this type of a war, we cannot afford to wait and react, because then it would be too late. We need to be offensive, we need to be aggressive, otherwise it will not work.