Jeff - the references to the myriad of myth re-posts are not reviews, merely a re-hash of the myths themselves...mostly threads like this one, that you're reading in fact.

Here's a quick google for reviews:

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page_13.html

http://www.bc4x4.com/pv/yj/revolvers/

http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=259355

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page14.html

http://behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page16.html

http://www.4x4review.com/products/suspension/revolver-movie.mpg

http://www.4x4review.com/products/suspension/revolver.asp

Yeah - ALL suspensions eventually reach their limit of extension, and hang the tire.

So - the question is - How much wheel travel is too much?

Some people want a stiff suspension and 4 lockers, and just count on the one tire's traction to be enough to propel them, and the center of gravity to be low enough to prevent rolls, yet high enough to have adequate ground clearance, etc.

A front coil sprung live axle for example is normaly considered better than a T-Bar sprung IFS.

The T-Bar sprung IFS provides down force throughout its range of droop motion.

The Coiled Live Axle provides initial downforce, and then relies upon gravity for the remainder of the droop range.

Having mostly jeep experience...I'm going to go out on a limb here, and express my impression that a coiled live axle is better than a T-Bar'd IFS for traction and stability.

That is DESPITE the coiled live axle NOT providing spring down force for the last part of its its droop range.

According to Jeff and Porshe, the IFS is going to have traction, and the Coiled Live Axle is for Ramp Fags, as it has no real traction once the coil reaches its full length, and the axle is merely drooping due to gravity.

They claim a "drooped by gravity" live axle has "Zero Traction" once the coil or leaf pack is no longer pushing it down.

(I think the faint amount of spring push at the limits of down travel are not that meaningful anyway, even before the spring loses all force...so the last end of the travel range is not significant anyway on the way down either. (Or the T-Bar would be a hot ticket....etc)...so that its spring force is more academic than important at the bottom of down travel.)

I think the small amount of down force left in a leaf spring at the bottom of its down travel is soon negated by the up forces imposed when the leaf spring has to bend more, PULLED DOWN BY the tire, etc...INSTEAD OF the leaf pushing down the tire.

I think Shackle swing is a good thing that adds wheel travel...they seem to feel that a shackle should be a solid bar welded to the leaf end - as swing means the leaf pack is "disconnected" and therefore has "Zero Traction".

So - We disagree as to the value of a "drooped by gravity" live axle....I like'm, they hate'm.

It seems to me that the point has been proven in the video. The open-diff 2wd Xterra was pushed up the ramp untill the tire was about to lift... At that point it spun. Then when he put it in 4wd(not shown in the video) and went another couple of inches up the ramp the tire was OFF the ground... Only THEN(when it came to the LAST couple of inches) did the drooped tire stop providing enough traction to drive the X up the ramp farther.

Also note that the revolver started to open as soon as he started up the ramp. The other side was never unfolded. If it looks like that in the video it's an illusion.

Bottom line is that too many guys have posted real world experiance with the revolvers that like them. And even a video that PROVES their point.
Others are posting regurgitated info.(with no personal experiance)

If what the naysayers is correct then in that video the tire SHOULD have started to spin as soon as the shackle started to unfold. That didn't happen. End of story.

Maybe it would be clearer if mmniac did the same thing. Only this time with tape or spray paint to mark the spot where the tire spun. Then secrure the shackle so it can not unfold, do the drive up the ramp again, then mark the spot were the tire spins.
I think you'd see a remarkable difference in how far up the ramp the X will go.

This is the exact position of the Xterra at the end of the video on page 3 of this thread. This is the point of wheel spin.


Here is a picture of the revolver in the fully closed position. Notice that the pivot shaft is fully seated in the white saddle. It is physically impossible for it to close more than this and this is why the passenger side shackle may "apear" to be partially open in the video.


Here is the revolver fully opened - this is the exact point of wheel spin and immediately prior to the tire lifting off the pavement.


I appologize for the quality of the pictures and the video. It was all taken with my phone. I hope this helps someone.

If I did not believe the shackles work for me providing both traction and flex they would be gone, no if ands ors or buts. I have nothing to gain or lose if anyone else decides to run or not to run Revolvers.

Whatever, man.

We have explained the drawback of revolvers as well as the fact that they do not provide "useful" flex. You have not adequately replied despite the length of your posts. Come out to a real hardcore trail and count how many pairs of revolver shackles you see.

Facts:

revolver shackles...

...increase chances of rollovers
...ruin leaf springs
...destroy spring hangers

I'm done with this subject because TJ has a neverending stream of bvllshit and propaganda to endorse what's on his rig. Hopefully nobody rolls or damages their rig because they listened to him.

Way to rehash the same BS Jeff, just ignore the evidence, and keep repeating the same incorrect info.



You should take an example from Porshe - he discusses the issues, and if we disagree, that's fine, I still respect his maturity.

PS - I assume you will now remove your SAS, as according to your premise, its a Ramp Fag mod.

NO IT CANT BE OVER.............. I STILL HAVE PEANUTS AND BEER LEFT!!!!!!

Alright, I really hate to jump into this but I need something clarified for myself.

More acrticulation generally means more droop, more traction, more stability on the trail, right? (To a point, of course, as there are always exremes we are not going to talk about).

RTI ramp scores are ultimately dependant on articulation and traction of the rig, true?

So, if a rig gets high RTI scores it means that it can artululate well, keep tires on the ground with traction and be stable. Given that, my logic is that the rig should be stable in most offroad cituations, no more or less than any other rig with a similar COG and suspension setup. No?

Granted no offroad cituation is the same, there are always variations and there are always risks so it's hard to precicely test the revolvers.

Am I off with my logic, maybe?

Only a little off - The RTI is more about being able to keep the tires on the ground...there really is no traction aspect per se, other than what ever tires are involved DO require enough traction to push/pull the truck up the ramp.

Its about uptravel too for example...if the upside can't stuff enough, it actually prevents further ramp travel as it jams, etc...which can even hinder the free/drooped tire from providing enough traction, etc.



So - the concept is essentially correct, in that tires on the ground at least have the opportunity to provide traction and stability...and a dangling/hung tire is is generally unable to prove traction or stability.

That is WHY the RTI became a popular way of measuring a rig's articulation, as it was a good predictor of trail performance in that regard.

Its not perfect of course, but on rocks at least, its got a pretty good record of good trail articulation rigs doing well on RTI scores, etc.

As for testing - the concept was presented as theorizing that traction drops to zero as soon as the revolver STARTS to unfold...as that was the theoretical loss of weight on the tire.

As SHOWN, the theory was incorrect, as the tire DID NOT lose traction when the Revolver STARTED to unfold, nor did it lose traction further down when almost completely unfolded...

...it MAINTAINED traction until it reached the end of its reach...just like a regular shackled suspension would.



So - it was PROVEN in the video that the Revolvers do not do what the incorrect myths claimed they would...they in fact did what the people who HAVE them say they do.

Hey Kev, pass the beer!

Yep. The revolvers did exactly as they are designed to do.

They allowed someone to go up a ramp on asphalt pavement, without losing traction....

Come to think of it, I've never seen a vehicle lose traction on asphalt pavement, when they weren't going faster than a very slow crawl. Hmmm... Coincidence? Or is it that asphalt pavement has a friction coefficient around 0.8... whereas dirt has a friction coeff. of around 0.3... Hmm.......

Not to be a dick or anything, but the video only proves what I've been saying... Want a high RTI score, get revolvers.

It has yet to prove anything about how they'll handle offroad.



(there. break back out the popcorn and beer you freeloading bystanders...)

PS - I do understand how the myths got started...just like any mod, people do lifts, get axle wrap or driveline vibes, death wobble or what ever...typically not because a lift causes that per se, but because their shocks were not properly valved, or their pinion angles were too severe to handle it, etc....essentially they did not do all the things needed to compensate for the lift.

They then claim the lift caused the death wobble or the axle wrap, and angrily take it back off....instead of fixing the underlying deficiency such as the shocks, etc.

So - that's how these things get started...its human nature.

The important thing is to keep an open mind, as Porshe did.

He considered the situation, came up with a reasonable experiment to prove/disprove his hypothesis...he was open minded about it.

When it becomes about being right or wrong, and not about establishing the facts/finding the truth...nothing is accomplished.

Its the difference between a discussion, and a pissing match.

Porche did not lose a pissing match, he was discussing the situation....as he suggested the experiment, and it was his video solution that proved the facts.

Porshe solved the question with the video concept...and thankfully, allowed the "No Weight on the Drooped Tire" Revolver Myth to Die.



(Can't find a "Hats off to You" emoticon)

Ahhhh the saga continues.

Wasn't "my" video that "solved" it. Somebody else posted the video.

And for the love of god, quite spelling PORSCHE wrong you bastage.

Porshy -

Well, you came up with the idea.

MMNIAC delivered the requested experiment though.

The slippage did not occur until the tire was essentially hung, not as soon as the revolver started to unfold...

....as you explained, the proof of concept was if the slippage occured as soon as it STARTED to unfold...as from that point onwards, there would have been no difference in traction, if the myth had been true.

As the slippage only occured as the tire lost ground contact...and NOT upon initial unfolding....in fact, pretty much about when all suspensions let a tire spin...it proved that the concept of loss of weight/traction upon initial unfolding was false.



OK - One myth BUSTED.

Now, about the rest of them....

Stress on the leaves and hangers.

This should be easier at least for most people.

The claim is that the extra rotation the leaf pack can move through stresses the leaves and hangers.

OK - if I take a regular suspension leaf pack, and twist it in the middle, it transmits this force to the front and rear..the front leaf hanger, and the rear shackle, and through the rear shackle, to the rear shackle hanger...as these points are more or less fixed, the leaf is bent/twisted, and has tension on it...as it is the only mobile part.

This is the normal way its done...and we've all done it...fine so far.

Now, lets make the rear shackle able to give/rotate with the leaf.

I twist the leaf, and the front hanger has forces transmitted to it...and the rear revolver shackle has forces transmitted to it....so far, the same as for a regular shackled suspension.

Ok, I twist the rear revolver with the leaf, and it just rotates with it...so the leaf is not bending, and the tension is relieved...and no twist is transmitted to the hanger at all, as the rotation eliminated the tension.

So - the leaf is under LESS tension, and the rear hanger is under LESS tension....that's great...no damage likely there.

What about the front hanger? Its the same fixed design as the regular suspension...can't it be damaged?

Well - its as vulnerable as it was before the Revolver went on the other end...and, as the leaf itself is not being twisted as hard, it has LESS stress on it as well.

What if the Revolver allows the leaf to twist FURTHER than it would with a regular shackle?

OK - this is quite likely. The parallel situation is if a flexy spring pack were installed instead of a stiffer pack with Revolvers...as a flexy spring pack and lift shackles has about the same travel as a stiffer pack with Revolvers.

So - the answer is that the front would get twisted as FAR as it would with a flexy pack and no revolver, but not as hard, as the tension is relieved by the Revolver at the other end.

One situation is turning a screw driver to drive in a screw with your hand, turning the screwdriver a half turn...

...The other is like putting the handle of the screwdriver into a rubber hose, and turning the hose a half turn...

Its still 180 degrees, but the forces are transmitted into the hose, which is easier to twist...relieving the tension....

...and, with the hose being turned, the force on the screw to twist it into the wood or whatever, is greatly reduced...

As the screw into the wood is the equivalent of the force on the front hanger...you can see its more gentle.

Because I have not heard reports of undue front hanger breakage on rigs with flexy leaf packs, or on front hangers on rigs with rear Orbit Eye mounts...a similar flex inducer, it seems that the small additional degree of rotation involved would not be of special concern.

Of course, I HAVE seen and heard of front hanger LEAF breakage on several X's...including a few that did not know the leaf had broken inside the hanger...as the ends were still captive, etc...

So, that happened on OEM suspensions, and on PML, and 3" SL's, so far...in a few cases.

IF it WERE to occur on a Revolver equipped rig (It has not happened yet though as far as I know....), it would not be a Revolver specific issue, perhaps the previously discussed Nisan leaf metal issue, etc.

I have also heard of rear shackle mounts breaking, and rear shackles breaking, on non-Revolver equipped rigs...so, while it DOES happen, it is not a Revolver specific problem either.

I did hear about one (1) guy who needed to repair a Revolver Shackle, I believe he upgraded the block the shackle folds onto from what it came with. The new ones seem fine in that regard.

So - there is no sound basis for the Revolver to damage the leaves, or the hangers, or atleast, no more than any other flexy suspension, and probably a lot LESS likely than a conventional suspension.

Porsche - do you concur?

Here for your viewing pleasure is the same Xterra, on the same loading dock, again in 4x2 and unlocked, but this time with a solid shackle of the exact same length as the closed revolver.

Solid shackle - same ramp

Revolver - same video as page 3

The Revolver let me go an extra 26 inches forward on the loading ramp. This is a gain of 4 inches in vertical travel before the wheel spins. This is real world but under controlled conditions.

Since this is a side by side comparison with all conditions being equal with the exception of the shackle I think it is hard to refute the results.

Both tests were done in 2 wheel drive so you can compare for yourself how the revolver does provide some degree of usefull traction enhancing droop.

End of Thread now?

Nope.....

I heard that buying revolvers has a negative impact on your karma with the Jeep owners around you but a positive impact on the Yota owners around you.

Discus..... :p

Absolutely not correct. I have videos to prove that this is not the case. I can prove that having revolvers on makes you balls droop lower thus providing more shock value when you're trying to get laid with a one-night-stand. With 4 more inches of additional droop at the left nut the right one articulates just enough to achieve the proper angle of tuckage to get out the way and prevent ball tap when you walk.

Holy crap, Tony, why didn't you tell me sooner?!?!?!?!?

Have you conducted extensive testing to prove this theory or are you just perpetuating more myths?
I really DONT want to see the videos that test this theory.

http://www.behold-the-rage.com/jeep_page25.html

{quote]He has since done a SOA (Spring Over Axle) conversion so no linger is using the RS[/quote]

Awe... He finally got a real leaf pack setup, and ditched the revolvers. Good for him...

I knew you'd like it.

Figure there's a point where doing BOTH long travel mods is getting crazy...the drivetrain work to make a jeep able to get its tires at 180 to the frame are too much to bother with for him for sure...so as he did the SOA for lift...ALSO doing Revolvers would have meant way too many other mods to make it all work, etc.

Anyway - I'm glad the myths are busted at least...thanks for the help.

No mod is perfect for everyone...For me, I need a stiff leaf pack because I carry a shit load of equipment into the boonies for work, etc....and I'd rather have the lower COG than a taller lift...but I also need the articulation to get over crap...so I use the skids to drag over, and the revolver articulation to maintain traction.

The Revolvers let me sit lower than normal, helping to keep the COG down, for the amount of articulation they provide - about like a flexy leafed 3" or a conventional 5" SL, etc....but with enough leaf support to work...a good compromise for me.

If I had tried to get leaves that flexed that much, but could hold up that much weight, I'd have been looking at a very custom pack.



And, since the Revolvers work as they are supposed to, with none of the mythical drawbacks...I'm happy.

Sad, bro.

The physics don't lie. People who have jobs (God forbid! ) don't have time to reply to all 20000 words of your bullsh1t.

The revolvers function as designed. They provide some extra flex and a very small amount grip. They also have all the other drawbacks listed.

I would love to see TJ go on Pirate and tell those dudes how much he loves his revolvers. Or he could come to a real hardcore trail and see how many people run them.

Like I said before, I don't have time to reply to this crap. I will continue to repost the truth:

People with hardcore offroad rig don't run revolvers for a reason. Cut the crap, TJ.

We're still on it?