Jeff, you are back, but with nothing new to say...just the same snippets from people who are the same ones perpetuating the myths...not reviews from people who actually knew about them.

You saw the video, it proves the myths are busted.

You even said you were done...and THIS is your come back, the same post, again?

Look, the physics are what proved the revolvers work...quotes from other guys like you are all you have to argue with the facts.

Once the physics are properly applied, it all works...as it does with the proper application of logic.

So - Revolvers work.

Are they for every one? Of course not, and neither is a SAS.

Do I say doing a SAS is a RTI Fag Mod because it improves the RTI score? Like that's a bad thing?

I didn't ask for a video, Porsche did...I didn't shoot the video, MMNIAC did...

All I did was say that the Myths are false, explain why, and then the visual proof arrived conveniently.

If you don't like it...that's a shame.

Just because a lot of people have blindly repeated the myths for years doeesn't make the Myth true...just a very commonly held, incorrect, belief.

This isn't religeon...this is just people stating what they feel to be the truth.

Some people base their truth on properly interpreted experience and properly applied logic, and others don't, abeit, I'm sure they meant to.

That's why some otherwise intelligent people think the plane can't take off from the tread mill...

...They are SURE they are right, they have arguments that invoke logic, etc...they don't get why you won't see it their way, etc.

If they all talk to each other, they reinforce the belief...If someone disagree's, they get angry that a belief is being challenged...afterall, that's "Already been settled..."

So, I'm not saying everyone has to DO anything...all I wanted was for people to take a fresh look at the issue, and at least have correct info about it.

What to DO with the info is up to THEM.

I don't know why you continue to flail about on this...its been put to bed already by the video evidence, etc.

You are diluting the knowledge base by blindly repeating the myths...it hurts society as a whole when that happens...like that Premium Gas has more power...

....hell that one has never died either...but I can find a ton of people who spout how they are SURE its true, because their pappy told them, and his pappy told him, and ALL his freinds agreed, and Bobby's Camaro beat that Mustang, and so forth...its still a Myth.

The people who HAVE revolvers already knew they worked, and didn't do the bad things "Reported"...but, EVERYONE ELSE said they must be lying....as otherwise, the MYTH was being challenged...

...some Myths die hard, and it would be nice if you just accepted the evidence without feeling like you have to keep spouting the dead myths as sacred beliefs that must be preserved.

Its a shackle...not a religeon.

---------------------------------------------

READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF THE REVOLVER STORY:

If you are doing a longer flexy leaf pack to get lift and articulation, why pay that much for a shackle...a regular lift shackle is fine....you already have a reasonable amount of wheel travel to work with.

If you want to stay low, but have taller lift type wheel travel, the Revolvers give travel without too much lift.

If you are doing a stiff leaf pack...to carry more weight/be more stable, etc...but need the articulation the flexy pack would have provided, the Revolvers work great as a solution.



Pretty much...that's the story.

You're hilarious.

You are comparing an SAS to Revolvers?

As has been stated before, the RTI ramp is neat but does not take into account the coefficients of friction. Had you taken High School Physics 1 you would know that.

The gauntlet has been thrown.

You have been called out.

Go brag on Pirate about your revolver shackles and link us to the replies.

---
Repost:

The physics don't lie. People who have jobs (God forbid! ) don't have time to reply to all 20000 words of your bullsh1t.

The revolvers function as designed. They provide some extra flex and a very small amount grip. They also have all the other drawbacks listed.

I would love to see TJ go on Pirate and tell those dudes how much he loves his revolvers. Or he could come to a real hardcore trail and see how many people run them.

Like I said before, I don't have time to reply to this crap. I will continue to repost the truth:

People with hardcore offroad rig don't run revolvers for a reason. Cut the crap, TJ.

Jeff - you keep re-posting the same posts by people who don't know the truth about revolvers (AS IF THESE people "represent" the parties you awarded them representative status, or know anything about revolvers)

...and the same uninformed joke/filler article...the same one that said steel bumpers were ALSO lame, etc....

From the SAME JP Article you refer to about "Whacky Shackles":

"With all the manufacturing technology available today, we can't understand why anyone would want to replace a good-looking factory bumper with square stock-especially on late-model Jeeps. Buildings, trailers, and farm-animal feeders should be made from square and large-diameter round tube, not Jeep parts."

No cred there for you at all....you're quoting a snippet from an article that was far from serious.



Address the issues...the FACTS were shown, the video proved the Myth was a Myth.

Repeating that the people who don't know how the shackles work STILL don't know, even if there are a lot of them (HENCE the Myth Status...) means nothing relative to the truth.

:rolleyes:

Again -

The people who HAVE revolvers already knew they worked, and didn't do the bad things "Reported"...but, EVERYONE ELSE said they must be lying....as otherwise, the MYTH was being challenged...

...some Myths die hard, and it would be nice if you just accepted the evidence without feeling like you have to keep spouting the dead myths as sacred beliefs that must be preserved.

Its a shackle...not a religeon.

---------------------------------------------

READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF THE REVOLVER STORY:

If you are doing a longer flexy leaf pack to get lift and articulation, why pay that much for a shackle...a regular lift shackle is fine....you already have a reasonable amount of wheel travel to work with.

If you want to stay low, but have taller lift type wheel travel, the Revolvers give travel without too much lift.

If you are doing a stiff leaf pack...to carry more weight/be more stable, etc...but need the articulation the flexy pack would have provided, the Revolvers work great as a solution.



Pretty much...that's the story.

Cool, can ya both just let it die? Jeff, since TJ is so far from what you would consider hard core trails...stop telling him he's gotta come out here to see how many hard core wheelers are running revolvers, it's not going to happen for a long time. Jeff, have you even run your SAS on a trail yet (not being a dick here, this is just the only thread you seem to notice and will reply to). Oh, and stop posting quotes of yourself...makes you seem stupid, and like you have no valid arguments.

TJ, Jeff obviously isn't going to change his mind so stop arguing with him. The fact that neither of you seem to understand what the other is arguing about, makes me laugh. Aside from the bogus crap about rollovers, unloading, etc...Jeff keeps harping about traction when the revolvers unfold...not flex. He makes a good point. Regardless, you two really don't like each other and it's kinda funny, but at the same time it's sad, as neither one of you has had anything new to say in at least a page of posts, but maybe that's just me.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

I know what you mean...its covered, the video proved that unloading doesn't happen, and that the flex gives useful traction, and that the tire is NOT unweighted with zero traction as the Myth would have you believe.

I think Jeff is the only one flailing against the truth, and yes, I don't see him ever seeing how Revolvers work.

He didn't even understand the SAS reference...in that with his SAS, according to the physics propounded by the Myth...once his live axle drooped past the support of his coil spring, he'd have zero traction...exactly like a revolver.

Of course, that's not true, and his SAS improves his traction and stability, that's why live axles are better in the rocks.

So, the principle the Myth argument hinges on falls apart under close scrutiny.

He will never see that though....you're right.

He IS good at baiting me into continuing the discussion though, so he gets points for that.

Thanks for the entertainment guys.

k_enn

Nah. TJ's pages and pages of bullsh1t does not require any additional response. Since he continues to perpetuate this thread I will occasionally repost the same sh1t in case somebody actually believes him.

....

Facts:

revolver shackles...

...increase chances of rollovers
...ruin leaf springs
...destroy spring hangers

Not worth buyin'.

Proof? Anywhere? TJ at least got photographic/video evidence of what he was saying to be true. I've read your links Jeff, and near as I can tell it's all crap.

Jeff, how about Johnny joint style shackle hangers?

Good god... Y'all still can't get off this video "proof" can you...

All the video "proved" was a tire on asphalt has a helluva' lot of traction.

Traction on asphalt is 3 times greater than on dirt. So the tire on dirt will slip long before the tire on asphalt, if all other conditions are the same.

The video shows nothing more than what I said at the very beginning...if you want to look good on an RTI ramp, get revolvers...

Sorry, guys. That video doesn't "prove" anything in the debate. It was a nice try, but it didn't address any offroading conditions, unless your definition of offroading is "mall-crawling over curbs".

Thanks for playing. Please try again.

Ah Crap... Im fucked!!

Sorry Porsche, I thought you got it.

Your premise was that the tire would slip AS SOON AS the revolver opened...as your explaination was that THAT was when the tire became unweighted...

As a control...a regular lift shackle, on the same wheel, slipped sooner.

If this were merely demonstating that asphalt gives good traction....why did the revolver version go further before slipping?

---------------------------------------------

The coefficient of traction for both shackle versions was the same....and the Revolver went further, without slipping, than the regular shackle.

----------------------------------------------

These are facts, not BS.

-----------------------------------------------

Interpretation of these facts does NOT INDICATE A LOSS OF TRACTION on the Revolver side when the shackle OPENED AS THE MYTH CLAIMED IT WOULD.

-----------------------------------------------

Interpretation of these facts does NOT INDICATE that the regular shackle gave more traction.

-----------------------------------------------

The traction surface was the same for both...the only variable was the shackle.......the Revolver went further w/o slipping.

-----------------------------------------------

TRY logic, instead of empty myths.

If you go back to the beginning, I was comparing flex/grip with a revolver vs. a real leaf pack that gives equivalent suspension travel. Nobody in their right mind would try to compare travel you get with a regular shackle vs. a revolver... Duh, of course the revolver has more travel...that's sort of their purpose in life, isn't it?

What has to be compared in order to see the difference in ACTUAL traction, is:

1) A rig with regular leaf packs and revolver shackles.

2) A rig with different leaf pack and standard shackles.

And the available travel from #1 and #2 have to be equivalent.

Maybe you can't see what I'm talking about, but so far, there hasn't been any "testing" comparing my recommendation for a real leaf pack instead of revolvers. We (myself included) took the eye off the ball, so to speak, and got hung up with friction coefficients. My bad. But the fact remains, the "test" wasn't testing my argument in the first place.

Thanks for talking about it....at least SOME people are mature about it.



......But, yes it did..as the leaves were the same, the tires were the same, the ground was the same...the ONLY variable was the shackles.

I have stated repeatedly, that if you are doing a flexy pack, there's no point in revolvers - as the articulation should be there in spades that way too...

The revolvers niche is where you need a stiffer pack for load handling, etc..but want the travel...or don't want too much lift, just articulation, etc.

YOU have stated repeatedly that the drooped tire would SLIP as SOON AS THE REVOLVER OPENED...as, you stated that ONCE OPENED, there would be no down force on the tire.

The ENTIRE PREMISE of your argument was that the tire would slip WHEN the Revolver opened...it didn't...

....and it didn't half way down, or 3/4 of the way down...it did it when it ran out of droop...EXACTLY as I claimed it would.



So - with the Revolver being the only variable...and it acting as I said it would, and NOT acting as YOU said it would....I think its conclusive that you were wrong about how it would work.

I even told you WHY you were wrong...point by point.

Then, SHOWED you a demonstration..illustrating the point, using your OWN example.

So, all things being equal...the Revolver is not a wasted mod...it works.
______________________________________________________________

Is it a panacea, and with it bullets bounce off, and I no longer need lockers armor or lower T-case gears, and Tree Huggers burn Spires of Spotted Owls in reverence to it?

No...of course not, and the burnt feathers smell badly as well.



Its merely another kind of shackle...one that allows more droop than a regular shackle...and, the droop lets the tire push the truck, as the tire remains on the ground.

Will a flexier pack do that too? - Sure...and if I could get one flexy enough, yet stiff enough, I'd sure consider it too.

That's it.

________________________________________________________

Ding Dong - The Myth is Dead!

BECAUSE IT WAS ON PAVEMENT!!!

That is the reason friction coeff. got introduced into the arguement in the first place...

I don't care if a revolver can keep grip on an RTI ramp (or ramp) on solid pavement... That proves the first part of my arguement that the ONLY thing they're good for is for show...

Show me a video of a revolver on DIRT or ROCK that actually allows for slippage easily, and if THAT video proves me wrong, then so be it. As of right now, all the "video evidence" shows is revolvers will give you a higher RTI score verses a regular shackle, which is EXACTLY what I've already conceded... The video says absolutely nothing (much like an RTI ramp score) of how it will perform offroad.

Yes. It works rather well on asphalt. With that logic, I should run high performance street tires, so I can get better traction on pavement, too... Maybe get some spiffy spinna's (though I don't know how that'll help me).

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the video doesn't "prove" what you're saying it "proves" (over and over and over and...). There's a lot of things that allow traction on pavement that don't do a darn thing offroad. The benefits on one surface do not necessarily translate to another surface.

this is going along the same lines as a politics thread almost. Where are shraham and nymadman when you need them?

Holy crap.

I can't believe you have the patience to deal with this crap!

Way to keep your head and common sense, FWIW...

...

Ty:

You are 100% right about the Johnny joints. They do help alleviate the problem I mentioned.

As far as my links go, they are far from the best information I have read, but I am not aware of better info posted on the web. They certainly are better than this beholdtherage.com crap, though......

Porsche has stated all of the reasons why revolvers don't really work. They give more flex, but do not give useful flex offroad. Hardcore rigs don't run them for a reason. They are "redneck bling" at best. I don't need to convince you or TJ of the facts. They are almost self-evident. I am only still replying in the event that some newbie is naive enough to be fooled by TJ's usual bologna.

Thanks for being consistantly useless Jeff.

Look, address the info, drop the useless parroting.

Porsche was proven wrong on each point, because he (AND YOU) KEEP forgetting about opposite side stuffage leverage, and ALL the other factors that made the tire droop, and grip...

Unless you have something new...stop pretending you're trying to be useful and protecting newbies...you are doing them a Dis-Service, not a service, when you perpetrate myths.

Your pattern of sources: You pretend some random guy is somehow an authority, and pretend a journalist or an actual REVIEW is BS, etc...



Its a myth...you quote other people who believed it, and ignore the people WHO HAVE IT.



Go work out the physics - to show me why my bumble bee can't fly, and get back to me when you figure out it CAN fly.

Dunno if either has ever posted outside the Clubhouse

Jeff, your face reminds me of redneck bling. Seriously though, I have been trying to keep an open mind on both arguements. But you know what, I'm already running them and only time will tell if they roll me or F'up my spring hangers. As for traction, I guess I won't know since I am running alcan spring packs and a detroit in the rear. Even if it doesn't add traction, it is keeping me stable and they were the only alternative at the moment to match the flex up front.

You are too funny.

Your 100 pages of bullcrap hasn't proven a thing. The physics are simple and if you are having trouble understanding them, I would recommend going back to high school and taking a course in it.

Everything I have posted has been true. As far as I can tell, porsche has tried to post sensible information as well. He has addressed all of the reasons why revolvers help on the RTI ramp, but don't help off-road. He has explained how they can cause the shock to unload, resulting in a rollover or body damage. It should be obvious to everybody why revolvers can ruin the stock spring hangers and why they are more prone to failure than traditional shackles.

You have replied to these sensibilities with illogical conclusions, propaganda and insults. You have written pages of garbage instead of taking one good, hard look at the physical realities of the revolver shackle mechanism. I sincerely believe that you think you have somehow proven something, but the simple truth is that you can't even understand why you are incorrect.

Porsche and I have both conceded that the revolvers will give more flex and a tiny bit of additional grip. We just believe that the cons outweigh the pros on this one. What's not sensible about that?

At the time I researched revolvers, I asked around. The following businesses recommended against them:

Predator 4x4
Armorology
Tanner 4x4
4wheelparts

Why is it that these guys recommended that I not spend the money? Because they all wheel and have seen mishaps as a result of the revolvers.

You are not addressing the facts, merely restating that you restated them, blah blah blah.

The physics are on my side...

The very fact that you guys went from ZERO TRACTION, based upon YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PHYSICS...to conceeding "A tiny bit" of extra traction...

...MEANS that you didn't understand the physics.

So - yes, its high school physics, you you have misapplied it, and come to the wrong conclusion.

The bee flies...you admit it, but now say it only flies a "tiny bit".

Well, that's SOME progress.

TJ:

I have not conceded anything. They do not increase traction any whatsoever. They do not cause traction loss as quickly on asphalt as they will on dirt. There's a lot of things out there that will accomplish that feat, including wider tires, different tread pattern, the fact it's fucking asphalt and not dirt, etc...

Showing revolvers working well on an RTI ramp is not proving they work offroad... Again, there are lots of things that work freaking awesome on an RTI ramp (think half-elliptical springs), but are absolutely worthless when offroading.

The physics, as you so politely mention, are not on your side. Flip back a few pages and re-read when I explained the physics to you. You didn't get it then, and you still don't get it now. I'm not a physics teacher, and I don't have the time nor the patience to teach you dynamics. I laid it out as simply as I could; that's as good a description as I can give 'ya.

Sorry if it's not good enough for you to understand. However, my limited abilities in explaining things I know do not make them wrong; just means I can't explain it worth crap.